School Boards Promoting Homosexuality?

[Michael Hardner]

8 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

1. Your opinion only.

2. Mom and Dad were not sexual objects, when I was a kid.

3. So what is wrong with saying everybody then.

 

1. Any opinion on the 'goal' of flying a flag is subjective, to at least a certain degree.  It's a representation of LGBTQ as a thing in the world, I think everyone would agree.  Beyond that, one could say that it represents respect, or tolerance, or it's promoting the lifestyle but these are interpretations.
2. Neither are mom and mom.
3. Because it's impossible to exclude "everybody".  People who used to be excluded, punished and attacked need a welcome mat, at least for awhile until it's understood that they're part of the community.

[Michael Hardner]

8 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

1. It's not the governments place to moralize, or attempt to actively shape Canadian morals. They should provide the legislative framework, nothing more.

2. Otherwise, you run into a situation in democracy where each time a government flips, the new government imposes it's own vision of morality by reversing the other's trends, as we've seen in this country already.

3. Look at Ontario.

4. The government has no business in the bedrooms of Canadians. Create the framework and set the standards for promoting true equality, and let the chips fall where they may.

5. Really, all the inequality we have seen in Canada's past is directly the fault of the government of Canada, not the citizens.  So get lost.

 

1. I disagree 100% and always have.  Educating children has always meant more than teaching them memorizable facts, it has meant 'raising' them.  For people to stand on such a principle now is disingenuous IMO.  
2. Morality does not flip with governments, or easily at all.  It changes slowly over time with culture.  For those who are uneasy with the change, it's difficult.  
3. What about it?
4. When we were brought up, we were taught 'civics' and the principles to make a healthy and functional society and democracy.  Tolerance is a foundation stone in a world with a multiplicity of new identities.  
5. Inequality, to me, means one thing above others: wealth and power inequality.  And these have almost nothing to do with sexual/gender identity.  There are rich and poor gay people...

[ExFlyer]

6 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. That's wrong.  Not sure where you are getting this.  I have family who work in the PUBLIC system and Christmas Parties, Christmas carols are all quite normal and enjoyed by all.  They might not sing 'God Rest Ye Merry Gentleman' but Santa and Rudolf are everywhere...
2. Are you talking about Religion class again ?  I don't know why you brought that up, still.  Of course the Catholic board can teach religion and reinforce homosexual acts as sinful, as they do with extramarital sex, abortion and so on.
3. Why ?  There's no reason why they can't express solidarity with kids who are born gay, to let them know that they will be accepted as who they are.  You need to explain in more detail if you need me to understand your objection.
4. That's very broad and there are probably countless counter-examples.  Does Remembrance Day celebrate the military lifestyle or contradict papal proclamations on peace ?  Some Christians decry Hallowe'en.  It's up to the schools what they want to set as a moral standard.
5. Ok

Michael, you are falling down your very own rabbit hole.

1. I have 3 grand kids that do not celebrate christmas in schools, public and catholic. I volunteer coach at a public high school and there are no chrismas celebrations. I understand that they can recognize secular religious activities and events.

2. I keep bringing up religion class at catholic schools because of your comment about teaching "morality, health, civics and personal growth" in catholic schools." and the only place where that may occur is in religion class.

3. Incorrect, the should not single out "gay" kids in any way. Even the  gay  community would not like gay kids singled out. Besides it is a LGBTQ+ flag, not just gay.

4. Remembrance day?? I do hope you are aware and know that Remembrance day "was originally called “Armistice Day” to commemorate armistice agreement that ended the First World War on Monday, November 11, 1918, at 11 a.m." and nothing to do with military lifestyle, let alone with papal proclamations.    And Halloween? really? And no Michael, it is not up to the schools to decided what they set as a moral standard. they are governed and controlled by Provincial Government rules and regulations. Schools have to be neutral and non

Lastly, judging by the comments to your posts, you seem to be alone in your convictions of this topic, by not just the far right but by left and center folks as well. I suspect there is a deeper personal reason for your hard stand.

OK?

 

[Michael Hardner]

6 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

1. I have 3 grand kids that do not celebrate christmas in schools, public and catholic. I volunteer coach at a public high school and there are no chrismas celebrations. I understand that they can recognize secular religious activities and events.

2. I keep bringing up religion class at catholic schools because of your comment about teaching "morality, health, civics and personal growth" in catholic schools." and the only place where that may occur is in religion class.

3. Incorrect, the should not single out "gay" kids in any way. Even the  gay  community would not like gay kids singled out. Besides it is a LGBTQ+ flag, not just gay.

