War In Ukraine

[Dougie93]

12 minutes ago, Aristides said:

I was wondering about that as well. Obviously they have a plan. Maybe there is a way of ground launching them using a rocket booster to get them up to speed.

I just went and checked

the NATO MiG-29's have been modernized

they have the MIL-Std 1553 databus with the NATO STANAG mission computers & stores management

[Aristides]

So if they launch them just inside the Ukraine border they will be able to hit targets 250 KM inside Russia. Sounds useful.

There must be some parked Tornado's somewhere which can carry two of them.

[Aristides]

250 km is the export version's range, the ones used by the French and Brits have a 560 km range.

[Dougie93]

47 minutes ago, Aristides said:

250 km is the export version's range, the ones used by the French and Brits have a 560 km range.

the payload is a 990kg BROACH penetrating warhead

so it's a bunker buster by role

[Dougie93]

57 minutes ago, Aristides said:

So if they launch them just inside the Ukraine border they will be able to hit targets 250 KM inside Russia. Sounds useful.

if it's the 560 km range version

that could strike Moscow from the Ukraine border in the northeast, Moscow is about 500 km from there

[Dougie93]

1 hour ago, Aristides said:

There must be some parked Tornado's somewhere which can carry two of them.

if they had Tornado, they could strike Crimea directly

fly out over the Black Sea and infil by that way

I wouldn't waste Tornado on stand off launches if I was the Ukrainians

Tornado would be more useful as a precision strike bomber

[August1991]

On 5/11/2023 at 10:35 AM, CdnFox said:

This seems an odd place to bring that up - what would you change or reinterpret?

Some Americans believe that the 2nd Amendment ensures that "America" is "civilized".

As if people in various parts of Europe are civilised.

=====

This current minor civil war in Eastern Europe is possibly a prelude to a new World War.

 

 

[CdnFox]

38 minutes ago, August1991 said:

Some Americans believe that the 2nd Amendment ensures that "America" is "civilized".

As if people in various parts of Europe are civilised.

=====

This current minor civil war in Eastern Europe is possibly a prelude to a new World War.

 

 

I don't see the connection. If america is 'civilized' (and i think there's room for debate there) and europe is not civilized then wouldn't that be some sort of possible indicator that they were right to think that?

[Aristides]

 

Germany becomes second largest contributor of arms to Ukraine with new package worth over 2.7 billion Euros.

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/russia-ukraine-war-counteroffensive-1.6843028

[Dougie93]

33 minutes ago, Aristides said:

 

Germany becomes second largest contributor of arms to Ukraine with new package worth over 2.7 billion Euros.

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/russia-ukraine-war-counteroffensive-1.6843028

in the context of military spending,  2.7 billion euros is not that much

in peacetime, Canada spends that every 90 days

meanwhile, the thing the Ukrainians really need is NATO combat aircraft

to wit, just give them the Tornado's already

the Tornado's were already paid for long ago

and they are scheduled for retirement from German service anyways

the war is not going to be won in the trenches

to only way to bring this conflict to an end, is with airpower

Edited May 14, 2023 by Dougie93

[Aristides]

36 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

in the context of military spending,  2.7 billion euros is not that much

in peacetime, Canada spends that every 90 days

meanwhile, the thing the Ukrainians really need is NATO combat aircraft

to wit, just give them the Tornado's already

the Tornado's were already paid for long ago

and they are scheduled for retirement from German service anyways

the war is not going to be won in the trenches

to only way to bring this conflict to an end, is with airpower

That's 2.7 billion in equipment alone. Canada does not spend that on equipment every 90 days.

I don't know why NATO is dragging its feet on aircraft. Germany and Italy still operating some Tornados but they are scheduled for replacement soon. The UK retired all of theirs in 2019.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Aristides

[CdnFox]

3 minutes ago, Aristides said:

That's 2.7 billion in equipment alone. Canada does not spend that on equipment every 90 days.

I don't know why NATO is dragging its feet on aircraft.

And it's 2.7 billion from one country. They get help from a lot.
You know what they say - a few billion here, a few billion there and pretty soon you're talking about real money

 

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, Aristides said:

That's 2.7 billion in equipment alone. Canada does not spend that on equipment every 90 days.

none the less, that's only enough to buy one armoured regiment complete

it's not putting the Ukrainians over the top to end the war, like F-16's & Tornado's would be

[Dougie93]

36 minutes ago, Aristides said:

I don't know why NATO is dragging its feet on aircraft.

well again, the most infuriating aspect is that these planes are already paid for

most of them are just sitting in storage already which cost money

the ones not in storage cost exponentially more money to maintain

F-16AM/BM, F/A-18AM/BM, Tornado GR.4, Mirage 2000

so not only would these planes make the difference in terms of bring the war to an end

it would actually save NATO countries money to hand them over to the Ukrainians

[Nationalist]

59 minutes ago, Contrarian said:

? ⬆️ The invaders, Russian forces, launched an intense air raid on Kyiv:

Errr...so much for the dirty bombs England sent to Ukraine.

