War In Ukraine

[Aristides]

8 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Is it really? I already explained why I think it's different this time.

Kinda like the US taking a back seat during WWII, but happy to provide enough resources to keep the fighting going.

Yes it is, Ukrainians are doing the fighting and dieing and they aren't doing it for the US.

[OftenWrong]

14 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Yes it is, Ukrainians are doing the fighting and dieing and they aren't doing it for the US.

Not overtly, but it benefits the US. Classic superpower war by proxy. They can keep the war going for years.

[Aristides]

44 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Not overtly, but it benefits the US. Classic superpower war by proxy. They can keep the war going for years.

Ukraine is fighting for its life. It's people are fighting and dieing to save their countrty. To say it is for the US is an insult to every Ukrainian.

[Contrarian]

8 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

1. Much of this is off topic. Prove I've only lived here my entire life. 

2.My message is primarily to protect Canada from descending into Russia. Or the Ukraine, or China. Or America for that matter.

3.. Ukraine existed under USSR for a long time, and things were peaceful. If I lived there I might prefer that time to raise my family, better than what we have now.

4. That could be debatable, but the constant influx of cash and weaponry certainly ensures a prolonged war. 

Number 3 proves number 1. Clearly you are a spoiled North American or born in the West somewhere, only someone like that could make a statement such as this.  

"Ukraine existed under USSR for a long time and things were peaceful. " 

😄 

Do you have any idea about the history in that region? how the Ukrainians were considered ever since the Tsar's time second class citizens. Stalin escalated it, leading an exterminating campaign, this is why they ate last or did not eat, they were considered lower in the Empire/USSR, and put down always through discrimination and abuse. Due to this, for a brief period they made an alliance with Hitler. When they realised that Hitler was the same as Stalin in criminality, they turned their weapons against both.

Do you think that Ukrainians don't want to fight and Zelenskyy is in a conspiracy to make them fight?

---> The Ukrainians and the Russians are like the Israelis and Palestinians when it comes to hatred lavel, but you won't understand this unless you lived in those areas or know some detailed history. 

In my opinion, number 3 shows also that old supporters of the Soviet Empire are coming out of the woodwork aside from the usual Putin right wing populist fans in the West. 

The fairy tale that if you lived there, would be more peaceful for raising a family, where did you get these ideas from? A movie, Das Kapital, or other books? 😄 The closest system to the USSR at that time, you can experience it, Belarus might be too nationalistic for you, so first fly to Beijing and then ask someone to take you to North Korea. 

In my final estimation, your grievances for the current political class in the West is what is driving this romanticising of the Soviet system, which is just an illusion. One thinks the grass is greener on the other side, until they get there and want back. Lucky for majority of us, that system is forever gone. 

Latest Report: 

At least 20 were killed and more than 60 were injured, when a missile struck an apartment complex in Dnipro, according to the region’s governor. Ukrainian forces say their air defenses destroyed 25 of the 38 missiles launched across the country today, which mostly targeted civilian infrastructure.

Britain has now become the first country to announce it will give western battle tanks to Ukraine as Russian assaults show no sign of slowing.

Video (player preview turned off to help Moonbox's eyes): 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPtlQkOtlPw

Edited January 15 by Contrarian

[Nationalist]

7 hours ago, Aristides said:

Ukraine is fighting for its life. It's people are fighting and dieing to save their countrty. To say it is for the US is an insult to every Ukrainian.

Is it?

[OftenWrong]

You people are looking at this from a geo-political perspective, which is at the top level and most obvious. Yes, we all know about those things. What I'm suggesting is from a very personal individual perspective, especially for people who are raising families, they of course just want the war to end. It may not matter what flag is flying over their parliament, to them it's an abstract concept. They need safety and food, basic necessities. I bet many of them are willing to even learn Russian...  

But not die for some ideal, that is largely important to whom? I told you whom. More than the Ukraine. More than their own interests, force-feeding them on war because it benefits the great powers.

Is it right for other nations to involve themselves in such as way as to keep elevating the conflict, or should they be only involved in doing the opposite? That is, f*ckin de-escalation.