4. Remembrance day?? I do hope you are aware and know that Remembrance day "was originally called “Armistice Day” to commemorate armistice agreement that ended the First World War on Monday, November 11, 1918, at 11 a.m." and nothing to do with military lifestyle, let alone with papal proclamations.    And Halloween? really? And no Michael, it is not up to the schools to decided what they set as a moral standard. they are governed and controlled by Provincial Government rules and regulations. Schools have to be neutral and non

5. Lastly, judging by the comments to your posts, you seem to be alone in your convictions of this topic, by not just the far right but by left and center folks as well.

6. I suspect there is a deeper personal reason for your hard stand.

 

 

1. My experience is contrary to this.  I suspect it varies by education district.  I have friends and family who have taught in various schools around Toronto and nobody much cares here.  I suspect it's because immigrants like Christmas at least as the secular holiday that it has de facto been for a long time.
2. I disagree that 'morality, civics and personal growth' are only taught in Catholic schools.  How can you even say that ?
3. I disagree with all of this.
4. You clearly want to schools to decide the moral standard of not supporting LGBTQ by flying the rainbow flag.  And, again, they have taught morality at least indirectly since forever.  It's impossible not to.
5. If you are trying to imply that my position is fringe, I found a survey of parents from last fall - and 78.8% in Ontario favour gay-straight alliance clubs in schools, across all school boards.
https://www.osta-aeco.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/2011_ospes_report_en.pdf
6. What is your suspicion specifically ?  I myself try not to speculate on the inner feelings of people who opine on such subject, as it's merely guesswork.  I am also close to people whose opinions on such things are all over the map and respect all viewpoints of those who are trying to create the best situation for students.

[OftenWrong]

40 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Neither are mom and mom.

I would also expect gay parents not to flaunt their sexuality in the presence of young children.

Your attempt to compare gay rights flag to parenting little kids is a failure. This is now boring.

[Michael Hardner]

4 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

1. I would also expect gay parents not to flaunt their sexuality in the presence of young children.

2. Your attempt to compare gay rights flag to parenting little kids is a failure. This is now boring.

1. I have never witnessed parents flaunting their sexuality...
2. "Mom and Dad were not sexual objects, when I was a kid."  What was that ?  Gay people exist and the message that parents now understand is that the community is better if we make it clear to the 20% who don't want to acknowledge that that we're there for them.  It's not about sex but love.  It's pretty normal and boring, and if a family has a single Lesbian mom or two nobody cares about that any more than we care what a straight couple does at night.  It's actually not even controversial to most people anymore, I find.  It's just the loud minority who is trying to change direction right now IMO.

[ExFlyer]

24 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. My experience is contrary to this.  I.....

4. You clearly want to schools to decide the moral standard of not supporting LGBTQ by flying the rainbow flag.  And, again, they have taught morality at least indirectly since forever.  It's impossible not to.
....

This is my biggest and only disagreement.

I do not want and cannot condone schools to decide moral situations or standards at all. That is a parental, family and/or religious leaders responsibility entirely. Schools must remain neutral.

There is no curriculum for morality and if it is being taught, it is by individual teachers opinions and that, is absolutely wrong.

My opinions have been expressed and I have no more to add.
See you in the next discussion

[Michael Hardner]

14 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

 

1.  I do not want and cannot condone schools to decide moral situations or standards at all. That is a parental, family and/or religious leaders responsibility entirely. Schools must remain neutral.

2. There is no curriculum for morality and if it is being taught, it is by individual teachers opinions and that, is absolutely wrong.

3. My opinions have been expressed and I have no more to add. See you in the next discussion

1. I get it, but sometimes it's impossible for the schools to not set a moral standard.  In this case saying nothing is picking a side.  Also Catholic schools, to your point about their difference from the public system, are created specifically to imbue Christian and Catholic values into their students.  To me, empathizing with the downtrodden, the sinners, the marginalized is central to the Christian ethic.
2. But it's inescapable.  What happens when a student raises their hand and asks a tough question about Remembrance Day, that speaks to individual, community, Christian, Catholic values ?  Do you expect the teacher to say nothing ?  I think in this minefield, it's easier to say that the teacher should be held to account for teaching things that are clearly - clearly now - against those overlapping values.  I asked my religion teacher, when I was a lad, if atheists who led a good life would go to heaven.  The teacher issued a non-answer but also... a response that challenged me to assess scripture, and the thoughts and edicts of others to come up with an idea on my own.  
3.  I appreciate your thoughts very much thank you.

[OftenWrong]

51 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. I have never witnessed parents flaunting their sexuality...
2. "Mom and Dad were not sexual objects, when I was a kid."  What was that ?  Gay people exist and the message that parents now understand is that the community is better if we make it clear to the 20% who don't want to acknowledge that that we're there for them.  It's not about sex but love.  It's pretty normal and boring, and if a family has a single Lesbian mom or two nobody cares about that any more than we care what a straight couple does at night.  It's actually not even controversial to most people anymore, I find.  It's just the loud minority who is trying to change direction right now IMO.

