Ontario Court declares that the Ontario Math Proficiency Test is Unconstitutional

[myata]

9 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

Human Sciences are perverted by bad methodology, and badly interpreted by persons of authority who think a botched study is proof of bias. They have the opposite logical reasoning as the Enlightenment movement a few centuries ago. They do not believe in Empiricism; they have their minds already made and design pseudo-studies to prove their point rather than finding the truth. 

Yes but it's not just social science, pretty much any matter or subject that may have an essential impact is immediately politicized with interests trying to control the discussion and agenda. Have you seen even a trace of an attempt to have an objective unbiased discussion on Covid response and prospects?

[Yzermandius19]

17 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

And it's also that a math test result discrepancy isn't a proof of racism, at all. Certainly not when you compare the scores of races without controlling any other variable and having such unequal sample sizes across races. This is a farce masqueraded as a study. They reached their conclusion that racism is overwhelming when it comes to math exams before proving it.

there are disparities between individuals growing up in the same household

and that has fuck all to do with systemic oppression

there has never been no disparity in outcomes among different groups in human history

yet the woke believe that perfect equity is the natural state of affairs between different groups

and exploitation by the oppressor group against the oppressed group is the main reason for that, unless proven otherwise

all emotion and no logic from these dummies

Edited December 23, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[Michael Hardner]

39 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

1.  Please, enlighten me. Is there another reason to why there are discrepancies in math results across races to explain the gaps in between them?  

2 Having mathematically literate teacher is a plus for the students. Having a teacher with browner skin isn't a plus, it's neutral. At least in my view as a non-racist person.

1. Sorry I thought you meant " It is merit and competence in math that explains the success of the STUDENTS succeeding a math exam.  I'll explain that by 'good results' I meant better results for the students.  The part where you explain the gaps of success by races is lost on me.  Smaller sample size doesn't mean the statistics are wrong, so I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

2. You state that it's "your view" which means you are stating an opinion instead of objective data.  I accept that and disagree with your opinion.

[Benz]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

The part where you explain the gaps of success by races is lost on me.  

But, this is what the judge is saying. The judge observes that minorities fail the test more than others. The judge does not consider that the minorities are capable to cover the gap. Therefore, the outcome places the minorities into what he call, discrimination. His observations place a color on those minorities and there you go, the tests are out of sudden, racists.

It is a very narrowed point of view.

Now let's see it from another angle. If we put our observations further, we would probably notice that the minorities often coming from a background of community living in poverty and an environment of lower quality education in their sector. Therefore, if we address that problem from that angle, we would come to the conclusion that those schools need a better improvement of their teaching quality. If money is an issue, we could take measures to make sure those students have the same chances as the "white" ones do. Once we know every one starts on the basis and same chances, we would expect that the ratio of success is mostly the same for every one else.

The judge and you, prefer to avoid the test. Other people like me, prefer to make sure every one gets the same conditions to succeed the test. It's two opposite approaches. Yours is based on the race. You conclude that few races are inferiors, so the tests must be avoided because those people just cannot make it. Mine is rather a problem of education context and should be address as is.

Stating that the test is unconstitutional, is one of the biggest insult to intelligence one could make. It is super extra woke.

Edited December 23, 2021 by Benz

[QuebecOverCanada]

23 minutes ago, Benz said:

The judge and you, prefer to avoid the test. Other people like me, prefer to make sure every one gets the same conditions to succeed the test. It's two opposite approaches. Yours is based on the race. You conclude that few races are inferiors, so the tests must be avoided because those people just cannot make it. Mine is rather a problem of education context and should be address as is.

Stating that the test is unconstitutional, is one of the biggest insult to intelligence one could make. It is super extra woke.

Exactly the differences between wokes versus the Civil Rights Movement and the mainstream Left as a larger spectrum in general. The wokes look for equality of outcome, and a difference of outcome is always synonymous with unfairness while it doesn't have to be proven. It is guaranteed that any discrepancy, is unfairness, unjust. The Civil Rights Movement and the mainstream Left want equality of opportunity, which is desirable and actually is a levelled playing ground for everyone to be included. 

Edited December 23, 2021 by QuebecOverCanada

[Michael Hardner]

33 minutes ago, Benz said:

1) Therefore, the outcome places the minorities into what he call, discrimination. His observations place a color on those minorities and there you go, the tests are out of sudden, racists.

2) Therefore, if we address that problem from that angle, we would come to the conclusion that those schools need a better improvement of their teaching quality.

