Ontario needs to invest in EVs as a realistic Option.

[CdnFox]

2 minutes ago, herbie said:

I have no doubt the diesel emission cheaters at VW can also convince some people they sell cars that get 94 mpg....

They can actually!   You just need a 94 mile hill.

[Legato]

EV bubble popped?

t’s been a crushing week for the EV industry as the bad news that has been brewing for months was laid bare in the quarterly reports. Across the industry, corporate CEO’s are all admitting that demand is unexpectedly slow, orders are down, and suddenly projects are being delayed “indefinitely”.

Article here...https://joannenova.com.au/2023/10/vw-orders-are-down-50-ford-loses-38000-on-each-car-toyota-chief-says-people-are-waking-up/

 

[Boges]

On 10/31/2023 at 2:24 PM, cannuck said:

So far, Li Ion battery recycling is in its infancy from what I understand.

But the 6L/100km is pure nonsense.  VW sold the "3 litre Lupo) decades ago (name is not engine displacement, but 3L/100kms fuel consumption).   I can tell you from personal experience the BTE of ICEs is no where near the end of its development/improvement.   A lot of really exciting work going on.

Worth noting:  EVERYTHING so far in this thread is all about devising newer, more expensive, more polluting ways of doing more of the same things that got us into this mess in the first place.  Any real effort to protect our sustainability starts with how to do LESS or NONE of the foregoing.

WTF is a Lupo? 

Here's an article/blog showing cars people actually buy. The only cars achieving anything appreciably under 6l/100km are hybrids. 

https://www.castlegartoyota.com/blog/2023/01/31/the-top-9-most-fuel-efficient-cars-on-the-market#:~:text=Starting off strong%2C the Toyota,CE%2C SE and LE trims.

[Legato]

2 hours ago, Boges said:

WTF is a Lupo? 

Here's an article/blog showing cars people actually buy. The only cars achieving anything appreciably under 6l/100km are hybrids. 

https://www.castlegartoyota.com/blog/2023/01/31/the-top-9-most-fuel-efficient-cars-on-the-market#:~:text=Starting off strong%2C the Toyota,CE%2C SE and LE trims.

It might have been the most illogical car in its lineup, but the Lupo 3L was more than just a fuel-efficient city car; it was a statement.

 

The Lupo was the smallest car in Volkswagen's lineup back in 1999. While other carmakers tried convincing customers that hybrids are the future, the German carmaker supported the diesel idea. It worked very hard to develop the most fuel-efficient production vehicle in the world, and it succeeded. It didn't even matter that it was too expensive to justify its fuel-efficiency. Yet, the car was sold in important numbers and certainly not for its low fuel consumption but for its very small CO2 emissions.

For starters, the Lupo 3L took its name for its fuel-efficiency. It proved an average fuel consumption of just 3 l/100 km (78.4 mph-US), and that was an outstanding result by any standards. While the exterior looked very similar to the standard Lupo, some body parts were made from aluminum and magnesium to save weight. As a result, it was about 100 kg (220 lbs) lighter than the rest of the range.

Inside, there were a different set of seats with magnesium frames and slim padding to save weight. Volkswagen used the sound-deadening materials only for the firewall. It didn't feature air-conditioning or any sound system in standard trim level, but the Tiptronic automatic gearbox was as standard.

Under the hood, Volkswagen installed a three-cylinder 1.2-liter turbo-diesel engine. It was lighter and tuned for maximum efficiency. But, at the end of the day, it offered 50% less fuel consumption than its 1.4-liter TDI sibling.

 

https://www.autoevolution.com/volkswagen/lupo/

[Boges]

45 minutes ago, Legato said:

It might have been the most illogical car in its lineup, but the Lupo 3L was more than just a fuel-efficient city car; it was a statement.

 

The Lupo was the smallest car in Volkswagen's lineup back in 1999. While other carmakers tried convincing customers that hybrids are the future, the German carmaker supported the diesel idea. It worked very hard to develop the most fuel-efficient production vehicle in the world, and it succeeded. It didn't even matter that it was too expensive to justify its fuel-efficiency. Yet, the car was sold in important numbers and certainly not for its low fuel consumption but for its very small CO2 emissions.

For starters, the Lupo 3L took its name for its fuel-efficiency. It proved an average fuel consumption of just 3 l/100 km (78.4 mph-US), and that was an outstanding result by any standards. While the exterior looked very similar to the standard Lupo, some body parts were made from aluminum and magnesium to save weight. As a result, it was about 100 kg (220 lbs) lighter than the rest of the range.

Inside, there were a different set of seats with magnesium frames and slim padding to save weight. Volkswagen used the sound-deadening materials only for the firewall. It didn't feature air-conditioning or any sound system in standard trim level, but the Tiptronic automatic gearbox was as standard.

Under the hood, Volkswagen installed a three-cylinder 1.2-liter turbo-diesel engine. It was lighter and tuned for maximum efficiency. But, at the end of the day, it offered 50% less fuel consumption than its 1.4-liter TDI sibling.

