Police State Versus The Angry Mob

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Something you think would already exist in the US is being proposed in a reform bill - a national police misconduct registry to follow officers fired for misconduct and make sure they just don’t join another force. Concealing documented misconduct from prospective employers should be a serious offence. Incredibly, the same problem has existed in medicine for years. 

 

The incredulous protections for "thumpers" has a lot to do with city liability and large settlement awards.   

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, SpankyMcFarland said:

The guy was in his home. They could have taken the other family member with them if she felt in danger and they felt unable to deal with the situation without killing somebody. Allegedly, he was lying on the ground when he was killed. The mistake he made was calling the cops in the first place. 

 

OK, but the cops were still placed in the middle of it for whatever reason.    If somebody else dies at the hands of our despondent hero, the cops are blamed for that too.    It's a thankless job.    

More female officers and less testosterone might help.

[Zeitgeist]

3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Legislation comes from elected representation, so it is back on citizens.

Deadly force is also authorized by legislation, and law enforcement methods are funded by government.

 

Yes, that’s why there’s value in political activism.

[bush_cheney2004]

4 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Yes, that’s why there’s value in political activism.

 

Police budgets have increased, so apparently other groups are better at their "activism".

[Shady]

4 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Strongly disagree.  They're very well paid and we're over-policed.

Then you need to direct your ire toward legislators.  It’s not the police that continue to pass laws.  It’s only their job to enforce them.  Legislators are free to change or eliminate unnecessary laws.

[Zeitgeist]

25 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Police budgets have increased, so apparently other groups are better at their "activism".

That’s why there have been calls in Toronto to reallocate about 20% of the Toronto police budget to root community causes, a proposal black police chief Saunders calls naive.  I do think we’re over-policed.  Seeing more police than people in a Toronto park recently, hounding people about social distancing, carrying a beer, or peeing in a bush, and issuing tickets for all three, sealed the deal for me.  Half as many police would have achieved the same level of tension.

Many of these officers are making six figures.  It’s an enormous chunk of the Toronto budget, the biggest item.  Now, one might say that Toronto wouldn’t be as safe as it has been with fewer police, yet the rise in police numbers has coincided with a rise in gun violence in the past few years.  I think as the city has grown and boomed, that wealth has accumulated much more in some areas than others.  Housing affordability coupled with transience and precarity have created new tensions.  I don’t think Toronto or many of Canada’s cities face much of the brutality we see in the George Floyd incident.  Our problems with race seem more subtle and I think have more to do with privilege and entitlement. They may be more socio-economic than race-related, though race is still a thing here.  We tend to superimpose US narratives on the Canadian context, which is a different context that also varies regionally within Canada.  

Edited June 8, 2020 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

6 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

....  We tend to superimpose US narratives on the Canadian context, which is a different context that also varies regionally within Canada.  

 

It varies in the United States as well.

I am amazed that the Black Lives Matter movement has so easily penetrated the Canadian psyche and consciousness to the point of protest and riots.   Even the virtue signaling blackface PM couldn't resist the photo op.

American narrative....American social media....American results.

[Zeitgeist]

5 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

It varies in the United States as well.

I am amazed that the Black Lives Matter movement has so easily penetrated the Canadian psyche and consciousness to the point of protest and riots.   Even the virtue signaling blackface PM couldn't resist the photo op.

American narrative....American social media....American results.

Yes but then we like to pat ourselves on the back for not having it as bad as in the US, which can be another form of self-deception.  A good example is Covid.  It’s easy to look at the higher percentage of cases in the US overall and think we’ve achieved something, but when we look at populations and jurisdictions, we see that some US states have outperformed some similar-sized Canadian provinces and vice versa.  Context is everything.  We have different histories and regional differences.  Sometimes it isn’t better or worse.  Sometimes it’s just different.  

Edited June 8, 2020 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Yes but then we like to pat ourselves on the back for not having it as bad as in the US, which can be another form of self-deception.

 

Canada has its own demons to deal with, but the American narrative is a splendid distraction, piped in by always flowing American media.

First Nations have to be wondering...."George Floyd"....seriously ?     He is what gets Canada excited and off its collective ass ?

[New World Disorder]

2 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

It varies in the United States as well.

I am amazed that the Black Lives Matter movement has so easily penetrated the Canadian psyche and consciousness to the point of protest and riots.   Even the virtue signaling blackface PM couldn't resist the photo op.

American narrative....American social media....American results.

At least Trump got his wall. Well, more like a fence. 