[Contrarian]

40 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

You people are looking at this from a geo-political perspective, which is at the top level and most obvious. Yes, we all know about those things. What I'm suggesting is from a very personal individual perspective, especially for people who are raising families, they of course just want the war to end. It may not matter what flag is flying over their parliament, to them it's an abstract concept. They need safety and food, basic necessities. I bet many of them are willing to even learn Russian...  

I disagree. People that live in those areas understand what the KGB (now FSB) system means for the next 100 years if it gets terrain there.

Is not only about food and basic needs now, the apparatus is like cancer, intellectuals will be targeted to be replaced by loyalists, private sector will be asked to be loyal to Moscow and the justice system will also be run remotely from the Kremlin.

An Ukrainian or an Eastern European under a KGB system would understand what that means for future generations. Practical experience is called. 

This idea that only Zelenskyy controls the fight is conspiracy ran by fringe sympatizers. Is because you don't understand how deep is tribal hatred there.

Typical of a Westerner that lived in a democracy his whole life.

= )

Edited January 15 by Contrarian

[Nationalist]

41 minutes ago, Contrarian said:

I disagree. People that live in those areas understand what the KGB (now FSB) system means for the next 100 years if it gets terrain there.

Is not only about food and basic needs now, the apparatus is like cancer, intellectuals will be targeted to be replaced by loyalists, private sector will be asked to be loyal to Moscow and the justice system will also be run remotely from the Kremlin.

Hmm...sounds quite a bit like Zelinsky's government. 

[Contrarian]

12 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Hmm...sounds quite a bit like Zelinsky's government. 

I can guarantee you if Canada would be invaded, you would not care one bit if Trudeau starts arresting Russian sympathisers or even closing Russian churches for having political connections with Patriarch Kirill, codename Mikhailov, former KGB officer, now leader of Orthodox Russian Church. Should I remind what allies did in WW2 during wartime here at home? 

but because is Ukraine, and the Redacted source, which is also being circulated by FSB sympathisers on this board and on Australian boards, has reached into your head, whatever you want to believe. 

I have issues with Zelenskyy's foreign policy, power got to his head, and he started messing around the world politics, but internally, he is doing what a wartime president needs to do. I think if he did not have the backing of his people, he would not be President now. 

and France, Turkey are helping in deescalation. 

as for the US to allow Putin to win the war, as long as the Ukrainians want to fight, the US can not allow this war to be won by Russia. It will send a dangerous message to Beijing is my estimation. 

Edited January 15 by Contrarian

[Aristides]

1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

You people are looking at this from a geo-political perspective, which is at the top level and most obvious. Yes, we all know about those things. What I'm suggesting is from a very personal individual perspective, especially for people who are raising families, they of course just want the war to end. It may not matter what flag is flying over their parliament, to them it's an abstract concept. They need safety and food, basic necessities. I bet many of them are willing to even learn Russian...  

But not die for some ideal, that is largely important to whom? I told you whom. More than the Ukraine. More than their own interests, force-feeding them on war because it benefits the great powers.

Is it right for other nations to involve themselves in such as way as to keep elevating the conflict, or should they be only involved in doing the opposite? That is, f*ckin de-escalation.

It isn't abstract at all. Ukrainians know very well what it is like to live under Russian then Soviet oppression. Why do you think they are fighting so hard for their freedom?

 

Holodomor

It's only abstract to pampered, entitled people who have no idea what it is like.

Edited January 15 by Aristides

[Moonbox]

11 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Is it really? I already explained why I think it's different this time.

You can come up with whatever explanations you like, but none of that means much when we see a nation 1/4 the size of its invader successfully fight them off.  That speaks to their motivation, compared to the conscripts who can barely move forward without a general coming to the front line to yell at and threaten his subordinates.

11 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Kinda like the US taking a back seat during WWII, but happy to provide enough resources to keep the fighting going.

When Russia leaves Ukraine, the fighting will be over.  That's how long the fighting will keep going.  