 

https://www.autoevolution.com/volkswagen/lupo/

I'm sure all these people who won't get EVs because so far there isn't an EV Pick-up Trucks that go 1,000 kms will be lining up to buy that. ?

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Boges said:

I'm sure all these people who won't get EVs because so far there isn't an EV Pick-up Trucks that go 1,000 kms will be lining up to buy that. ?

They wont buy either - they'll buy pick up trucks, and they'll vote in gov'ts that let them buy pick up trucks.

We're going to have to continue to improve the tech if we want to get total buy in.
 

The thing is - a lot of the time you're better off shooting for a 90 percent solution rather than a 100.  If you can solve the problem 90 percent of the way you often achieve more than if you TRY to go to 100 and encouter problems that lead to failures.

 

[Boges]

1 minute ago, CdnFox said:

They wont buy either - they'll buy pick up trucks, and they'll vote in gov'ts that let them buy pick up trucks.

We're going to have to continue to improve the tech if we want to get total buy in.
 

The thing is - a lot of the time you're better off shooting for a 90 percent solution rather than a 100.  If you can solve the problem 90 percent of the way you often achieve more than if you TRY to go to 100 and encouter problems that lead to failures.

 

Which is why the Ford F-150 Lighting is a bit of a fools errand. The battery is too large to be practical. 

A car like the Hyundai Ioniq 5 would meeting 90% of a drivers needs and can charge pretty quick. 

[cannuck]

Our diesel VWs, Audi and Ram meet 100% of our needs all day, every day.  Things no electric can or will ever be able to do with current battery technology.  If we are travelling each and every one can easily rack up 1,000 kms. at very illegal speeds and any weather.   If you want to see useless: hook your Tesla to a trailer in the winter and see how far you can go.

[Perspektiv]

1 hour ago, cannuck said:

Our diesel VWs, Audi and Ram meet 100% of our needs all day, every day.  Things no electric can or will ever be able to do with current battery technology.  If we are travelling each and every one can easily rack up 1,000 kms. at very illegal speeds and any weather.   If you want to see useless: hook your Tesla to a trailer in the winter and see how far you can go.

Its going to be decades before adoption of EVs globally starts to make sense.

Like any evolving technology. Make it the best possible option. Offer affordable options within this, and fuel will stop being the dominant technology. 

[Perspektiv]

4 hours ago, Boges said:

Which is why the Ford F-150 Lighting is a bit of a fools errand.

At its price point, you can buy a top trim truck, and many other things. 

It makes no sense.

People who work with trucks want something that works. Are often types that are resistant to change, and certainly aren't the type to compromise. 

[CdnFox]

1 minute ago, Perspektiv said:

Its going to be decades before adoption of EVs globally starts to make sense.

Like any evolving technology. Make it the best possible option. Offer affordable options within this, and fuel will stop being the dominant technology. 

Im afraid this, in fact, the correct answer.  we didn't need subsidies to get people to drop horses and go with cars. The calculator took over the abacus pretty fast when it became available.

we should be pushing the next gen of research.

[Perspektiv]

15 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

The calculator took over the abacus pretty fast when it became available.

I remember the computers I used as a kid, with the giant ball as a mouse, in the keyboard:

These were it. One of my friends bought a Pentium computer for 2 grand, and was the first of his group to be able to afford one.

2 grand for slightly better than the above computer. 

I still remember 56K modems. Friends telling you not call for an hour, so you knew they were downloading porn.

Printers that sounded like a goose being tortured. Needing to rip off perforated paper and having to align it perfectly.

It just wasn't a hot item.

Once internet became lightning fast, and I could buy a great computer for under 500 bucks, it makes it a lot harder not to buy one.

EVs will be no different.

Tesla made them look sexy. Now, make the technology and price point sexy and you have a home run.

Right now  you have a bunt, at best.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Perspektiv

[ExFlyer]

Ontario needs to invest in Electricty Generation  as a realistic Option.

Before it  can do anything. it is not Ontario alone. If Canada is going to wean off fossil fuel, it needs gazzilion dollars worth of new electric power plants.

[herbie]

Well stated Mr. Obvious.

[ExFlyer]

19 hours ago, herbie said:

Well stated Mr. Obvious.

Not so obvious to the uber EV proponents.

[herbie]

They have difficulty understanding the opponents think no one is able to do two things at once.

They['ll soon tell us it's either EVs or heatpumps... and belittle both

[Boges]

I've tried to demonstrate over and over again, without many comprehending it, even if Natural Gas was used to continue to generate electricity and fill the gap in demand as we move towards electrification and more renewable electricity, we're still way better off in terms of emissions as EVs and Heat Pumps are WAY!!!! more efficient than ICE vehicles and Gas Furnaces. 

Not to mention the emissions it takes to physically refine and transport gasoline and natural gas to where it needs to be instead of a centralized location to generate electricity. 

[herbie]

Some people are so damn stubborn (refuse to think) that 200 years ago they'd argue that a fireplace in every room was more fuel efficient than central heating.

