Ontario Court declares that the Ontario Math Proficiency Test is Unconstitutional

[QuebecOverCanada]

15 minutes ago, blackbird said:

It sounds like the court is taken over and controlled by the woke, cancel culture, cultural Marxist people.  Tragic.

The anti-intellectual era, but the angry era.

The era where racism has to be found in a math test.

The era in which a woke professor published a book defending pedophilia, and the press rebranding the term as "adults attracted to minors". 

https://apnews.com/article/media-crime-education-virginia-norfolk-2adff01de54205e6513d5071f29e772a

https://torontosun.com/news/world/woke-watch-prof-says-lets-ditch-the-term-pedophile-for-minor-attracted-person

[Army Guy]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

I guess if you were up on the literature you might learn why that doesn't work ?

Well my goggle search did not find a lot stated we should hire the most qualified. Similar to what was suggested. the search's came back were all over the place, including one from Forbes reflecting on a study done in Europe suggesting you should hire the least qualified person because they are more apt to be grateful, and work harder. Ys babe it's 2015...was written all over that one.  

Quote

 

It seems that after all these years there is still some confusion regarding diversity recruitment and it’s effect on hiring. You see diversity recruitment is about ensuring your recruiting strategy explores diverse avenues. That it lends itself to engaging diverse candidates. That it encourages applicants of all differences to apply.

Not that you hire diverse candidates because it’s the right or moral thing to do, but because they are the most qualified.

 

Diversity Recruitment and Hiring the Most Qualified (acaciahrsolutions.com)

I think everyone going to a job interview was under the impression the process was going to be fair and transparent, racist free. I mean it is the owners job to ensure HR is doing it properly, but when the boss gets out to talk to his employees and they are all white or black or green, then a couple of questions should be asked, "Did Capt Kirk really have sex with that green chick." maybe you need a new HR team. But to throw that practice away because it does not  work all of the time. thats kind of stupid, it is up to the user or business owner to make it work fairly.  

Keeping your teacher in school when they are not fully qualified does not make any sense business wise or is it logical.

I think Math is one of the basics that all students must master to continue on with education at higher levels... one would think being a teacher would be able to at minimum be able to cover the basics. so they can teach the basic topics to all students, regardless of grade ... I thought being a teacher requires university education, how does one pass that degree not knowing math.. what if it was reading or writing or do they get a pass on those as well, it sounds crazy to me...it sounds to me like everyone gets a trophy mindset, that person was rushed through because nobody cared about the quality of teacher they were producing but just sheer numbers... 

The others sites i visited were from stats Canada  which simply defers that there are racial groups that are discriminated against,  have already seen that racism is not going to change any time soon regardless of hiring practices.. or education levels are also an issue, as some racial people are poor and can not afford quality or name brand higher education institutions...

Quote

A recently released research paper by three European academics makes the intriguing argument that it may be better to hire a mediocre job candidate than to hire someone with sterling credentials. Why? The mediocre hire may give the job his all because he feels indebted to the hiring manager for choosing him. The most qualified candidate, by contrast, may feel like he deserved the job, and decide to approach it with a more relaxed attitude.

Why It's Better To Hire The Least Qualified Person For The Job (forbes.com)

I know the Government has been hiring like this for years now, actually putting out recruiting adds on government web sites specifically looking for women of racial profiles, after those quotas are met then the rest of the ingrates are free to apply, and as if that is not enough they carried that out in their promotion practices as well. and with more diverse groups coming to the government attention their is now a drive to promote them as well. and everyone is good with that... see qualifications means jack shit, skin color, gender, or LQBTQ are giving preference because they want them to be seen at every level. had they been promoted on merit then god for them, but as the new defense minister said she wants a more diverse and inclusive military...The whole theory behind creating a fighting force should be based on quality of it's members, not if their skin color is different.. had this been reversed and we hired only white men i wonder where we would be in the courts...     

 

 

[Michael Hardner]

20 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

Let me correct you on that one.

https://www.otffeo.on.ca/en/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2021/12/2021-12-16-OTCC-v-Ontario-FINAL-signed-by-all.pdf

True, but there was also no finding of racism.

[Michael Hardner]

32 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

1 This is not really comprehensible to be quite honest with you. The goal of academia is to teach children, not having a professor of the same origin as the student or be a census oriented institution. I would much rather have teachers who have competence over someone who has the correct skin tone or ethnic background according to the demograph paid by the government agencies a fortune to determine. 

