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Ontario needs to invest in EVs as a realistic Option.


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10 hours ago, Boges said:

Again why are you not making an Apples to Apples comparison. 

Why would a car company sell its brand new techy car at bare bones prices with bare bones features? 

The fact that base models of certain cars are still sold means that there is a market for them. And not everyone can afford an EV. This is a list of the cheapest models in Canada.

Cheapest Electric Cars in Canada (canadadrives.ca)

The cheapest is over 40 grand. And some of the brands on this list don't have a great reputation for reliability. Mini, Kia, VW. My boss drives a Tesla and he loves it for the most part. His 20 grand repair was covered under warranty which was good. But on those really cold days, he always brings in his ICE vehicle for some reason.

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40 minutes ago, ironstone said:

The cheapest is over 40 grand. And some of the brands on this list don't have a great reputation for reliability.

And here's the thing. If you can buy an ev for 40 grand, or a comfortable reliable car like a corolla for 22 grand or the like, then if you buy the cheaper ICE car you've got around 15 plus thousand dollars to put towards fuel. That is a LOT of fuel, even at today's prices.

So - the big 'incentive' of saving gas money is largely gone. For a lot of people that's the reality.

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You guys just go to the same Well. 

14 hours ago, CdnFox said:

And here's the thing. If you can buy an ev for 40 grand, or a comfortable reliable car like a corolla for 22 grand or the like, then if you buy the cheaper ICE car you've got around 15 plus thousand dollars to put towards fuel. That is a LOT of fuel, even at today's prices.

So - the big 'incentive' of saving gas money is largely gone. For a lot of people that's the reality.

Again, a massive fallacy. 

You need make the consideration that there is almost no regular maintenance for an EV. So you can cut out the $150-$300 or more oil and other fluid changes. Brakes also don't wear down as fast because of regenerative braking.

If you're in the market for a NEW car. And can only afford a $20k loan. You're not in the market for EV anyway. In fact you're not in the market for the vast majority of ICE vehicles. You live in an even smaller niche market than the EV market. Automakers don't want to make Compact cars. 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2020/07/17/discontinued-cars-2020-ford-fiesta-toyota-yaris-gm-chevrolet-sonic/5413585002/

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In 2019, subcompact cars made up 2.7% of vehicle purchases, down from 5.5% in 2012, according to car-research site Edmunds. 

Many buyers of subcompact cars have upgraded to relatively new subcompact SUVs – such as the Honda HR-V, Jeep Renegade and Hyundai Kona – which have a similar wheelbase and length but greater height. Subcompact SUV market share increased from 0.8% in 2012 to 4.9% in 2019, according to Edmunds.

Another big consideration for me getting an EV was the Cheat Code of being able to use Carpool lanes solo, which is law in Ontario and makes commuting much easier. 

 

 

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27 minutes ago, Boges said:

Again, a massive fallacy. 

You need make the consideration that there is almost no regular maintenance for an EV. So you can cut out the $150-$300 or more oil and other fluid changes. Brakes also don't wear down as fast because of regenerative braking.

Dude, it's not a fallacy. It's true. Perhaps what you meant is that there are other factors. But - lets take a look at that. Oil changes - well that costs me about 100 dollars ever 7000 k or so (probaby could get away with less.)  AND if i wanted i could do it myself to save costs. But lets say i don't.

So if i drive 20k a year - which is far more than i do acutally but lets make it closer to the average - that means based on my average gas milage over say 5 years of the vehicles life i will buy about 1500 dollars in oil changes, and i'll buy 5,555 litres of fuel approx.   SO at just over today's gas prices i'll spend 10 grand in fuel. So i'm at 11,500.  That means after 5 years i'm STILL paying less. With a fair bit of room for price increases and the like. And for ME personally that would be more like 15 years, i don't need to drive much, i do about 5 - 7 k a year right now.

And my car is as nice as comfortable and feature rich as i want entirely.