[Nationalist]

10 minutes ago, Contrarian said:

I can guarantee you if Canada would be invaded, you would not care one bit if Trudeau starts arresting Russian sympathisers or even closing Russian churches for having political connections with Patriarch Kirill, codename Mikhailov, former KGB officer, now leader of Orthodox Russian Church. Should I remind what allies did in WW2 during wartime here at home? 

but because is Ukraine, and the Redacted source, which is also being circulated by FSB sympathisers on this board and on Australian boards, has reached into your head, whatever you want to believe. 

I have issues with Zelenskyy's foreign policy, power got to his head, and he started messing around the world politics, but internally, he is doing what a wartime president needs to do. I think if he did not have the backing of his people, he would not be President now. 

and France, Turkey are helping in deescalation. 

as for the US to allow Putin to win the war, as long as the Ukrainians want to fight, the US can not allow this war to be won by Russia. It will send a dangerous message to Beijing is my estimation. 

Who says I sympathise with Russian spies? Or any spies as far as that's concerned? You? The Libbie "pose"? That's some wild accusation. But as is the norm...it's just smoke and mirrors.

I can guarantee you, that if Canada had an ethnic province that was not the majority of ethnicity in Canada, but demanded to be allowed to be their ethnicity, Canada would not bomb the he'll out of them. Instead we would make Quebec...what it is.

I get your hatred for Russia. But letting your hatred cloud your judgements and dictate your ideals, is not terribly "Canadian"...is it.

[Moonbox]

Neither is cheerleading the invasion of a sovereign nation.  🤷‍♂️

[Contrarian]

42 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

I get your hatred for Russia. But letting your hatred cloud your judgements and dictate your ideals, is not terribly "Canadian"...is it.

I don't hate Russian or Chinese people, just their systems. I ridicule them really (the systems), and people that try to defend them (the systems).

What is Canadian? To write that you want Russia to win the war in Ukraine? So you want one of the biggest adversaries of the West to win the war in Ukraine?

or to support insurrectionists in the USA, not even your own country?

how about spreading russian disinformation through random youtube channels? Is that Canadian?

Again, we are going in circles.

You can't lecture me on how to be a "Canadian" when you have such resume.

Edited January 15 by Contrarian

[Nationalist]

3 minutes ago, Contrarian said:

I don't hate Russian or Chinese people, just their systems. I ridicule them really (the system), and people that try to defend them.

What is Canadian? To write that you want Russia to win the war in Ukraine? So you want one of the biggest adversaries of the West to win the war in Ukraine?

or to support insurrectionists in the USA, not even your own country?

how about spreading russian disinformation? Is that Canadian?

Again, we are going in circles.

You can't lecture me about being a "Canadian" when you have such resume.

Huh...perhaps this is why Poland is such a mess?

Have I said I want Russia to win? Or have I said it's always been inevitable without direct NATO involvement and that this "proxy war" is disgusting and NATO should stay out of it?

Here's an interesting question. Is Russia an adversary of The West...or is The West an adversary of Russia?

What insurrectionists? Give the Libbie fear-porn a rest. The only real serious crime perpetrated that day, was a cop shooting an unarmed protester for...trespassing.

So this is YOUR resume son. A resume full of biased assumptions and biased conclusions. 

[Contrarian]

21 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Huh...perhaps this is why Poland is such a mess?

Have I said I want Russia to win? Or have I said it's always been inevitable without direct NATO involvement and that this "proxy war" is disgusting and NATO should stay out of it?

Here's an interesting question. Is Russia an adversary of The West...or is The West an adversary of Russia?

What insurrectionists? Give the Libbie fear-porn a rest. The only real serious crime perpetrated that day, was a cop shooting an unarmed protester for...trespassing.

So this is YOUR resume son. A resume full of biased assumptions and biased conclusions. 

Excellent so I am pro-NATO, pro-law as under the law, the FBI is still looking for some of the traitors:

https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/capitol-violence

and also your quote is famous on this thread when you said you want Russia to win against the Ukrainians.

