War In Ukraine

[Aristides]

4 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

And once the rod is exposed...who deals with that? No...this is sick.

I'd also be curious just how many Ukrainians really want this war to continue.

What rod? Depleted uranium is used to help shells penetrate armour and reinforce existing armour. It is used because of its density.  If it was highly radioactive it would be more dangerous to the people using the stuff.

[Nationalist]

4 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

peace talks are a result of resoluton

one side or the other has to be brought to the table by force of arms

these conditions have to be imposed on the battlefield

Russia has launched into an aggressive war of total annihilation

if they wanted peace they would not have done that in the first place

I sort o' doubt the Ukrainian people want this war to continue.

[Nationalist]

2 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

the long rod penetrator is vaporized upon impact

the penetrator becomes super heated slag as it bursts through the armour

Oh well...in that case...its doubly sick.

[Aristides]

Just now, Nationalist said:

Oh well...in that case...its doubly sick.

Sicker than using cluster munitions on civilians?

[CdnFox]

2 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

And once the rod is exposed...who deals with that? No...this is sick.

Well usually the guy who hauls off the blown up tank it's stuck in

There's no direct risk of excessive radiation. There IS a short term risk of the dust. Obviously a high speed super hard object smashing into another super hard object (remembering that tank armour isn't just steel anymore) is going to produce a certain amount of dust, and that is radio acvite enough that if you inhale it then it can have a very negative affect on a person.  Eventually it rains and that's all gone but while you're wrong to think ti's just some sort of general hazard for ever you're not wrong to say it does have some negative affect.

But so do regular bombs and such - put it this way, no matter what more citizens will be dead in Ukraine from Russian missiles than british DU rounds.

6 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

I'd also be curious just how many Ukrainians really want this war to continue.

That would be interesting to know. Obviously we're told that determination is high and they're all for continuing till victory but it's not like they're going to report anything else. They're not exactly holding large scale demonstrations against it or the like so i guess there's still at least modest support, but who can say?

[CdnFox]

6 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

the long rod penetrator is vaporized upon impact

the penetrator becomes super heated slag as it bursts through the armour

The urge to post a bunch of jokes about how i've known a few girls like that  is almost overwhelming

[Nationalist]

6 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Sicker than using cluster munitions on civilians?

Did they target civilians? Or were civilians near the arms and infrastructure buildings?

[Dougie93]

11 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

I sort o' doubt the Ukrainian people want this war to continue.

unfortunately the war is being imposed upon them by a hostile foreign power

[Dougie93]

13 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Oh well...in that case...its doubly sick.

a just war fought in self defence under UN Article 51

against a hostile invading foreign power bent on total annihilation

[Nationalist]

25 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Well usually the guy who hauls off the blown up tank it's stuck in

There's no direct risk of excessive radiation. There IS a short term risk of the dust. Obviously a high speed super hard object smashing into another super hard object (remembering that tank armour isn't just steel anymore) is going to produce a certain amount of dust, and that is radio acvite enough that if you inhale it then it can have a very negative affect on a person.  Eventually it rains and that's all gone but while you're wrong to think ti's just some sort of general hazard for ever you're not wrong to say it does have some negative affect.

But so do regular bombs and such - put it this way, no matter what more citizens will be dead in Ukraine from Russian missiles than british DU rounds.

That would be interesting to know. Obviously we're told that determination is high and they're all for continuing till victory but it's not like they're going to report anything else. They're not exactly holding large scale demonstrations against it or the like so i guess there's still at least modest support, but who can say?

OK here's my own personal problem with this. Among the numerous things I've done and seen in the IT world, one of them was a short contract to design a Solaris UNIX system that engineers could hang their nuclear control systems off of for Westinghouse. In doing so, I discovered that there's a 0.07% nuclear wastage from nuclear power plants that cannot be negated, so its deemed an "acceptable" risk. Some of that goes in to the water system through the cooling plants and some of it is accounted for by the cloths worn to work by the operators. This stuff gets into our food chain and is is generally considered a bad thing for living beings. This is one of the arguments anti-nuclear power folks howl about when protesting nuclear power. Yet these same fops also are willing to accept the firing of nuclear waste all over the place, because its a tank killer and because...Putin.

I wouldn't like this if Putin were using these weapons and I doubly don't like it when forces that are supposedly protecting my part of the world, use them.

As for the will of the Ukrainian public...we both know what Zelinski would do if they protested against his nice little cash-cow...I mean war.

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by Nationalist

[Nationalist]

10 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

a just war fought in self defence under UN Article 51

against a hostile invading foreign power bent on total annihilation

None of which tells us anything about what the Ukrainian people think.

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

None of which tells us anything about what the Ukrainian people think.

the will of a people is ultimately expressed by what their infantrymen are prepared to kill & die for

legio patria nostra

[Nationalist]

7 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

the will of a people is ultimately expressed by what their infantrymen are prepared to kill & die for

legio patria nostra

Oh come on Doug. We both know that's just nonsense.

[CdnFox]

23 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

OK here's my own personal problem with this. Among the numerous things I've done and seen in the IT world, one of them was a short contract to design a Solaris UNIX system that engineers could hang their nuclear control systems off of for Westinghouse. In doing so, I discovered that there's a 0.07% nuclear wastage from nuclear power plants that cannot be negated, so its deemed an "acceptable" risk. Some of that goes in to the water system through the cooling plants and some of it is accounted for by the cloths worn to work by the operators. This stuff gets into our food chain and is is generally considered a bad thing for living beings. This is one of the arguments anti-nuclear power folks howl about when protesting nuclear power. Yet these same fops also are willing to accept the firing of nuclear waste all over the place, because its a tank killer and because...Putin.