And here's the thing - you've got some good points and as i and others have said I DO believe it could very well be a good choice for some specific buyers and circumstances, but you're trying to sell it as being WAAAAAAAYYYYY more of a practical choice for "everybody" than it is.  And then you wind up stretching your argument too thin.

36 minutes ago, Boges said:

If you're in the market for a NEW car. And can only afford a $20k loan. You're not in the market for EV anyway.

I paid for my car cash and it was just under 20grand, i could very easily afford a top end ev. I do not want one, it would not be a good choice for me, and i have other things i'd much rather spend the money on. I consider 'luxury' cars to be a waste of cash (for me) and while i get others may enjoy that it's just not something i would spend money on even if i was a billionare. (except maybe my own personal batmobile. I'd spend cash on that.)

And subcompact cars are not the only car cheaper. You can get a new corolla as was mentioned for pretty close  to 20,000, you can get one that's a year old or so for under that.  So there you go.

You're taking a good argument for some people and stretching it into a ridiculous argument that's supposed to apply to everyone.  There are people who like EV's. There are people who like subcompact cars.  There are people who like corollas. There are people who like big trucks.

All of them should be able to get the vehice they want and satisfy their specific needs.  A modest but significant part of the market will find an EV a great choice. And more power to them  (pun intended :) ) .   But - that's it. It's a BAD choice for others.

Stop trying to hammer your square peg into every hole :)

 

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3 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

I paid for my car cash and it was just under 20grand, i could very easily afford a top end ev. I do not want one, it would not be a good choice for me, and i have other things i'd much rather spend the money on. I consider 'luxury' cars to be a waste of cash (for me) and while i get others may enjoy that it's just not something i would spend money on even if i was a billionare. (except maybe my own personal batmobile. I'd spend cash on that.)

 

Then why are you debating what should be a trend in the Car Industry? You clearly don't car much about cars, but feel the need to feverishly debate the direction of the industry. Because it certainly not more Toyota Corollas 

If most people who like driving nice cars had 20k to burn, they'd buy a much nicer used car. I already highlighted why it's a much better financial proposition in a previous post. 

 

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And subcompact cars are not the only car cheaper. You can get a new corolla as was mentioned for pretty close  to 20,000, you can get one that's a year old or so for under that.  So there you go.

Still a very small portion of the Automotive market and not a direct competitor to any modern EV. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Boges said:

Then why are you debating what should be a trend in the Car Industry?

Three reasons.  1 - while i'm not "passionate" about cars and trucks i do need them. So i want to make sure buying choices that are suitable to my needs are there.  Why the hell would i accept a 'one size fits all' solution? This is a free market society it isn't russia.

2 - whenever a gov't tries to force the free market it has huge negative effects on the market in the end. It just doesn't work that way. The gov't can encourage, the gov't can create fertile ground as the saying goes, but it just cannot 'force' the market in a specific direction and every time it tries there's disastrous effects on the market.

3 - Vehicles play a huge role in our economy indirectly. From commercial transport to individuals accessing opportunty for work and recreation, vehicles are hugely important.  So when you screw that market over, you seriously weaken the economy in general and that impacts everybody.  I mean, i don't get 'passionate' about water either, but if something threatened the supply of it and would radically increase the price and availability of it or how we use it, i'd be very concerned about that.

It's not complicated. A better question is why are you concerned about MY buying choices.

9 minutes ago, Boges said:

You clearly don't car much about cars,

I know that was just a typo, but that was funny ;)

10 minutes ago, Boges said:

If most people who like driving nice cars had 20k to burn, they'd buy a much nicer used car.

And probably an ice.

Now - what if i came along and FORCED you to buy only a corolla. What if i said that's ALL we're going to allow on the market.

How would you feel? You obviously don't car much for corollas ( :) ). So why would you care if that's where the industry was going? I think corollas are great - you should too.

You see?