Gee...maybe now would be a novel time to negotiate a peace deal?

[Aristides]

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

Errr...so much for the dirty bombs England sent to Ukraine.

Gee...maybe now would be a novel time to negotiate a peace deal?

What dirty bombs?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61778433

Edited May 16, 2023 by Aristides

[Nationalist]

5 minutes ago, Aristides said:

What dirty bombs?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61778433

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65032671

Uranium loaded bombs. Oh the Brits do their best tap dance to excuse it but...these are radio active weapons. If this type of weapon is actually used, I have a feeling the gloves will come off and Europe will wind up being fried.

Is that the outcome you want?

[Aristides]

Depleted uranium shells are not dirty bombs, almost all the radioactivity has been removed. Depleted uranium is a very dense metal which makes it ideal for penetrating armour and is also used to reinforce armour plating. It has been used since the Gulf War in  91.

[CdnFox]

7 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65032671

Uranium loaded bombs. Oh the Brits do their best tap dance to excuse it but...these are radio active weapons. If this type of weapon is actually used, I have a feeling the gloves will come off and Europe will wind up being fried.

Is that the outcome you want?

Dude - come on.  Those aren't "bombs".  those are anti tank penetrator rounds - they use depleated uranium because its heavier and harder than lead. THey put a very thin 40mm rod of the stuff in a sabot and shoot it out of a tank barrel to kill other tanks. It's been used for years - the us used it extensively in all of it's conflicts where it faced other tanks.

NOBODY is going to care if they're used now - putin may posture for his people but this is just a standard anti tank round that everyone uses.

[Nationalist]

6 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Dude - come on.  Those aren't "bombs".  those are anti tank penetrator rounds - they use depleated uranium because its heavier and harder than lead. THey put a very thin 40mm rod of the stuff in a sabot and shoot it out of a tank barrel to kill other tanks. It's been used for years - the us used it extensively in all of it's conflicts where it faced other tanks.

NOBODY is going to care if they're used now - putin may posture for his people but this is just a standard anti tank round that everyone uses.

I was unaware that radio active Uranium was being loaded into munitions. That's sick and I'm now doubly glad the Russians blew up all of comic-boy's new toys.

And...as I asked...wouldn't this be a good time for peace talks?

Edited May 16, 2023 by Nationalist

[Dougie93]

12 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Depleted uranium shells are not dirty bombs, almost all the radioactivity has been removed. Depleted uranium is a very dense metal which makes it ideal for penetrating armour and is also used to reinforce armour plating

indeed

and the Russians are employing similar DU rounds

125mm 3BM29/32/49/59 APFSDS

 

 

[CdnFox]

3 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

I was unaware that radio active Uranium was being loaded into munitions. That's sick and I'm now doubly glad the Russians blew up all of comic-boy's new toys.

well they've been around since the 80's as i recall, certainlly used in the 90's. And russia has them too btw. Everyone developed them, they're very very very effective against other tanks. The other material you sometimes see used is tungsten.  But they're ONLY good for fighting other tanks, there's no explosive in them or anything. So it's not like they'll be shelling cities with them or the like.

 

And i think you'll find that the "toys" probably weren't in the capital. I mean they know the russians regularly shell the city.

 

3 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

And...as I asked...wouldn't this be a good time for peace talks?

I don't think you'll convince the Ukrainians of that right now.  They're geared up and armoured up and trained up for their big offensive. I don't think they'll consider peace talks till that's over. If it goes well it would put them in a much much stronger position for negotiations. IF it fails they're not much worse off than they are now.

For them there's no benefit to starting talks right now until they see how their offensive goes.

[Nationalist]

3 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

well they've been around since the 80's as i recall, certainlly used in the 90's. And russia has them too btw. Everyone developed them, they're very very very effective against other tanks. The other material you sometimes see used is tungsten.  But they're ONLY good for fighting other tanks, there's no explosive in them or anything. So it's not like they'll be shelling cities with them or the like.

 

And i think you'll find that the "toys" probably weren't in the capital. I mean they know the russians regularly shell the city.

 

I don't think you'll convince the Ukrainians of that right now.  They're geared up and armoured up and trained up for their big offensive. I don't think they'll consider peace talks till that's over. If it goes well it would put them in a much much stronger position for negotiations. IF it fails they're not much worse off than they are now.

For them there's no benefit to starting talks right now until they see how their offensive goes.

And once the rod is exposed...who deals with that? No...this is sick.

I'd also be curious just how many Ukrainians really want this war to continue.

[Dougie93]

20 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

And...as I asked...wouldn't this be a good time for peace talks?

peace talks are a result of resoluton

one side or the other has to be brought to the table by force of arms

these conditions have to be imposed on the battlefield

Russia has launched into an aggressive war of total annihilation

if they wanted peace they would not have done that in the first place

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

And once the rod is exposed...who deals with that? No...this is sick.

the long rod penetrator is vaporized upon impact

the penetrator becomes super heated slag as it bursts through the armour