I wouldn't like this if Putin were using these weapons and I doubly don't like it when forces that are supposedly protecting my part of the world, use them.

As for the will of the Ukrainian public...we both know what Zelinski would do if they protested against his nice little cash-cow...I mean war.

 

Well, it's a valid concern.  I don't know that it's a BIGGER concern than all the OTHER problems caused by the war - a craptonne of people will get sick or die because of the war and that's just the way it is. And that will go on for a long time after the conflict ends, DU shells or not. War is really bad. And that's just the truth if we blame the Russians or the Ukrainians or nato or whatever.

And in a war both sides are going to tend to use the tools available to try to win.

[Nationalist]

8 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Well, it's a valid concern.  I don't know that it's a BIGGER concern than all the OTHER problems caused by the war - a craptonne of people will get sick or die because of the war and that's just the way it is. And that will go on for a long time after the conflict ends, DU shells or not. War is really bad. And that's just the truth if we blame the Russians or the Ukrainians or nato or whatever.

And in a war both sides are going to tend to use the tools available to try to win.

And because they are now talking about lobbing nuclear waste all over hell's half acre...maybe its time to put the brakes on and negotiate peace?

[Nationalist]

19 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

so long as their are Ukrainian infantrymen holding the line

they determine the fate of the nation

war measures, upon which you vote with your feet by running to the sound of the guns

They are not running to the sound of guns Doug. They're running from the conscription guys barging into schools and hauling off young men to the front.

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, Nationalist said:

They are not running to the sound of guns Doug. They're running from the conscription guys barging into schools and hauling off young men to the front.

Canada had conscription,  in both the First & Second World Wars

certainly facing total war, any government is reduced to desperate measures

I made myself subject to being hauled off at a moments notice

if one simply didn't report for morning PT in the Canadian Army

the chain of command would send the MP's to arrest you

RCMP warrant for desertion beyond there as necessary

[Nationalist]

6 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Canada had conscription,  in both the First & Second World Wars

certainly facing total war, any government is reduced to desperate measures

I made myself subject to being hauled off at a moments notice

if one simply didn't report for morning PT in the Canadian Army

the chain of command would send the MP's to arrest you

RCMP warrant for desertion beyond there as necessary

And so...how do you figure the Ukrainian people feel about all this pleasantry?

[Dougie93]

15 hours ago, Nationalist said:

And so...how do you figure the Ukrainian people feel about all this pleasantry?

I only judge by how many infantrymen run to the sound of the guns to obey the chain of command therein

because that is all that matters in the end, in the face of total war of annihilation

Edited May 17, 2023 by Dougie93

[Aristides]

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

Did they target civilians? Or were civilians near the arms and infrastructure buildings?

 

Did you bother to read the link I posted?

Using depleted uranium shells against tanks is barbaric but using cluster munitions against civilians is OK. 

Gotcha.

How many bombs, rockets, drones etc have been launched against Russian civilian targets?

Edited May 16, 2023 by Aristides

[Aristides]

23 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

They are not running to the sound of guns Doug. They're running from the conscription guys barging into schools and hauling off young men to the front.

So why are badly outnumbered Ukrainian conscripts doing so well and Russian conscripts doing so poorly?

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, Aristides said:

 

Did you bother to read the link I posted?

Using depleted uranium shells against tanks is barbaric but using cluster munitions against civilians is OK. 

Gotcha.

How many bombs, rockets, drones etc have been launched against Russian civilian targets?

From your link...

Quote

More than 120 countries have signed a treaty prohibiting the use of the weapons - though neither Russia or Ukraine are signatories.

Oh my...

Quote

At the site of one apparent cluster munition strike in Kharkiv, around a housing estate and playground in the Industrialnyi neighbourhood

In the industrial neighbourhood? Gee...what might be stored, made and/or repaired in an industrial neighbourhood?

 

[CdnFox]

12 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Quote

in the Industrialnyi neighbourhood

In the industrial neighbourhood?

I think the name of the residential district is 'industrialnyi'. not that it's an industrial district. That confused me too initially - i wondered why the hell they'd have a playground in an industrial district

[Nationalist]

2 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

I think the name of the residential district is 'industrialnyi'. not that it's an industrial district. That confused me too initially - i wondered why the hell they'd have a playground in an industrial district

I'd bet a bottle o' scotch it IS an industrial area with worker's housing very near by. Like across the street.

[CdnFox]

5 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

I'd bet a bottle o' scotch it IS an industrial area with worker's housing very near by. Like across the street.

It looks like it used to be back in the 30's but the factory for the area got shut down long ago.  Seems like it's just kind of a residential district now with the old plant still standing but decomissioned. Apperently it got shelled early on and burnt down.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrialnyi_District,_Kharkiv

whatever - i've never really been a fan of the cluster bomb ban anyway.  War is the worst kind of hell and civillians will always pay the highest price for it. If the russians targeted those areas i don't care what type of bomb it was, it's still a shitty thing to do. But that's why it's best not to have wars.

I don't think there's any real value comparing the 'moral merits' of one weapon's system over another until you get to the WMD's.