Pipeline protestors need to be jailed

[Moonlight Graham]

18 hours ago, jacee said:

They did. Delgamuukw 1997.

BC and federal governments have ignored it. 

Therefore, civil disobedience is in progress. 

What does that court decision specifically say and how does it apply here?

A second trial was also ordered for the case and never heard.

[Zeitgeist]

Moved to Teck Frontier thread   

Edited February 25, 2020 by Zeitgeist

[eyeball]

18 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I own the land I live on, but it doesn't give me the right to ban federal police from coming on my land.  Unceded native land is their land but it's still within Canada, they don't live in their own sovereign country with their own laws, so why should they have any right to tell RCMP where to go?  It's ridiculous.

They live in their own unceded territory and govern it according to their own traditions and our's. In some cases the system we imposed on them takes precedence in others it doesn't. Wet'suwet'en is not in Canada as much as it's surrounded by it.

They have the right to tell the RCMP to get out of their territory until such time as the government has a treaty that says they can be there.  What's ridiculous is how many Canadians think they can just bully thru this notion that the colonially imposed government is the end all and be all of everything there is to do with it.  As if repeating colonial politicians saying it a million times is enough to make it so.

Edited February 25, 2020 by eyeball

[Moonlight Graham]

3 minutes ago, eyeball said:

They live in their own unceded territory and govern it according to their own traditions and our's. In some cases the system we imposed on them takes precedence in others it doesn't. Wet'suwet'en is not in Canada as much as it's surrounded by it.

I can't ever see a past Canadian PM ever agreeing to such a situation.

If they aren't in Canada then they shouldn't receive any of the rights and benefits.  Are they Canadian citizens?  Do they get a vote?

3 minutes ago, eyeball said:

They have the right to tell the RCMP to get out of their territory until such time as the government has a treaty that says they can be there.  What's ridiculous is how many Canadians think they can just bully thru this notion that the colonially imposed government is the end all and be all of everything there is to do with it.  As if repeating colonial politicians saying it a million times is enough to make it so.

This comes down to the law, and neither you nor I or lawyers on aboriginal legal rights.

[eyeball]

4 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I can't ever see a past Canadian PM ever agreeing to such a situation.

There's none in the present ready to do so either.  Canada was aghast at the thought of what UNDRIP implied when it was introduced.

Quote

If they aren't in Canada then they shouldn't receive any of the rights and benefits.  Are they Canadian citizens?  Do they get a vote?

I know, there's just too much for the typical Canadian to get their head around this. Like I said we were poring over the Magna Carta trying to justify all the yabuts and what ifs that crossed our minds when reconciliation came knocking where I live.  Took years to get over it.

Quote

This comes down to the law, and neither you nor I or lawyers on aboriginal legal rights.

Yeah, its like climate change, it should come down to scientists but it doesn't. 

[Zeitgeist]

20 minutes ago, eyeball said:

There's none in the present ready to do so either.  Canada was aghast at the thought of what UNDRIP implied when it was introduced.

I know, there's just too much for the typical Canadian to get their head around this. Like I said we were poring over the Magna Carta trying to justify all the yabuts and what ifs that crossed our minds when reconciliation came knocking where I live.  Took years to get over it.

Yeah, its like climate change, it should come down to scientists but it doesn't. 

Sovereignty in your book seems to mean having your cake and eating it too: free land, health care, education, and many other services from the government of Canada, without having to contribute to the expenses by paying taxes.  Oh, plus royalties from resource development on “Indigenous territory” without having to report income.  Unelected heredity chiefs deposing other heredity chiefs and elected chiefs to shut down the resource development that pays the royalties and provides Indigenous jobs.  This is what Indigenous sovereignty means to you?

But it’s all good to the privileged latte sipping green activists who were either born into privilege or have renounced work and collect pogey.  They’re supporting their unemployed Indigenous brothers and sisters in remote communities by “shutting down Canada.”  The highjacking of all causes Indigenous by the radical green left is the real story here, because resource developers don’t see viability in investing in these barren communities with so much political flack and regulation.  