2 It isn't bad to have teachers who are proficient in more than one discipline, as they all intertwine in a way. I don't think lowering the standards will bring in better elements, nor that much worse.

3 I like the fact that you may soon enough will be open to change your mind. Spontaneously, you qualified it as an evil.

4 We have to use the proper definitions of terms we use to have a productive and comprehensible conversation about things, whatever they may be. Wokes who make demands nowadays which are mostly preposterous, such as cancelling J.K. Rowling for calling women... women... ( https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/j-k-rowling-faces-backlash-after-tweeting-support-transphobic-researcher-n1104971 ) or are acting like every disparity or discrepancy between groups of people is a symptom of racism are not the same as the Civil rights movement, which has its own Wikipedia page, and tons of literature about. These men and women of African origin mainly fought a cause that demanded equal rights and opportunities as White people. They were fighting a just cause, and won. Don't soil them with comparing them to Wokes. The proper term would be they were radical in their approach, like the Wokes, but the comparison stops here.

Wokes are travesties, they con you by pretending to have a degree of empathy toward social issues of all kinds, be it racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, but are really just alienating the rest of society to fight these real issues by how extreme their view of equality is, which isn't what even most of people on the Left think - that equality of opportunity is the key in society to social justice -, but think equality of outcome trumps every other method to which we compare every races. Lowering education standards is just a price to pay according to them to get the goal they are seeking to accomplish; equality of outcome across the board. Simple as is.

In the case of this specific verdict, for example, the verdict only defined discrimination in virtue of if the results respected the wet dream of equality of outcome on a bivariate analysis between race and the math test results that would be analyzed, without taking any other factor into consideration. This leaves the door open for many situations in which we would lower the standards of society for racial justice pretense, or take possession of private property of privileged groups to give it to the other groups which will be justified as means to obtain equality. Which isn't something I would like to see happening. There needs to be programs to have less inequality in Canada. But thinking the wokes have some kind of resemblance to the CIvil rights activists is wrong, because they make the fight for equality and the messaging harder to take notice because they are clowns who make a lot of noise while the reasonable are quieter.

5 Merry Holidays to you too. ?

 

 

1. I agree that the goal is to teach children.  Maybe assessment of math skills isn't a good measure of that.

4. You disparaged wokism, but you didn't really define it.  And moral outrage is always unreasonable when it's somebody else's morals.  

[WestCanMan]

17 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. I agree that the goal is to teach children.  Maybe assessment of math skills isn't a good measure of that. 

OMG, you're stretching that crap thinner than graphene now. 

Imagine a society where kids who are a bit ahead of the curve ask their teacher some math questions from a bit over the horizon and they just draw a blank stare. "That's not really important, Timmy. Just learn your gender pronouns and memorize all of the reasons why we don't need any actual evidence to convict people like Trump & Kavanuagh'." 

 

 

[Nefarious Banana]

37 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. I agree that the goal is to teach children.  Maybe assessment of math skills isn't a good measure of that. 

Nonsense statement Michael.  If you can't do rudimentary math or read . . . . what do you have?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Army Guy]

welcome to flight 001, i'll be your pilot, fasten your seatbelts and raise your tables and prepare for take off... hey co pilot how do we start this sucker, i just got my pilots license after 15 years of trying , they failed me because i could not read, can you believe that....and i really sucked at math so your going to have to figure out our take off weight and how much fuel we need.... ah forget it I'm just going to touch all the buttons we'll get it sooner ort later.... my bad i just ejected the co pilot....anyone else want to give this a try....

[Yzermandius19]

8 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Indirectly, yes, but the point is to get teachers that represent the communities they teach in - not to hit an abstract number.  It's a noble goal, and forcing math proficiency on every teacher is probably a bad idea anyway.

 

But you are correct - this is racial profiling that influences policy.  I see it as a necessary evil, but I can't deny what it is.

if you think it’s more important to hire teachers that represent the community

than it is to hire the best teachers for those communities, regardless of how representative they are of that community's demographics

then you are woke

it's a terrible trade off, and any reasonable person can see that

it's an unnecessary evil that you openly support

Edited December 23, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[OftenWrong]

13 hours ago, Nefarious Banana said:

If you can't do rudimentary math or read . . . . what do you have?