[Michael Hardner]

6 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

1.  The real question is why the SJWs have not joined law enforcement in large numbers to affect change.    Are they better at being victims ?

2. Raging against the cops is not a new experience, even if the kids with smart phones and social media think so.

 

1. You don't know if they have or not.  Institutional behavior is a complicated thing to assess.

2.  This is a characterization of a certain type of protestor.  But it doesn't help with the present problem.

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Michael Hardner said:

1. You don't know if they have or not.  Institutional behavior is a complicated thing to assess.

2.  This is a characterization of a certain type of protestor.  But it doesn't help with the present problem.

 

1. My opinion is that they have not in large enough numbers to bring about the change they desire.   Or those that do are eventually co-opted by the cynical machine.    And that includes "visible minority" law enforcement officers.

2. The point is one of historical perspective having lived in the U.S. since the 1950's...been here many times before.   Yet police budgets and methods have grown stronger and more militaristic in that time despite the protests and riots...or because of them.

[Michael Hardner]

6 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

... police budgets and methods have grown stronger and more militaristic in that time despite the protests and riots...or because of them.

The relationship between police budgets and societal attitude towards policing is a complicated thing to assess.  Even a rigorous academic study would find itself mired in chicken-and-egg questions pretty quickly.  

I'm circumspect on this whole question, though.  It seems to me we are in the middle of a moment that can be assessed properly until it's passed.  Did NASCAR and Mitt Romney just join another manifestation of the "new populism" ?  Is it 1964 ?  Or is it 1992 and Rodney King ?  

 

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

The relationship between police budgets and societal attitude towards policing is a complicated thing to assess.  Even a rigorous academic study would find itself mired in chicken-and-egg questions pretty quickly. 

 

Sure...it's complicated, but not a surprise.   There has also been large growth in private security and surveillance products at the same time.   Amazon will sell you dozens of different kinds.    911 call infrastructure and geo location has been expanded too.   The public is sending a mixed message.

 

Quote

I'm circumspect on this whole question, though.  It seems to me we are in the middle of a moment that can be assessed properly until it's passed.  Did NASCAR and Mitt Romney just join another manifestation of the "new populism" ?  Is it 1964 ?  Or is it 1992 and Rodney King ?  

 

NASCAR and Mitt Romney are just following obvious marketing and political opportunity. 

Where were they years ago ?    Protecting the U.S. flag and national anthem from the kneeling Colin Kaepernick.

Now Canada wants to play the game.

[Michael Hardner]

6 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

1. NASCAR and Mitt Romney are just following obvious marketing and political opportunity. 

2. Where were they years ago ?   

3. Protecting the U.S. flag and national anthem from the kneeling Colin Kaepernick.

4. Now Canada wants to play the game.

1. I'm surprised that you have succumbed to the call to make claims on what is in someone's heart.
2. Maybe they were asleep ?  I'm not saying they were, but it's too cynical to claim an individual isn't being authentic, at least to me.
3. The NFL itself has made statements of contrition.
4. This is our game.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. I'm surprised that you have succumbed to the call to make claims on what is in someone's heart.
2. Maybe they were asleep ?  I'm not saying they were, but it's too cynical to claim an individual isn't being authentic, at least to me.

 

So now they are WOKE ?    How convenient....I may be cynical, but at least I am consistent.

 

Quote

3. The NFL itself has made statements of contrition.
4. This is our game.

 

See above.

Canada is just reacting to the American narrative and social media spectacle....it is not organic.   

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

1. So now they are WOKE ?    How convenient....I may be cynical, but at least I am consistent.

2. Canada is just reacting to the American narrative and social media spectacle....it is not organic.   

1.  Well, good.
2. That makes sense.

[Rue]

9 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

It varies in the United States as well.

I am amazed that the Black Lives Matter movement has so easily penetrated the Canadian psyche and consciousness to the point of protest and riots.   Even the virtue signaling blackface PM couldn't resist the photo op.

American narrative....American social media....American results.

Yes.  Our issues with police are there for sure but they do not have attached with them the identical  black American experiences in the sense we did not have the same Southern history  although we most certainly have our ethnic ghettos. Our ghettos are based on a more passive aggressive expression.

We are less likely to shoot and burn and more likely to smile and we don't limit ourselves to skin color as much as Americans might. We like to also categorize by religion, language, country of origin as much. 

I have always contended everyone discriminates but in America you guys are just more in your face direct than us and we do collectively . We are less likely to  express emotions based on rebellion but base it instead on conformity even then in a toned down manner.

However I generalize for discussions. Obviously it's just an attempt at explaining some differences.