3)  Once we know every one starts on the basis and same chances, we would expect that the ratio of success is mostly the same for every one else.

4) The judge and you, prefer to avoid the test. Other people like me, prefer to make sure every one gets the same conditions to succeed the test.

5) It's two opposite approaches. Yours is based on the race. You conclude that few races are inferiors, so the tests must be avoided because those people just cannot make it.

6) Stating that the test is unconstitutional, is one of the biggest insult to intelligence one could make. It is super extra woke.

1) Discrimination and racism aren't the same thing.  Some people may think that this discrimination is racism, because it wasn't immediately viewed by the system as a problem by those who own the system, or the public.  And that's evidenced here with people here who hear that something is being changed and instantly react to decide that their definition of 'merit' vetoes anything else.

2) Ok.  Or maybe the system doesn't address their needs and doesn't provide good outcomes.

3) So why isn't this happening then ?

4) It's teacher candidates who are failing the test, not students.  If you want to fix the system so that certain races succeed equally at the math test, it's a long term solution.

5) I wouldn't say that they can't make it, nor that they are inferior.  They are failing the test and that is all.

6) It's a legal opinion, not a fact.  You shouldn't feel insulted.  Educators look for practical outcomes, and for this I think the decision makes sense.

[Nefarious Banana]

5 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

"wokeness" is mostly an ineffectual illusion - and is best suited for the angertainment most of you eat up...

Why do you continue to demand a definition for 'woke/wokeness'  when you've already proclaimed  what it means for the rest of us?

 

[QuebecOverCanada]

3 hours ago, myata said:

Yes but it's not just social science, pretty much any matter or subject that may have an essential impact is immediately politicized with interests trying to control the discussion and agenda. Have you seen even a trace of an attempt to have an objective unbiased discussion on Covid response and prospects?

I believe many spheres of academia and in our institutions that revolve around control of human behavior is absolutely turning demented. We let so much power to corporations, governments and authority figures. You see it with COVID too, with the restrictions on behaviors and the imposition of new social norms but also fights toward intellectual elements of our society such as the equality of opportunity to be replaced with equality of outcome.

[QuebecOverCanada]

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Sorry I thought you meant " It is merit and competence in math that explains the success of the STUDENTS succeeding a math exam.  I'll explain that by 'good results' I meant better results for the students. 

2.The part where you explain the gaps of success by races is lost on me.  Smaller sample size doesn't mean the statistics are wrong, so I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

3. You state that it's "your view" which means you are stating an opinion instead of objective data.  I accept that and disagree with your opinion.

1. Anyone completing a math exam who has competence and merit will pass. It is the same question for everyone, the same equations, same formulas. Students, teachers, what makes you think that the identity of the person makes it more difficult?

2. A sample size that is too small reduces the power of the study and increases the margin of error, which renders the study meaningless. 

Statistics are made on the model of a Normal Curve, and the smaller the sample size, the smaller the Statistical Power.

More about the effects of a small sample size, and its limitations may be found out here;

https://sciencing.com/effects-small-sample-size-limitation-8545371.html

3. You may disagree with the opinion of many. We are many to disagree here with you, and it's alright. We're not dogpiling on you, we're just exchanging.

[Benz]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1) Discrimination and racism aren't the same thing.  Some people may think that this discrimination is racism, because it wasn't immediately viewed by the system as a problem by those who own the system, or the public.  And that's evidenced here with people here who hear that something is being changed and instantly react to decide that their definition of 'merit' vetoes anything else.

2) Ok.  Or maybe the system doesn't address their needs and doesn't provide good outcomes.

3) So why isn't this happening then ?

4) It's teacher candidates who are failing the test, not students.  If you want to fix the system so that certain races succeed equally at the math test, it's a long term solution.

5) I wouldn't say that they can't make it, nor that they are inferior.  They are failing the test and that is all.

6) It's a legal opinion, not a fact.  You shouldn't feel insulted.  Educators look for practical outcomes, and for this I think the decision makes sense.

1. ok, but it doesn't change anything. The judge has invented a discrimination that does not exist. Unless you truly believe that the colored people are inferiors.

2. Do you have doubts?

3. You are asking me why the political class of Ontario is not taking the necessary measures to give everyone the same chance? How about you ask an Ontarian.

4. Why do you substract the student phase of an eventual teacher? How do know how it works in your area but here, you need to study if you want to eventually become a teacher. How long do you evaluate the long term solution? If you just lower the requirements, how is that suppose to help the concerned communities to raise the bar?