I don't believe there will be a substantial savings for most people buying an EV right now (unless the gov' subsidizes it which is a whole different discussion). I think that in practical actual terms many will get no benefit at all and most will get a very small or modest benefit.

The tech just isnt there yet. It's close - it's good for a lot of people -  but it's just not there for widespread adaption. Another 10 years or so and the tech will probably hopefully mature to the point where they can look at producing something that's really a replacement for ICE.

In the meantime, if you want to talk about why it's a great choice for you and why it might be a great choice for others hey, that's awesome. We'd love to hear the stories.  But - don't try to force it down people's throats with 'mandates' and the like. That just turns people off.

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36 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Three reasons.  1 - while i'm not "passionate" about cars and trucks i do need them. So i want to make sure buying choices that are suitable to my needs are there.  Why the hell would i accept a 'one size fits all' solution? This is a free market society it isn't russia.

2 - whenever a gov't tries to force the free market it has huge negative effects on the market in the end. It just doesn't work that way. The gov't can encourage, the gov't can create fertile ground as the saying goes, but it just cannot 'force' the market in a specific direction and every time it tries there's disastrous effects on the market.

3 - Vehicles play a huge role in our economy indirectly. From commercial transport to individuals accessing opportunty for work and recreation, vehicles are hugely important.  So when you screw that market over, you seriously weaken the economy in general and that impacts everybody.  I mean, i don't get 'passionate' about water either, but if something threatened the supply of it and would radically increase the price and availability of it or how we use it, i'd be very concerned about that.

It's not complicated. A better question is why are you concerned about MY buying choices.

This thread is concerned with Governments (Specifically Ontario) making the necessary investments in making an electrification possible. Because it's going to have to happen. All the major economies on Earth are already moving in that direction. China actually being the leader on EV adoption. 

It's rather pointless to fret about the reality of buying choices of vehicles in 2035. I'm pretty confident in saying that the EV market share will be much more by the turn of the century than it is now. But even now, if you look, Green Vehicles usage is certainly growing. 

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40 odd years ago we lived in Burnaby and worked in Langley, so we bought a house in Langley. Within months, both our employers moved the jobs back to Burnaby.
If they'd had hybrids then, even with 50 kms of EV range, I don't want to think of how much I would've saved on gas stuck in traffic crossing the bridge twice a day. We'd probably own 1 Hybrid SUV and a BEV if we were in that boat today.

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2 hours ago, Boges said:

This thread is concerned with Governments (Specifically Ontario) making the necessary investments in making an electrification possible. Because it's going to have to happen. All the major economies on Earth are already moving in that direction. China actually being the leader on EV adoption. 

Give me a break. You've been arguing for quite some time about the benefits of EV's, NOT the process of electrification.

In fact i haven't seen you address the issue of how to provide for that at all, despite it being brought up as a major issue when considering EV's.

And it only "has to happen" if we're going to switch exclusively to current tech ev's. Otherwise a certain market segment will buy them and others will stick with ice and we don't need the grid to handle all that much.

2 hours ago, Boges said:

It's rather pointless to fret about the reality of buying choices of vehicles in 2035. I'm pretty confident in saying that the EV market share will be much more by the turn of the century than it is now. But even now, if you look, Green Vehicles usage is certainly growing. 

Well if there's no point fretting about it then there's no point in building out the EV infrastructure for the future either then is there.

You're really losing the high ground here.  Pretending that things that concern you are of primary importance and 'HAVE ' To happen while any other concern raised by anyone is completely dismissed as irrelevant even when it clearly isn't.

IF anything you've convinced me we're heading down this EV path blindly and we should be discouraging the build out until people like you want to take it seriously. Let the market sort it - if people want ev charging stations they can buy them and if the grid can't handle it oh welll, buy an ICE.