Edited February 25, 2020 by Zeitgeist

[eyeball]

54 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Sovereignty in your book seems to mean having your cake and eating it too: free land, health care, education, and many other services from the government of Canada, without having to contribute to the expenses by paying taxes.  

Well, they did contribute half a continent to the effort don't forget. 

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Well, they did contribute half a continent to the effort don't forget. 

You need to study history.  Sadly it’s your line of thinking that’s going to maintain a broken system, a culture of dependence that can’t achieve self-sustainability because the city elites have decided resource development should stop and the Indigenous don’t need the dignity of work and independence.  Instead they should be kept idle on their cultural reserve, like desert animals in a nature reserve, so you can tell yourself colonial romantic stories of the noble savage living in harmony with the land.  In fact, it’s subsistence living, high unemployment, and water advisories in many remote Indigenous communities where jobs would make a life-changing difference.  I guess they’re taking care of climate change so you don’t have to.

Edited February 25, 2020 by Zeitgeist

[OftenWrong]

17 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

In fact, it’s subsistence living, high unemployment, and water advisories in many remote Indigenous communities where jobs would make a life-changing difference.

I've driven through Tyendinaga many times, down to Marysville. You can tell how well off people are by the size of the trucks parked in their driveways, and the boats and quad bikes.

Edited February 25, 2020 by OftenWrong
trimmed quote

[Zeitgeist]

19 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

I've driven through Tyendinaga many times, down to Marysville. You can tell how well off people are by the size of the trucks parked in their driveways, and the boats and quad bikes.

And that’s where most of Ontario’s protesters are from.  They do not speak for all First Nations.   

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

You need to study history.  Sadly it’s your line of thinking that’s going to maintain a broken system, a culture of dependence that can’t achieve self-sustainability because the city elites have decided resource development should stop and the Indigenous don’t need the dignity of work and independence.  Instead they should be kept idle on their cultural reserve, like desert animals in a nature reserve, so you can tell yourself colonial romantic stories of the noble savage living in harmony with the land.  In fact, it’s subsistence living, high unemployment, and water advisories in many remote Indigenous communities where jobs would make a life-changing difference.  I guess they’re taking care of climate change so you don’t have to.

 

Your thinking is so direct and forthright by all means please encourage the government's lawyers to talk exactly like you do when this ends up in court.  Especially the part about desert animals. 

[Yzermandius19]

If you want to let the Indians up, you can't do that in Confederation. Confederation is all about keeping the french in, keeping the americans out, and keeping the indians down.

[Zeitgeist]

6 hours ago, eyeball said:

 

Your thinking is so direct and forthright by all means please encourage the government's lawyers to talk exactly like you do when this ends up in court.  Especially the part about desert animals. 

I want to see the broken apartheid system end and the Indigenous flourish.  You want to maintain it and take away their job opportunities in the name of saving the planet, the very definition of a colonial attitude.  

[Yzermandius19]

4 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I want to see the broken apartheid system end and the Indigenous flourish.  You want to maintain it and take away their job opportunities in the name of saving the planet, the very definition of a colonial attitude.  

As bad as the Republic of Zeitgeist is, the Hereditary Chiefdom of Eyeball is far worse.

[Zeitgeist]

6 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

If you want to let the Indians up, you can't do that in Confederation. Confederation is all about keeping the french in, keeping the americans out, and keeping the indians down.

Trudeau and the Liberals (and Conservatives) have tried to hold the liberal democratic line in Canada and have done so relatively well until recently.  Trump has taken America in the Chinese and Russian direction of authoritarian capitalism.  While the US version is still the best of the three, prepare for the pushback against a deregulated, exclusive America by the Green Fascists.  It’s all a result of fears (founded and unfounded) of the Extinction Menace.  The challenge for all democracies going forward is occupying the middle ground between these opposing forces under the threat of extinction. 