5. That is all...? you certainly have an easiness to get confortable with an absence of explanation.

6. The fallacy of that legal opinion is a shame for the justice system. Considering as practical, the acceptance of failing teachers, based on the colour of their skin, is somewhat kind of very singular and arbitrary. How do you calculate the effectiveness of this measure and of course? how much of abstraction must you do regarding the success of the students that need to deal with a weaker teacher?

 

The first times black players were allowed to play professional sports, the clubs owners were using the best of the best. Whatever the sport, athletics,  basketball, baseball and so on.  If you were black, you had to be very good to be chosen. With time, the blacks came to dominate several sports and today the club owners do not take a chance. As soon as one black can be just as good as any other white man, they take before someone else does.

But for the teachers, you have the opposite approach. Instead of doing what it takes to makes sure they get the same chance to succeed, you bring down the success bar for to accommodate weakest teachers. You have to admit one thing. The success of the students that will end up with those teachers is definitely NOT part of your considerations.

I'll tell you how such measure could be considered as relevant. If the demand for teachers would be greater than the system can produce, then the test would become an issue. Because although some teachers would failed the test, having a weaker teacher is better than no teacher at all. But what's the big picture here. The reason why the test has been put in first place, is because there were a certain amount of people trying to become teachers and the test would filter out those who are not good enough. They want the best of the best. But now a judge says... "nah... now you need to take anyone because we do not believe the coloured people can make it". hummm really? One thing for sure, that judge really didn't feel the need to be convincing.

[Michael Hardner]

13 hours ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

1. Anyone completing a math exam who has competence and merit will pass. It is the same question for everyone, the same equations, same formulas. Students, teachers, what makes you think that the identity of the person makes it more difficult?

2. A sample size that is too small reduces the power of the study and increases the margin of error, which renders the study meaningless.  

3. You may disagree with the opinion of many. We are many to disagree here with you, and it's alright. We're not dogpiling on you, we're just exchanging.

1. I don't *think* that - it was reported in the original post.
2. "Too small" - yes.  But a smaller sample size doesn't necessarily mean a worse study if it's big enough.   Also - I'm lost as to which study you refer to ?  Are you talking about studies that assess how races do on certain tests ?   Because the original post, I think, has a definitive count of who passed/failed based on race.
3. Thanks, I appreciate that.  If my argument is that something is pragmatic, I would be dishonest to deny reality.

[Michael Hardner]

12 hours ago, Benz said:

1. ok, but it doesn't change anything. The judge has invented a discrimination that does not exist. Unless you truly believe that the colored people are inferiors.

2. Do you have doubts?

3. You are asking me why the political class of Ontario is not taking the necessary measures to give everyone the same chance? How about you ask an Ontarian.

4. Why do you substract the student phase of an eventual teacher? How do know how it works in your area but here, you need to study if you want to eventually become a teacher. How long do you evaluate the long term solution? If you just lower the requirements, how is that suppose to help the concerned communities to raise the bar?

5. That is all...? you certainly have an easiness to get confortable with an absence of explanation.

6. How do you calculate the effectiveness of this measure and of course? how much of abstraction must you do regarding the success of the students that need to deal with a weaker teacher?

7. The first times black players were allowed to play professional sports, the clubs owners were using the best of the best. Whatever the sport, athletics,  basketball, baseball and so on.  If you were black, you had to be very good to be chosen. With time, the blacks came to dominate several sports and today the club owners do not take a chance. As soon as one black can be just as good as any other white man, they take before someone else does.

8. But for the teachers, you have the opposite approach. Instead of doing what it takes to makes sure they get the same chance to succeed, you bring down the success bar for to accommodate weakest teachers. You have to admit one thing. The success of the students that will end up with those teachers is definitely NOT part of your considerations.

9. One thing for sure, that judge really didn't feel the need to be convincing.

1. He observed that people of a certain race have failed the test at a higher rate than others.  He didn't say it was intentional, ie. that people invited the test to discriminate or that people of that race are inferior.  The focus is on the result.

2. Not really, no.

3. "we would expect that the ratio of success is mostly the same for every one else." is what we're talking about.  I am an Ontarian, and your expectation hasn't come to pass here or in a lot of other places so other steps are being taken.

4. It will solve another problem in the short term, which is representation in the classroom.

5. Well, in life this happens a lot.  I understand, from business, that sometimes finding a root cause is a long term task and you therefore need to do something else in the short term.  