I didn’t say there is an issue with being gay, or professional teaching children sex ed.

Look, your points are exploited such that there is nothing more to add. Just let it go.

You are wrong.

 

[Michael Hardner]

6 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

1. I didn’t say there is an issue with being gay, or professional teaching children sex ed.

2. Look, your points are exploited such that there is nothing more to add. Just let it go.

3. You are wrong.

 

1. I know.  To me it's about telling gay children and their families, or straight children with gay parents that they are accepted as they are.  It's a social lesson.
2. Ok - I appreciate that.  I don't think I have any more to ask unless someone posts some new points that need to be addressed.
3. I am right.

[OftenWrong]

10 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

I am right.

Only in your own mind. The thread asks what people think.

Therefore my opinion still stands, resolute.

[Michael Hardner]

13 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Therefore my opinion still stands, resolute.

Two opinions. Diametrically opposed.

All we have to assess them is the rationales we posted.  As it should be.

[Zeitgeist]

There is no justification for putting up symbols in schools advocating for certain sexual lifestyles.

There are many ways to show compassion towards students who feel marginalized because of their sexual orientation and/or identity.

Hanging gay pride flags outside schools is advocating for certain sexual lifestyles.  There’s no way to avoid this interpretation.  Most children can’t make the kinds of nuanced interpretations that Hardner is making.

I’m not sure what’s happening in other provinces, but the government of Ontario is allowing the grooming of young children in certain sexual behaviours when it allows the flying of LGBTQ+ flags outside schools.

 

Edited May 30, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[OftenWrong]

51 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

All we have to assess them is the rationales we posted.  As it should be.

Some of which you didn't address. Oh well.

[Michael Hardner]

51 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Some of which you didn't address. Oh well.

Sorry I didn't realize - what did I miss!?

[West]

So just saw today that the lunatics are out in full force trying to shut down Christian schools because they may not support left wing ideology on homosexuality. The schools are separate and there's no evidence children are being punished for being gay, yet these weirdos are still pushing for defunding the schools. 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/sask-religious-independent-school-funding-anti-lgbtq-1.6498368

Of course the looney at the cbc is all over this ?

 

 

 

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, West said:

So just saw today that the lunatics are out in full force trying to shut down Christian schools because they may not support left wing ideology on homosexuality. The schools are separate and there's no evidence children are being punished for being gay, yet these weirdos are still pushing for defunding the schools. 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/sask-religious-independent-school-funding-anti-lgbtq-1.6498368

Of course the looney at the cbc is all over this ?

 

 

 

The loonies want to turn children into sex objects.  They’re grooming.  I guess they want to criminalize parents for opposing the grooming.  

[West]

31 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

The loonies want to turn children into sex objects.  They’re grooming.  I guess they want to criminalize parents for opposing the grooming.  

It's really disgusting isn't it? If you say you don't want to teach the SOGI nonsense they'll come after you. 

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

The loonies want to turn children into sex objects.  They’re grooming.  I guess they want to criminalize parents for opposing the grooming.  

If you use the term 'grooming' you absolutely lose credibility on this topic with reasonable people.  

It implies that anybody who wants sex education or LGBTQ positive instruction is a child molestor.

Just toxic. 

[Zeitgeist]

10 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

If you use the term 'grooming' you absolutely lose credibility on this topic with reasonable people.  

It implies that anybody who wants sex education or LGBTQ positive instruction is a child molestor.

Just toxic. 

Advocating for any kind of sexual lifestyle among young children is grooming.  Toxic alright.  

[Michael Hardner]

10 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Advocating for any kind of sexual lifestyle among young children is grooming.  Toxic alright.  

Except they don't do that, as as rule.  Keep yourself happy with your sex paranoia though, our parents group will be doing everything we can to subvert your kind....

[West]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

If you use the term 'grooming' you absolutely lose credibility on this topic with reasonable people.  

It implies that anybody who wants sex education or LGBTQ positive instruction is a child molestor.

Just toxic. 

Not a child molester just wierd. Why you folks have such an obsession with ramming sex into schools, especially elementary schools, is bizarre  

Edited June 23, 2022 by West

[Michael Hardner]

13 minutes ago, West said:

 Why you folks have such an obsession with ramming sex into schools, especially elementary schools, is bizarre  

We're able to discuss curriculum without accusing people of being child molestors.

[West]

5 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

We're able to discuss curriculum without accusing people of being child molestors.

Let kids be kids

[dialamah]

33 minutes ago, West said:

Let kids be kids

What about those kids who know they are different?  They don't get to be kids, they get to be freaks because their "kind" can't be talked about- except in the context of being unacceptable.