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18 hours ago, CdnFox said:

IF anything you've convinced me we're heading down this EV path blindly and we should be discouraging the build out until people like you want to take it seriously. Let the market sort it - if people want ev charging stations they can buy them and if the grid can't handle it oh welll, buy an ICE.

Well the thread goes the way it goes. People say some pretty ignorant stuff about EV tech. Not you specifically. So that needs to be addressed. 

But if you deny the future of Western Civilization is Electrification, you're not paying attention. 

The issues with the Grid and Infrastructure are Real. Also the availability of EVs will make it difficult for widespread adoption in the near future. But as mentioned, the availability of good ICE cars is also an issue due to COVID-induced supply chain issues. 

I've been clear, EVs aren't for everyone. But they're for a good portion of the population, if you're in the market for a new car. If it's not your preference, fine. But things like range (for most people) and strain on the grid is simply fear-mongering. 

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41 minutes ago, Boges said:

Well the thread goes the way it goes. People say some pretty ignorant stuff about EV tech. Not you specifically. So that needs to be addressed. 

Yeah, sure, and fighting actual misconceptions and erroneous information is absolutely fair game. Like pointing out to me that it's not just fuel, it's maintenance like oil changes. Ok - legit point, that is a cost ev's wouldn't have as well, so lets address it.  All above board. 

But you're taking some of that stuff and trying to stretch it to fit everyone and that's where the fabric of your argument starts to get a little thin.

43 minutes ago, Boges said:

But if you deny the future of Western Civilization is Electrification, you're not paying attention. 

I haven't seen anyone suggest electric tech won't be the way of the future.  But - that does not mean it's ready to go now.

44 minutes ago, Boges said:

The issues with the Grid and Infrastructure are Real. Also the availability of EVs will make it difficult for widespread adoption in the near future. But as mentioned, the availability of good ICE cars is also an issue due to COVID-induced supply chain issues. 

The supply chain was a hiccup and is already sorting itself.  That's a blip, not an intrinsic problem with the industry.

But EV's have some serious intrinsic problems. The materials for the batteries are not easily obtained. The grid does not exist and will be very very very difficult and expensive to build out. Things like charging time require new tech to resolve that doesn't exist yet.

I have no doubt that over time this will be resolved. Who knows - maybe hyrdogen tech will take off and our EV's will be powered by a hydrogen generator instead and we will 'refuel' the same way we do now more or less.  Super easy ot convert existing "Gas" stations.  Or maybe they'll invent a power storage device that's light and easy to change that you can swap it out like a larger version of changing your aa battery in an electronic device.

I don't know. But i do know we're not there.

In the meantime i think we've made huge strides. We've gone from NO electric options or tech just 20 years ago to hybrids to  Plugin hybrids to full ev's to multiple manufacturers of EV's, and the tech has radically improved every step of the way. That will continue.  But we're not ready for widespread replacement of ICE vehicles and it looks like we're at least a decade away from being ready to seriously start that process. In the meantime i think it's great there's electric optins for those it makes sense for.

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41 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

But we're not ready for widespread replacement of ICE vehicles and it looks like we're at least a decade away from being ready to seriously start that process. In the meantime i think it's great there's electric optins for those it makes sense for.

I don't think anyone has claimed we are. I've conceded the problems that need to be addressed. I would hope that governments are looking to fix it.

The big Climate Change fighting obstacle we need to address is Shipping and Aviation. Batteries can work with personal vehicles, but with ships and planes another technology may be required. I think Hydrogen will be the solution there, but first we need to bolster Green Technology. Creating Hydrogen is very Energy intensive. 

I think we are a decade away. But with technological advancement things move fast. Just look at Smartphone adoption. People go from "Why do I need a Computer in my pocket?" To "I can't live without this thing" in short order. 

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6 minutes ago, Boges said:

I don't think anyone has claimed we are. I

I think you put at least a toe over that line. :)  

You suggested that it was appropriate for the gov't to set madates for conversion. That is not something that is done until the stated goal is possible, and you strongly agreed with it.