Logic says I have the solid resume.

Go back and listen to some more from Redacted, it will make it for sure, true, "diplomat." 🤣

Edited January 15 by Contrarian

[Moonbox]

5 minutes ago, Contrarian said:

and also your quote is famous on this thread when you said you want Russia to win against the Ukrainians.

This one?  

Yeah it's a gem.  

Edited January 15 by Moonbox

[Nationalist]

8 hours ago, Contrarian said:

Excellent so I am pro-NATO, pro-law as under the law, the FBI is still looking for some of the traitors:

https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/capitol-violence

and also your quote is famous on this thread when you said you want Russia to win against the Ukrainians.

Logic says I have the solid resume.

Go back and listen to some more from Redacted, it will make it for sure, true, "diplomat." 🤣

And If Russia and Ukraine make a peace treaty how will you treat that?

Edited January 16 by Nationalist

[athos]

Putin: "If someone decides to destroy Russia, we will destroy the world in response because a world without Russia isn't worth preserving"

[Contrarian]

11 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

And If Russia and Ukraine make a peace treaty how will you treat that?

as Macron said: France will support any peaceful resolution as long as the Ukrainians agree.

Is their house that got invaded.

If your house got invaded, would you want other people to tell you, in your own house, when to stop fighting an intruder?

now that has to be realistic.

If Zelenskyy will want Crimea too, I have an intuition that NATO will cut the weapons, as then Nuclear War needs to be avoided.

@athostovarisch, came out in force this evening. You belong in a different era my friend, the era when 10 men ran around a fire and chanted for the strongest of the tribe or the most criminal of the tribe I might say.

Come to reality. Is not looking good for Putin and the neo-nazi coats robber from Wagner with the latest Western weaponery coming in.

Edited January 16 by Contrarian

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, Contrarian said:

as Macron said: France will support any peaceful resolution as long as the Ukrainians agree.

Is their house that got invaded.

If your house got invaded, would you want other people to tell you, in your own house, when to stop fighting an intruder?

now that has to be realistic.

If Zelenskyy will want Crimea too, I have an intuition that NATO will cut the weapons, as then Nuclear War needs to be avoided.

@athostovarisch, came out in force this evening. You belong in a different era my friend, the era when 10 men ran around a fire and chanted for the strongest of the tribe or the most criminal of the tribe I might say.

Come to reality. Is not looking good for Putin and the neo-nazi coats robber from Wagner with the latest Western weaponery coming in.

Did you watch the clip I posted? Looks like the Ukrainians are questioning what's happening.

[Contrarian]

Discussion on Deutsche Welle TV: 

Britain and Poland have confirmed that they will send modern heavy tanks to Ukraine. While the US, Germany and France have also promised armored vehicles for the first time since the war began in February. "The time of weapons taboo has passed", that's what Ukraine's foreign minister Dmytro Kuleba wrote in a Facebook post this week. He stressed that this year Ukraine will finally receive arms from its allies which it failed to receive last year.  But Ukraine also says it's not enough. Meanwhile fighting continues in the region of Donbas for the last four months.

On To the Point they are asking asking: Tanks for Ukraine: Is the West joining the war?

Video Debate: 

https://youtu.be/UbD5JT3OkFw?t=36

Edited January 16 by Contrarian

[Moonbox]

Why are we asking this question now?  I don't see what handing over some tanks changes.  There's no question that thee West is directly supporting Ukraine, and wants to help defeat Russia.  The distinguishing factor is that NATO isn't attacking Russia directly, nor are NATO troops firing on Russia's dicrepit army from NATO territory.  

There's not much logic to the idea that MBTs push the envelope if HIMARS didn't.  The West can continue to call Russia's bluff on "escalation", because Russia can't afford to escalate anything.    

 

Edited January 16 by Moonbox

[Aristides]

Russia's invasion was the escalation that started this whole thing.

[Aristides]

14 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Did you watch the clip I posted? Looks like the Ukrainians are questioning what's happening.

R is a Putin mouthpiece, just look at their website.