[Yzermandius19]

8 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Trudeau and the Liberals (and Conservatives) have tried to hold the liberal democratic line in Canada and have done so relatively well until recently.  Trump has taken America in the Chinese and Russian direction of authoritarian capitalism.  While the US version is still the best of the three, prepare for the pushback against a deregulated, exclusive America by the Green Fascists.  It’s all a result of fears (founded and unfounded) of the Extinction Menace.  The challenge for all democracies going forward is occupying the middle ground between these opposing forces under the threat of extinction. 

Wrong Canada is moving towards the Chinese and Russian model, and America is holding the line against that nonsense. Trump has taken America away from the Chinese or Russian model, while Russia and China double down and Canada gets in bed with the Chicoms. America was closer to the Chinese or Russian model under Obama than under Trump and even then America was nowhere close to the Chinese or Russian model. The sky is not falling, and if you don't want America to move in the direction of the Chinese or Russian model, Bernie Sanders is that guy, not Donald Trump.

Edited February 25, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[Zeitgeist]

16 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Wrong. Trump has taken America away from the Chinese or Russian model, while Russia and China double down. America was closer to the Chinese or Russian model under Obama than under Trump and even then America was nowhere close to the Chinese or Russian model. The sky is not falling, and if you don't want America to move in the direction of the Chinese or Russian model, Bernie Sanders is that guy, not Donald Trump.

Bernie is the US transitional leader towards Green Fascism (Socialism plus Green New Deal).  Trump is the transitional US leader towards authoritarian capitalism (political control of justice system, cronyism, protectionist trade policy, fake news).  Choose your poison.  

[Yzermandius19]

9 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Bernie is the US transitional leader towards Green Fascism (Socialism plus Green New Deal).  Trump is the transitional US leader towards authoritarian capitalism (political control of justice system, cronyism, protectionist trade policy, fake news).  Choose your poison.  

The "Green Fascists" do more fake news, political control of the justice system, cronyism and protectionism than the "Authoritarian Capitalists", so I'm gonna have to go with "Authoritarian Capitalism" hands down on that one. Obvious lesser of evils is obvious. Green Fascism ain't winning any election in America any time soon, the Democrats can't run on that platform and win.

I disagree with your whole notion that both political parties are moving towards the extreme's, it's just the Democrats and only for now, they can't keep it up without continuing to lose, also Trump is moving the Republicans away from the far right, not towards it. The Democrats are becoming more extreme, but doing so will not win them elections, the Republicans are becoming less extreme, and doing so will help them win elections, moving towards the extreme's is a loser politically speaking, therefore if that trend started to happen, it would eventually self correct after losing all the time makes them change course or perish.

Edited February 25, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[Zeitgeist]

4 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

The "Green Fascists" do more fake news, political control of the justice system, cronyism and protectionism than the "Authoritarian Capitalists", so I'm gonna have to go with "Authoritarian Capitalism" hands down on that one. Obvious lesser of evils is obvious. Green Fascism ain't winning any election in America any time soon, the Democrats can't run on that platform and win.

Canada is being pushed to choose as well. The Green Fascists are making a big push. 

[bush_cheney2004]

41 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Trudeau and the Liberals (and Conservatives) have tried to hold the liberal democratic line in Canada and have done so relatively well until recently.  Trump has taken America in the Chinese and Russian direction of authoritarian capitalism.  While the US version is still the best of the three, prepare for the pushback against a deregulated, exclusive America by the Green Fascists.  It’s all a result of fears (founded and unfounded) of the Extinction Menace.  The challenge for all democracies going forward is occupying the middle ground between these opposing forces under the threat of extinction. 

 

Facts on the ground say otherwise, as the United States actually reduces GHG emissions better than Canada and other nations with robust deregulation and energy production (e.g. fracking > natural gas).   The Trudeau government was just handed a setback by an appeals court for its carbon tax "Trojan Horse" that is not only authoritarian (unconstitutional), but not very effective either.

There is no threat of extinction...that is just more political hyperbole.

Edited February 25, 2020 by bush_cheney2004

[Yzermandius19]

28 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Canada is being pushed to choose as well. The Green Fascists are making a big push. 