6. I would characterize this situation as: the system was changed to assess a math skill, but in doing so it did more harm to the system than good so they worked through the system to remove it.  They will assess the removal of this test and its effects but given that it's a simple and short-term fix it should be immediately impactful and obvious.  I don't agree that the teachers are 'weaker' because the core ability that a teacher needs is to be able to 'teach'.  I think the impacts inn the classroom are probably equally obvious.

7. This sounds wrong.  I think statistics make up more than you are saying, unless you are a 'problematic' black person who goes down on one knee and angers white fans.

8. You only brought the students in at the end.  Good math skills aren't the definitive measure of how well a teacher will do in the classroom, that's a bad assumption.

9. The judge gave a legal opinion.  You can agree or disagree.
 

[OftenWrong]

If you divide the test result along economic lines rather than “race” or skin colour, you would see a similar disparity.

[Yzermandius19]

knowing math is far more important to teaching than "representation in the classroom"

anyone who claims otherwise is woke and hurting the students to push a woke agenda

Edited December 24, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[Michael Hardner]

31 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

1. knowing math is far more important to teaching than "representation in the classroom"

2. anyone who claims otherwise is woke and hurting the students to push a woke agenda

1. The onus is on you to prove the experts wrong.
2. Calling someone 'woke' to add to an unsubstantiated claim in (1) doesn't make it any more true.

[Yzermandius19]

18 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. The onus is on you to prove the experts wrong.
2. Calling someone 'woke' to add to an unsubstantiated claim in (1) doesn't make it any more true.

appeal to authority fallacy

it is on the "experts" to prove they are right

until then, they are just racists talking out of their ass

you are a fool for believing their moronic conclusions just because they are "experts"

you are supporting blatant racism as long as "experts" also support it

 

eugenics used to be supported by the "experts" too

that didn't make them right

and it didn't make them any less racist hiding behind "expertise" either

you would probably have fallen for that scam too

the "experts" agreed after all and had "science" to support their moronic claims

and you are a quite the sucker for appeals to authority

Edited December 24, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[Michael Hardner]

16 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

1. appeal to authority fallacy

2. it is on the "experts" to prove they are right

3. until then, they are just racists talking out of their ass

4. eugenics used to be supported by the "experts" too

5. and you are a quite the sucker for appeals to authority

1. No, this is how discussion works: proof lies with the positive claimant, which is you.  So many people on here fall into the fallacy that they can just say something and we have to agree.
2. Yes, the judge has issued an opinion.  The teaching association pursued a case based on academic research.
3. And now you're going even farther into the fallacy zone: ascribing malicious intent.
4. As is the theory of relativity.  The system we use to analyze, review and discuss claims remains intact.  
5. And finally - proven you have less than nothing in your quiver - you call me 'quite the sucker'.  If you actually had a solid argument other than to just declare things, this wouldn't be necessary.

[Yzermandius19]

5 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. No, this is how discussion works: proof lies with the positive claimant, which is you.  So many people on here fall into the fallacy that they can just say something and we have to agree.
2. Yes, the judge has issued an opinion.  The teaching association pursued a case based on academic research.
3. And now you're going even farther into the fallacy zone: ascribing malicious intent.
4. As is the theory of relativity.  The system we use to analyze, review and discuss claims remains intact.  
5. And finally - proven you have less than nothing in your quiver - you call me 'quite the sucker'.  If you actually had a solid argument other than to just declare things, this wouldn't be necessary.

you don't have an argument

your argument is I'm wrong and the experts agree with you

I am the one with the actual argument

you are the one who retorts with nothing but fallacies

you can't even think for yourself

you let "experts" determine your opinion, even if said experts have no proof of their ridiculous assertions themselves

you are the one making positive assertions you can't back up

I have backed mine up repeatedly

Edited December 24, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[Yzermandius19]

I find it hilarious that on the one hand

you deny the woke have any significant influence

and on the other

claim that plenty of experts agree with them

totally contradicting yourself

 

which is it MH.....

are many of the experts in major institutions woke?

or

are hardly any of the experts in major institutions woke?

 

because you can't seem to make up your mind

it can't be both

so pick a side

Edited December 24, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[Aristides]

As long as they aren't allowed to teach math.

[QuebecOverCanada]

3 minutes ago, Aristides said:

As long as they aren't allowed to teach math.

This is not just the point of teaching quality. It is jurisprudence for future downgrades of standards across society in Ontario.