I think if you ask our  blacks, many will say they came from countries where their oppressors were black not only white. It's a misnomer to think all blacks feel as American blacks from what I have been told by black people. I do not speak for black people. I barely can handle my own feelings.

I just agree that we Canadians get caught up trying to be hip Americans.

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by Rue

[Argus]

13 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

I’ve stated what I think the police should no longer enforce.  People can disagree.  I’ve also said that much better training on use of force must be provided.  Force is a go-to for a few too many of the wrong things.  

Has it escaped your notice that the entire purpose of the police is to 'enforce' the law, and mostly on people who don't respect the law and have already broken the law. Virtually every story of police beating/harming/killing a black man has involved that individual's criminality and resisting arrest.

[OftenWrong]

1 hour ago, Rue said:

I just agree that we Canadians get caught up trying to be hip Americans.

It's my chance to be on TV. Look Ma, I went to the protest!

-Plus there was nothin else to do, except drink, smoke pot and play video games for free.

[Argus]

11 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

We’ll have to see what the investigation shows. What did he say in the call, did the police know his history and why couldn’t they just have left the house and waited for reinforcements? The crisis intervention team should have been there. Bean bags have been used instead of bullets in some parts of the US when mentally ill patients are involved and don’t have a gun:

That's against policy. Suppose they actually DO have a gun, a shotgun, a rifle, in a closet or somewhere? You leave them alone and they can go get it. Or they can do something else if in a state of rage, like set fire to the house, or try to blow it up.

[Argus]

2 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

It's my chance to be on TV. Look Ma, I went to the protest!

-Plus there was nothin else to do, except drink, smoke pot and play video games for free.

And also, let's not forget, there is nothing a progressive loves so much as virtue signalling and parading around how superior they are. They love it way better than sex. The protests give them the opportunity to do that so they have absolutely no reason to stop. Hey, they get their daily walk for exercise, get to take selfies with black people in the background, shake their fist at 'the man' and feel all self-righteous all at the same time! Why would they ever stop!

[eyeball]

15 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Apparently you think most of the change must come from the police, instead of less criminal activity by citizens, failed mental health policies, homelessness, or  the city, provincial, and federal legislation that creates the competing interests and power struggle in the first place.

Inequality of power is where the roots of the problem are.  Competition for influence is great and overwhelmingly dominated by wealthy people.  It's always popular for people to roll their eyes at any suggestion that unequal economic outcomes are responsible for anything but what I'm talking about is the unequal input at the front end of an economic process that includes lobbying for advantage and favour.  Narrow that power gap and the wealth gap will naturally close on its own. 

[Argus]

What I suspect is going to happen in the United States is the Baltimore Syndrome.

In 2014 there were 211 murders in Baltimore. Then came the Freddy Gray incident, with a tidal wave of criticism and denunciation of the police from all corners amid accusations of racism. The justice department investigated the department. It ordered them to do much of what people are demanding from police now.

"including limits on when and how the [police] can engage individuals suspected of criminal activity. It orders more training for police on de-escalation tactics and interactions with youths, those with mental illness and protesters, as well as more supervision for officers"

In 2015 there were 344 murders in Baltimore. Because the police backed off from all proactive enforcement, avoided black areas wherever possible, called supervisors on almost every call that involved a black person (and almost all did), and ignored suspicious activity. The gangs thrived, crime of every kind surged while arrests plunged. Five years later crime and homicide remains at record highs, with 348 murders last year. Most of the murders are of black people. But THOSE black lives just don't matter.

So what I think is going to happen in cities like New York is that crime and violence is going to thrive. And hundred and hundreds of additional black people are going to be murdered. But don't worry, that won't be by police. So it doesn't matter.

Edited June 8, 2020 by Argus

[Infidel Dog]

Sounds like Minneapolis is going to jump aboard with your "Baltimore Syndrome." How far will it spread after that? Who knows. The "Progressive" road to utopia is all about incremental small victories though. It's like South Park's Underpants Gnome strategy except it's "First, degrade and destroy Western society, then...UTOPIA."

Quote

(CNN) — Nine members of the Minneapolis City Council on Sunday announced they intend to defund and dismantle the city’s police department following the police killing of George Floyd.

Council President Lisa Bender told CNN that with the nine votes the city council members would have a veto-proof majority of the council’s 13 members.

Pressed for details on what the dismantling might look like, Bender told CNN police funding would be shifted to other needs, and the city council would discuss how to replace the current police department.

“The idea of having no police department is certainly not in the short term,” Bender said.

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by Infidel Dog