The "Green Fascists" have already taken over Canada, and it will incite a right wing backlash when the bill comes due on their watch and people can't afford to blow money on their boondoggles anymore, until then the "Authoritarian Capitalists" are going nowhere around here. Canada likely won't even be a nation anymore when that backlash comes, or it won't be for much longer after it does.

Edited February 25, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[eyeball]

3 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

I want to see the broken apartheid system end and the Indigenous flourish.  You want to maintain it and take away their job opportunities in the name of saving the planet, the very definition of a colonial attitude.  

Yes you're rubber and I'm glue.  I guess this is why Bloomberg is reporting the end of the era of Big Oil in Canada. The silliness of the things oil industry supporters are resorting to saying is enough to make anyone realize the jig's nearly up.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-02-24/-nail-in-the-coffin-era-of-big-oil-sands-mines-may-be-over

[Shady]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Yes you're rubber and I'm glue.  I guess this is why Bloomberg is reporting the end of the era of Big Oil in Canada. The silliness of the things oil industry supporters are resorting to saying is enough to make anyone realize the jig's nearly up.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-02-24/-nail-in-the-coffin-era-of-big-oil-sands-mines-may-be-over

Once we get a government that doesn't stand in the way of the oil industry, the industry will expand again.  As will jobs, revenue, and incomes.  

[Zeitgeist]

4 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Facts on the ground say otherwise, as the United States actually reduces GHG emissions better than Canada and other nations with robust deregulation and energy production (e.g. fracking > natural gas).   The Trudeau government was just handed a setback by an appeals court for its carbon tax "Trojan Horse" that is not only authoritarian (unconstitutional), but not very effective either.

There is no threat of extinction...that is just more political hyperbole.

The problem with Canada is that there are many Canadas. Regionalism has always been our challenge.  Provinces like BC, Ontario, and Quebec were and are making huge environmental gains.  Emissions dropped substantially in Ontario when coal energy production was ended.  Alberta is a totally different story. Even Northern Ontario is like another country compared to Southern Ontario.

Having a national climate action plan is hard for Canada because there’s no one-size-fits-all approach on many issues. Trudeau and the Feds are being reduced to domestic ciphers, trotted out for the cameras to deliver feel-good pablum as comfort food for public consumption.  It’s easy to win at this game when Trump comes across as brash and amoral and China is sending Muslims to re-education prisons and cracking down on quarantine breakers.  Somehow he has salvaged an island of middle ground, but the waters are rough and the fascists are on the horizon.   

Edited February 25, 2020 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

The problem with Canada is that there are many Canadas.  Regionalism has always been our challenge.  Provinces like BC, Ontario, and Quebec were and are making huge environmental gains.  Emissions dropped substantially in Ontario when coal energy production was ended.  Alberta is a totally different story.  Even northern Ontario is like another country compared to Southern Ontario.

 

Sorry, but OECD rankings don't care about Canada's domestic squabbles.   Canada ratified the Kyoto Protocol and then proceeded to fail miserably at emissions reductions, even compared to the United States, which was not a signatory.   Today, Canada still lags far behind Paris reduction goals, compounded by false eco-bravado and virtue signaling.   The BS is now plain for all to see.

 

Quote

Having a national climate action plan is hard for Canada because there’s no one-size-fits-all approach on many issues.  Trudeau and the Feds are being reduced to domestic ciphers, trotted out for the cameras to deliver feel-good pablum as comfort food for public consumption.  It’s easy to win at this game when Trump comes across as brash and amoral and China is sending Muslims to re-education prisons.  Somehow he has salvaged an island of middle ground, but the waters are rough and the fascists are in the horizon.   

 

But Trudeau has not won at this game or many others at all.   He is now recognized as a failure on many domestic and foreign policy files, regardless of Trump or Xi.    Energy, environment, and reconciliation have collided in spectacular fashion because Trudeau has not only failed on leadership and policy, he refuses to admit that he has done so, doubling down on more of the same.   The Alberta appellate court's carbon tax ruling (and expected SCOC appeal) may be the turning point in stopping the madness for a Canada where nothing gets done anymore.