You have argued that essentially the only reason not to own an ev is because you can't afford it. 

There are a number of other instances where you glossed over the issues to suggest that ev's are the only logical choice and even suggested or hinted  that there's something a little wrong with anyone who just wants a comfortable commuter car.

Now - i appreciate your enthusiasm for the subject and we can all get a little carried away defending the things we really like, but i think you'll have to admit you certainly did suggest that even if there were outstanding issues they weren't a big deal to resolve and we should just go full steam ahead with eliminating ice vehicle sales within 12 years and the budget will balance itself. Sorry - the problems will rectify themselves :)

12 minutes ago, Boges said:

I think Hydrogen will be the solution there, but first we need to bolster Green Technology.

Well hydrogen or something else, i'm sure there will eventually be a solution. Maybe we'll get that whole cold fusion thing off the ground :)   We moved ships with wind for a milennia We've only been using steam turbines for just over 100 years. The fact we're now moving towards other tech this fast is nothing short of incredible.

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I think we are a decade away. But with technological advancement things move fast. Just look at Smartphone adoption. People go from "Why do I need a Computer in my pocket?" To "I can't live without this thing" in short order.

We are over a decade away just from having the tech to make it realistically possible.

Your analogy is off - what we're talking about here is the time it went from when bell first said "mr watson, come here" to "i can't live without my cell phone."  And that time was closer to 150 years.

Practical electric cars were only invented about 20 ish years ago.  The fact we've moved this far this fast is actually quite an achievement. But, like the telephone we've got a very long way to go. We're not even at the 'landline in every home" stage, never mind the cellphone era comparatively.

We're probably about 20-30 more years (optimistically) before we're really ready to eliminate the ICE option. It'll be at least 10 before the tech is even working in the labs, then there's commercialization.  It'll happen. But - it's a ways off before we're ready

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53 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

You have argued that essentially the only reason not to own an ev is because you can't afford it. 

That's a misrepresentation. There are many reasons why one wouldn't be able to own an EV. 

We've discussed the issues with Condos and Apartment buildings. If you're a Contractor or Sales person that is zipping around town all day, I don't think an EV would be convenient. 

But the cost-benefit when 95% of your driving is predictable commuting is undeniable. 

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2 hours ago, Boges said:

That's a misrepresentation. There are many reasons why one wouldn't be able to own an EV. 

Is it tho? I feel pretty strongly you DID argue that in more than one place.

SO if that wasn't your intent then you might want to look at that.

2 hours ago, Boges said:

But the cost-benefit when 95% of your driving is predictable commuting is undeniable. 

And here again. I've show that isn't entirely the case. it is for SOME people, absolutely. But - for others that just care about a decent ride it's not so obvious. My driving is extremely predictable, i'm not sure when the dust settled i'd be better off with an ev cost wise. It looks to me like i'm better off financially with a less expensive ICE

There's a lot of people who are going to benefit (and are right now) from this tech. For sure. But i think it's probably still a little more niche than you think. A little anyway

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Why don't you guys get a private room, eh? I mean the love for technology is just oozing between you. I cannot look any more.

Boges totally bought the sales brochure. He took it home and still has it. That's good, I'm glad you like your car but here's the thing. It may not be any better in the long run. That is the point of it all, is it not? Environmental sustainability. But I don't think these things are good. They have the toxic lithium cell that will end up causing environmental issues of it's own.

The problem already exists for cell phones. Since you liberal progs need a new cell phone every 2 years, guess where the old one usually goes? That's a lot of toxic waste going in the ground.

"According to a 2021 report by the Global E-waste Statistics Partnership, only 5% of all global e-waste is recycled, which includes phone batteries."

We were lied to about plastic bags 30 years ago, then it was CFL lamps (toxic mercury) and diodes (arsenic, germanium)
These were to be collected and recycled and there was supposed to be  "growing interest in recycling". How much of your blue box actually gets recycled now? And where are the CFL collection facilities.