[QuebecOverCanada]

8 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. "Too small" - yes.  But a smaller sample size doesn't necessarily mean a worse study if it's big enough.   Also - I'm lost as to which study you refer to ?  Are you talking about studies that assess how races do on certain tests ?   Because the original post, I think, has a definitive count of who passed/failed based on race.
2. Thanks, I appreciate that.  If my argument is that something is pragmatic, I would be dishonest to deny reality.

1. I posted you the graph given by the study presented to the court, accessible in the OP

Here is the table showing every given N per variable, and its results. 

The graph is accessible on this pdf of the Superior Court of Justice Divisional Court on the Ontario Teacher Candidates’ Council website

Link to the pdf;

https://www.otffeo.on.ca/en/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2021/12/2021-12-16-OTCC-v-Ontario-FINAL-signed-by-all.pdf

Link to the story;

https://www.otffeo.on.ca/en/news/ontario-court-declares-that-the-ontario-math-proficiency-test-is-unconstitutional/

2. Do you think equality of outcome is desirable in society, even in an unpragmatic mindset?

Edited December 24, 2021 by QuebecOverCanada

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

1. I posted you the graph given by the study presented to the court, accessible in the OP

Here is the table showing every given N per variable, and its results. 

The graph is accessible on this pdf of the Superior Court of Justice Divisional Court on the Ontario Teacher Candidates’ Council website

Link to the pdf;

https://www.otffeo.on.ca/en/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2021/12/2021-12-16-OTCC-v-Ontario-FINAL-signed-by-all.pdf

Link to the story;

https://www.otffeo.on.ca/en/news/ontario-court-declares-that-the-ontario-math-proficiency-test-is-unconstitutional/

2. Do you think equality of outcome is desirable in society, even in an unpragmatic mindset?

1. Ok, I see what this is now and I already read the story thanks.  So 350 candidates or so were taken out of the pool because they failed this test it seems.  There could have been some amazing drama teachers, music teachers in there.

2. 'Desirable' ?  Who am I to say what people desire ?  I don't think it's pragmatic, no, but we're not aiming for that.

[Army Guy]

On 12/24/2021 at 7:43 AM, Michael Hardner said:

1. He observed that people of a certain race have failed the test at a higher rate than others.  He didn't say it was intentional, ie. that people invited the test to discriminate or that people of that race are inferior.  The focus is on the result.


6. I would characterize this situation as: the system was changed to assess a math skill, but in doing so it did more harm to the system than good so they worked through the system to remove it.  They will assess the removal of this test and its effects but given that it's a simple and short-term fix it should be immediately impactful and obvious.  I don't agree that the teachers are 'weaker' because the core ability that a teacher needs is to be able to 'teach'.  I think the impacts inn the classroom are probably equally obvious.

 

1.  The results are focus on being inclusive, not upholding the basic standards, or finding out why this race is not doing well in math, and look to correct that. changing standards can be a slippery slope, where does one draw a line in the sand, or at what point do we stop watering the standard down. Instead of teaching someone until they are able to meet the standard.

6. Being a teacher of anything requires 2 things subject matter knowledge and the ability to teach. one would think that in studying to become a teacher one would receive instruction in both, and to meet a certain standard to pass. most grade school teachers ( 1 though 8 ) have to teach multiple topics, normally to their home room class, atleast in the basics.  not being able to teach math would be a liability in this case, 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 25, 2021 by Army Guy

[Michael Hardner]

10 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

1.  The results are focus on being inclusive, not upholding the basic standards, or finding out why this race is not doing well in math, and look to correct that. changing standards can be a slippery slope, where does one draw a line in the sand, or at what point do we stop watering the standard down.

2. Instead of teaching someone until they are able to meet the standard.

3. Being a teacher of anything requires 2 things subject matter knowledge and the ability to teach.

4. one would think that in studying to become a teacher one would receive instruction in both, and to meet a certain standard to pass. most grade school teachers ( 1 though 8 ) have to teach multiple topics, normally to their home room class, atleast in the basics.  not being able to teach math would be a liability in this case, 

1.   I agree that it can be a slippery slope.  But also keep in mind, Doug Ford brought this in as a political solution to math scores dropping.  The Conservative government of Ontario is known for their so-called 'common sense' solutions to problems.  They even ironically called themselves the 'Common Sense' party.  They brought in Boot Camps for young offenders, whatever that meant, in the 1990s and it was a solution looking for a problem.  It failed.
2. The 'someone' you are talking about is a teacher.  I suppose they can keep taking the test... but what is the point.
3. Right.  So why are they making non-math teachers take the test ?
4. Well, I would agree if you are teaching high-school math, ie. grade 12 calculus, but elementary music teachers must take it also.