Arguing that 100,000 gasoline vehicles produce less CO2 than an LNG powered electrical plant that charges 100,000 EVs. Claiming every single obstacle in making EVs & batteries is a reason not to, all the while dismissing every obstacle there was exploring, extracting, refining and distributing oil as well as building far more complicated vehicles.

SUpid. obstinate resistance to any change in anything at all, few with anything to personally gain and all overlooking any personal benefit. Worse because they oppose any benefit to ALL citizens even if it benefits them personally.

[CdnFox]

3 minutes ago, herbie said:

Quote

Some people are so damn stubborn (refuse to think) that 200 years ago they'd argue that a fireplace in every room was more fuel efficient than central heating.

 

Nobody anywhere ever argued that.  And in fact when central heating became a thing everyone moved to it when they could and no gov't subsidies were needed.

Quote

Arguing that 100,000 gasoline vehicles produce less CO2 than an LNG powered electrical plant that charges 100,000 EVs. Claiming every single obstacle in making EVs & batteries is a reason not to, all the while dismissing every obstacle there was exploring, extracting, refining and distributing oil as well as building far more complicated vehicles.

That's not really what they're arguing. But as usual - you have to be dishonest and dismissive so you can score virtue points isntead of making actual points.

 

Quote

SUpid. obstinate resistance to any change in anything at all, few with anything to personally gain and all overlooking any personal benefit. Worse because they oppose any benefit to ALL citizens even if it benefits them personally.

Whereas you're just stupid and obstinate about everything    I see  

There are major issues with EV's as a complete replacement for cars.  The tech is not QUITE there yet for that, and if it were then people would switch without needing to be told to.  Which is already the case in the specific circumstances where ev's make sense.

 

BUt as usual as a left wing loser you must pretend that there's NOOOOO issues at all and EVERYTHING everyone who disagrees with you says has no merit and they're just being 'obstinate'.

Which makes you look like a m0r0n and makes anyone who might agree with your points wonder if maybe they're not on the wrong side after all.

[herbie]

8 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

BUt as usual as a left wing loser

and as usual you have nothing to actually contribute besides the trigger words you've been brainwashed with.

And I DO apologize for not having a 200 year old quote from you opposing central heating and continue my delusion that obstacles can and will be overcome. For now I'm satisfied with your "EVs not ready for Prime Time" quote as I go shop for one.

Edited November 10, 2023 by herbie

[CdnFox]

2 minutes ago, herbie said:

and as usual you have nothing to actually contribute besides the trigger words you've been brainwashed with.

LOL - you're talking to the mirror i assume This thread is full of my contributions actually discussing the issue instead of making up weird lies about central heating and acting like a tard about other people's views - we cannot say the same about you.

3 minutes ago, herbie said:

And I DO apologize for not having a 200 year old quote from you opposing central heating

In short you apologize for being a lying piece of rectal sputum who made shit up and now that it's been pointed out it's MY fault you were lying.

Accepted.

Quote

For now I'm satisfied with your "EVs not ready for Prime Time" quote as I go shop for one.

Ahh - so more lies.  I say 'good where it fits but doesn't fit everywhere' and you twist that to 'not ready for prime time'.   Gotcha.

So - why don't you own one already? I mean - they're such a perfect replacement and everyone can afford one - why did you wait till now? Surely you own one already?!?!

[Legato]

1 hour ago, herbie said:

as I go shop for one.

You buying a new battery for your Tonka toy?

[OftenWrong]

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

LOL - you're talking to the mirror i assume This thread is full of my contributions actually discussing the issue instead of making up weird lies about central heating and acting like a tard about other people's views - we cannot say the same about you.

In short you apologize for being a lying piece of rectal sputum who made shit up and now that it's been pointed out it's MY fault you were lying.

Accepted.

Ahh - so more lies.  I say 'good where it fits but doesn't fit everywhere' and you twist that to 'not ready for prime time'.   Gotcha.

So - why don't you own one already? I mean - they're such a perfect replacement and everyone can afford one - why did you wait till now? Surely you own one already?!?!

Poor little herbie doesn't get it. I was gonna say the same thing but I kinda gave up. Today is be nice to those with autism spectrum disorder day.  

But hey, if he or anyone wants to go buy an overpriced vehicle that has sub-par performance, especially in winter, let him go on. Fill yer boots, lads.

2 minutes ago, Legato said:

You buying a new battery for your Tonka toy?

The got the new Tesla with wind-up rubber band coming out.

[herbie]

Like I pointed out dozens of times, some people simply repeat tired arguments against and have this opium pipe dream than Ontarians will still be building cars without investing in EVs.
You can keep driving your car until it dies, you die, or you run out of money. Your kid won't be buying one like yours. More likely your grandkids will be eating Alberta oil processed into Beyond Meat burgers before putting it as gas in their car.

[cannuck]

On 11/1/2023 at 2:07 PM, herbie said:

I have no doubt the diesel emission cheaters at VW can also convince some people they sell cars that get 94 mpg....

the thousands of people who drove and still drive their Lupos would certainly not agree with you (and your obviously totally uninformed opinion).