Nowhere. Lies, all lies.

EV batteries are going to be the same problem.

"The recycling rate of electric vehicle batteries is currently relatively low, estimated to be around 5-10% globally. This is partly due to the fact that the technology for recycling electric vehicle batteries is still developing, and there are economic and logistical challenges to establishing efficient and cost-effective recycling processes."

 

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3 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Why don't you guys get a private room, eh? I mean the love for technology is just oozing between you. I cannot look any more.

Awww little guy - do you wish people would talk to you too? I mean, without laughing and pointing?

3 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

That's good, I'm glad you like your car but here's the thing. It may not be any better in the long run.

That's the potential challenge.  And it also depends a little on where you live.

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Since you liberal progs need a new cell phone every 2 years, guess where the old one usually goes? That's a lot of toxic waste going in the ground.

I appreciate communists like you don't believe in ownership of personal property but it's a bit of a stretch to think the average person gets a new cell evey two years :)

In any case, lithium isn't toxic. I don' t know where you heard that. And the batteries are quite recyclable, and while someone might throw a cell phone in the garbage nobody is going to toss out their tesla. That's not the biggest problem.  The massive pollution created by pulling it out of the ground in the first place is more of a problem.

I notice you don't like to cite your sources. Kind of odd. Is there some problem with them?

I did notice this:

Within the next decade, as much as 80% of the key ingredients in EV batteries could come from recycling, much as is the case today with the lead-acid batteries in conventional vehicles.

https://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2023/02/recycling-ev-batteries-looms-as-a-game-changer/

Looks like there's a bunch of companies setting up as well, and recycling of car batteries will be in full swing pretty fast.

You're like the opposite of him - there are serious problems to be addressed but you're taking the easy ones and trying to stretch them into absurdity.

 

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1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

In any case, lithium isn't toxic.

Anything that is extracted from earth, will have negative environmental impacts. I mean, it takes about 2.2 million liters of water, to create a ton of lithium. Its harmful to soil, and causes air contamination where it is mined, and has an immense carbon footprint (ironically enough, considering that the end product when factoring in vehicles, does not when being used). Calling the mining of current battery components clean, or ignoring how harmful that they can be to humans would be a mischaracterization.

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

nobody is going to toss out their tesla

Only 5% of lithium batteries are recycled, globally. Most of it goes to waste (unfortunately). So you're right, while a Tesla won't get thrown out, typically--50% of its battery components would still go to waste.

Some companies have claimed as little as 5% but correct me if I'm wrong, I have not seen a single company that has boasted 100% of the technology being recycled.

At scale, this means you're still globally dealing with an environmental problem, at the end of the vehicle's life. Not everyone will have the technology to safely dispose of these batteries. Liquid state batteries are unstable, and known to cause fires and even explosions if disposed of improperly.

Look up garbage truck fires caused by lithium batteries, or simply them causing fires in landfills around the world.

Brings me to my next point -- the technology as is, is not the future.

Solid state batteries, is.

You could store more power, at half the weight, and where you could charge a vehicle very rapidly and require far less components to cool as temperatures would remain stable.

This would truly unlock the technology, and make far more sense, when looking at trucks, aircraft and truly electrifying vehicles.

Key to the future, would be creating a technology that is 100% recyclable and made with abundant materials that would reduce the carbon footprint.

Right now, you're being sold the illusion of clean energy, and until it genuinely is and can compete with fuel in every way--will the technology lag behind for year to come, in terms of sales.

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5 hours ago, CdnFox said:

In any case, lithium isn't toxic.

Of course it is toxic, just go look it up. It's not on me to spoonfeed you stupid azzes.
There are other toxic substances in them as well. If you knew how to read, you'd know I was referring to the lithium battery as a whole. If you knew how to read.

But you don...

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I notice you don't like to cite your sources. Kind of odd. Is there some problem with them?