We can clap hands and sing songs.

“Edumacate, edumacate...”

[Michael Hardner]

24 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

We can clap hands and sing songs.

“Edumacate, edumacate...”

Let's be clear, people, other groups are monitored for such things too, namely men.  I personally know of a couple of guys who were able to fasttrack into teaching because of their gender.

[Yzermandius19]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

Let's be clear, people, other groups are monitored for such things too, namely men.  I personally know of a couple of guys who were able to fasttrack into teaching because of their gender.

that's not a good thing

discrimination based on merit > discrimination based on race or gender

throwing merit under the bus detracts from education, it doesn't enhance it

fuck the woke and the anti-meritocracy horse they rode in on

Edited December 23, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[Michael Hardner]

46 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

 

1. throwing merit under the bus detracts from education, it doesn't enhance it

2. fuck the woke and the anti-meritocracy horse they rode in on

1. "merit" seems to mean something explicit to you other than achieving good results
2. not woke if they're promoting white males, which they are

[Michael Hardner]

Someone please explain why testing middle school or elementary school homeroom teachers on math is 'merit'.

Keep in mind that they didn't do this a few years ago, and it was introduced by the same agencies/ministries that you currently decry for reversing their position.

"wokeness" is mostly an ineffectual illusion - and is best suited for the angertainment most of you eat up...

[Yzermandius19]

3 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. "merit" seems to mean something explicit to you other than achieving good results
2. not woke if they're promoting white males, which they are

sex based discrimination is woke

the woke decry sexism on the one hand and yet engage in it more than anyone on the other

projecting their own faults on others is a helluva drug

you don't achieve good results by hiring less qualified people just to meet race or gender quotas

Edited December 23, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[Michael Hardner]

11 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

1. sex based discrimination is woke

2. the woke decry sexism  

3. projecting their own faults on others is a helluva drug

4. you don't achieve good results by hiring less qualified people just to meet race or gender quotas

1. I have been asking for a definition of 'woke' and I just keep getting examples.  So... washrooms for men-only is woke then ?  So confusing... Can't you just be practical about results sometimes instead of applying arbitrary rules ?
2. Against men
3. I think it's weird to ascribe a system to individual peoples' faults.  Is this a principle you follow generally ?  I'm intrigued by it... like would you blame Einstein for the nuclear threat for example ?  Seriously intriguing indictment of the persona of the 'designer which would have implications to all people who are part of the process, including the citizen they/them/xie-selves !
4. You seem to accept that you own this idea of 'qualified' and I have no say in it.  I say "qualified produces the best results" which is to say - more learning, higher number of graduations, more well-adjusted students.  

If the results don't work, I will line up beside you to say the rules should be changed.
 

[Yzermandius19]

8 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

4. You seem to accept that you own this idea of 'qualified' and I have no say in it.  I say "qualified produces the best results" which is to say - more learning, higher number of graduations, more well-adjusted students.  

If the results don't work, I will line up beside you to say the rules should be changed.

affirmative action does not produce better results

in any location on the planet

it results in less learning, a lower standard of graduation to mask that drop in learning and less well adjusted students

it hurts the very people it is implemented to help

so time for a rule change

Edited December 23, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[QuebecOverCanada]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. "merit" seems to mean something explicit to you other than achieving good results
2. not woke if they're promoting white males, which they are

It is merit and competence in math that explains the success of the people succeeding a math exam. It is not discriminatory or should not be deemed anticonstitutional by a court because there are discrepancies in math tests results across ethnicities.

Edited December 23, 2021 by QuebecOverCanada

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Yzermandius19 said:

1. affirmative action does not produce better results

2. it results in less learning, a lower standard of graduation to mask that drop in learning and less well adjusted students, it hurts the very people it is implemented to help, so time for a rule change

1. I'll bet I can Google something that disagrees:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/eriklarson/2017/09/21/new-research-diversity-inclusion-better-decision-making-at-work/?sh=f66fde64cbfa

Did it.

2. Well the 'math requirement' was a recent rule change, and you are not answering my questions as to 'why' especially Q4.  You are just stating your view as though it is gospel.  Bad-faith discussion, moving on...

[Michael Hardner]

2 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

1. It is merit and competence in math that explains the success of the people succeeding a math exam.
2. It is not discriminatory...

1. Really ?  Is that your opinion or... where did you get that from ?  Also - why don't we just do this for math teachers then ?  You seem to be playing into my argument for pragmatism.
2. I don't think so either - but it produces a worse result.

My pointing out the pragmatic value of this change seems to be resulting in people not addressing that.  

[Yzermandius19]

12 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. I'll bet I can Google something that disagrees:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/eriklarson/2017/09/21/new-research-diversity-inclusion-better-decision-making-at-work/?sh=f66fde64cbfa

Did it.

2. Well the 'math requirement' was a recent rule change, and you are not answering my questions as to 'why' especially Q4.  You are just stating your view as though it is gospel.  Bad-faith discussion, moving on...

finding something that disagrees is irrelevant

quotas don't improve anything

hiring qualified personnel does

if quality personnel is being hired with quotas in place

then you don't need quotas to hire them, they'd have been hired on the merits without them

all the quotas are doing is forcing hiring along demographic lines

and if the talent pool isn't deep enough in that demographic, then they have to hire less qualified individuals to meet the quota

no positive comes from that, it can only hurt, not help

Edited December 23, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[QuebecOverCanada]

10 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Really ?  Is that your opinion or... where did you get that from ?  Also - why don't we just do this for math teachers then ?  You seem to be playing into my argument for pragmatism.
2. I don't think so either - but it produces a worse result.
 

1.  Please, enlighten me. Is there another reason to why there are discrepancies in math results across races to explain the gaps in between them? Because I really thought a math exam was related to whether or not you may answer a mathematical problem.

For me, the gaps between successfullness between races is easily explainable; in statistics, in order to have valid data, you need sample size which are to the least proportional between comparison groups. There are much fewer applicants in the study shown to the courts pertaining to certain ethnicities than others, thus making the sample size for the Black applicants 10 times less than the number of whites.

For certain ethnicities, such as 'Latinos' and 'middle Eastern', they account for a tenth of the number of White applicants.

Look at this, the data from a study presented to the trial;

This is not a tangible proof of discrimination. The data is just bivariate, and doesn't control for outside factors such as the level of instruction of the applicants and many other variables we could discuss gladly.

2 Having mathematically literate teacher is a plus for the students. Having a teacher with browner skin isn't a plus, it's neutral. At least in my view as a non-racist person.

Edited December 23, 2021 by QuebecOverCanada

[Yzermandius19]

2 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

Having mathematically literate teacher is a plus for the students. Having a teacher with browner skin isn't a plus, it's neutral. At least in my view as a non-racist person.

exactamundo

affirmative action is stupid, racist and sexist

you don't fix the damage done by past discrimination with present and future discrimination

anyone who thinks otherwise is not a rational individual

[myata]

The society is no longer capable of an intelligent and responsible discussion, on pretty much any topic. So whoever happens to be at the helm, uses cliches and taboos of the moment to advance their agenda. This is a sad state of affairs and I cannot honestly see where an improvement could come from. We're moving away from the reason and responsibility to uncharted waters of wokism and populism. Or maybe, back to the all time status quo of the human herd?

[QuebecOverCanada]

6 minutes ago, myata said:

The society is no longer capable of an intelligent and responsible discussion, on pretty much any topic. So whoever happens to be at the helm, uses cliches and taboos of the moment to advance their agenda. This is a sad state of affairs and I cannot honestly see where an improvement could come from. We're moving away from the reason and responsibility to uncharted waters of wokism and populism. Or maybe, back to the all time status quo of the human herd?

Human Sciences are perverted by bad methodology, and badly interpreted by persons of authority who think a botched study is proof of bias. They have the opposite logical reasoning as the Enlightenment movement a few centuries ago. They do not believe in Empiricism; they have their minds already made and design pseudo-studies to prove their point rather than finding the truth. 

[QuebecOverCanada]

17 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

exactamundo

affirmative action is stupid, racist and sexist

you don't fix the damage done by past discrimination with present and future discrimination

anyone who thinks otherwise is not a rational individual

And it's also that a math test result discrepancy isn't a proof of racism, at all. Certainly not when you compare the scores of races without controlling any other variable and having such unequal sample sizes across races. This is a farce masqueraded as a study. They reached their conclusion that racism is overwhelming when it comes to math exams before proving it.

Edited December 23, 2021 by QuebecOverCanada
A math test. Not a meth test.