I cannot divulge my sources, nor is it my obligation to spoon-feed you people. Today everything is available at the touch of a button.

Nothing I said is politically controversial, so relax you farthead.

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You're like the opposite of him - there are serious problems to be addressed but you're taking the easy ones and trying to stretch them into absurdity.

That's nice little fella but at least I have a point to make that's on-topic and that hopefully stimulates someone's brain cell.

Not yours  :rolleyes:  of course...

ETA: There is no solution to recycle Li batteries atm, so all spent batteries are essentially committed to the environment. That means toxic waste, for all you who don't habla.

Given the limited resource, and the toxic waste produced in recycling, my guess is the whole Li battery concept will become outdated. Especially the "custom designed" model. These batteries need to be standardized for recycling to work.

That's why this fleet of EV's will probably become obsolete quickly, to be replaced by a new standard.

It's also why I said Tesla owners may have bought themselves a blue-ray stereo, on wheels...

;) 

Edited by OftenWrong
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3 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Anything that is extracted from earth, will have negative environmental impacts. I mean, it takes about 2.2 million liters of water, to create a ton of lithium. Its harmful to soil, and causes air contamination where it is mined, and has an immense carbon footprint

Did you notice the bit where i said mining it was the problem? :)

3 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

So you're right, while a Tesla won't get thrown out, typically--50% of its battery components would still go to waste.

Currently 80 percent of car batteries are recycled. And they are worth a lot less to recycle than lithium will be. I did post where it's believed it will be 80 percent or higher recovery.

4 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

At scale, this means you're still globally dealing with an environmental problem, at the end of the vehicle's life.

Not significantly more than a regular vehicle. If you think lithium that's not recovered is somehow bad for the environment, try motor oil, an ice car has to dispose of a lot of that over it's life and they don't recover 100 percent of that either. And As i said, and as you basically repeated, the problem with lithium is not in it's disposal, but in the extraction and mining.

4 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Brings me to my next point -- the technology as is, is not the future.

Solid state batteries, is.

Solid state might be, depending on what you mean by that. Solid state is not a specific technology per se, it's still in development. . Even more interesting is quantum battery tech which would be massively lighter and far faster to charge and much more energy dense even than most of the envisioned possible solid batteries.  And they're getting close to some of that tech. And hydrogen keeps threatening to make a comeback.

Bottom line is we agree the tech for EV's isn't mature yet.  It's close, but it has a ways to go.

I don't know how much of an 'illusion' it is.  I've seen studies which attempt to calculate in ALL the variables and go to great lengths to do it and still seem to show a benefit over ICE in many situations, but it depends on variables. Not always in all cases everywhere.  In places like quebec and bc where the power is mostly renewable hydro, for many drivers there probably is an environmental benefit.

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1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

Of course it is toxic, just go look it up. It's not on me to spoonfeed you stupid azzes.

I looked it up. Not toxic. Sorry little fella :)

1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

 


There are other toxic substances in them as well.

Nope. All inert for modern ones. The cobalt has been replaced with things like manganese or phospate.

Strike two little guy :)

1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

I cannot divulge my sources, nor is it my obligation to spoon-feed you people. Today everything is available at the touch of a button.

Yes - it is very difficult to actually cite the voices in your head :)

1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

ETA: There is no solution to recycle Li batteries atm, so all spent batteries are essentially committed to the environment. That means toxic waste, for all you who don't habla.

Lithium batteries are currently 100 percent recyclable. There's literally no problems with doing so anymore. For consumer electronics the problem is people just toss them, not that they can't be recycled. But nobody's going to just throw their tesla in the garbage can.

1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

Given the limited resource, and the toxic waste produced in recycling, my guess is the whole Li battery concept will become outdated. Especially the "custom designed" model. These batteries need to be standardized for recycling to work.

They are standardized, tonnes of places recycle them.

They will eventually be replaced by better tech but not for the reasons you state.

1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

That's why this fleet of EV's will probably become obsolete quickly, to be replaced by a new standard.

It's also why I said Tesla owners may have bought themselves a blue-ray stereo, on wheels...

Well yes and no.  If battery tech improves or changes it should be pretty easy to convert a tesla over to the new battery tech when it's current batteries start to die. Even if the battery changes it's still putting out electricity.  For example, i can replace my old disposable battery in my old flashlight for a new rechargable lithium one and get the benefits of more power and longer life without buying a new battery.

Newer battery tech should be smaller and  lighter. So there should be more than enough room in the vehicle for it when the day comes to upgrade. it's not like replacing an engine.

That wasn't your worst post little guy!  :) tell your mom i said you could have an extra cookie in your luchbag for snacktime at recess :)

Edited by CdnFox
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I'll put in my two cents again. I know the sales of EV's are rising, and have been for a couple of years. I don't know about the rest of the world but in North America there have been some pretty big subsidies from taxpayers for those pricey EV's. It's been stated that China is a leader in EV production and use, but their emissions are still rising. I suppose it's likely because the Chinese also have a fondness for coal fired electricity plants. It sort of defeats the purpose of all those EV's over there does it not?

China's new coal plant approvals surge in 2022, highest since 2015 -research | Reuters

All over the world, most of the population and therefore most of the cars are concentrated in the cities. And a significant number of people live in apartment buildings. Isn't that going to be a massive and costly challenge to upgrade each and every parking spot with faster charging systems? I'm pretty sure Level 1 charging isn't going to cut it.

I too will jump on the Corolla bandwagon here. Corollas are bulletproof and affordable. Way more reliable than most other cars on the market that cost 3 or 4 times as much.?

From leafscore.com

When buying a new car, reliability should be a primary determining factor. Electric cars have a confusing reputation from a reliability standpoint. While these vehicles tend to have top-of-the-line technology and efficiency features, many models are notorious for breaking down frequently.

I'll say it again, I just wish governments would let the market decide and not have a thumb on the scale. But bureaucrats always know best right??

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1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

Not significantly more than a regular vehicle.

It should be significantly less!

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

there probably is an environmental benefit.

Switching just because, doesn't fix anything. There should be technologies in place to maximize EVs cleanliness and efficiency, along with it being a better option in all ways, including price point.

Toyota has the right idea in not fully letting go of its fuel powered vehicles. It understands the lofty time frames where somehow the sell of fuel powered cars will stop is optimistic at best.

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33 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

It should be significantly less!

Well that's arguably true, but i think they would say the environmental savings is the fuel consumption, lack of oil changes, etc. rather than the disposal of the vehicle at end of useful life.

33 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Switching just because, doesn't fix anything. There should be technologies in place to maximize EVs cleanliness and efficiency, along with it being a better option in all ways, including price point.

Well i tend to agree but for some people it is a real savings and there's reasons for ev's beyond just the environment, and i do support people having choices as consumers. So if someone thinks it's a benefit to their particular circumstance then i say fill yer boots.

I think arguing that it's never a good idea is probably as hard to defend as saying its always a good idea.

33 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Toyota has the right idea in not fully letting go of its fuel powered vehicles. It understands the lofty time frames where somehow the sell of fuel powered cars will stop is optimistic at best.

oh i'm pretty sure most of the manufacturers will keep a few ice models around :)

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3 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

is the fuel consumption, lack of oil changes

Car parts still wear. You still have to replace wipers, brake pads, rotors, calipers, wheel rotations etc.

Battery issues become far more costly to fix if out of warranty. Car accidents could become staggering in price. Especially if a battery is compromised.

I can change my oil for pennies.

I know many who fix their own cars.

Gas is king.

Matter of fact me and the wife plan to buy a gas station in a tropical country to make it our vacation stay.

Gas is going nowhere in a significant portion of the world.

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