jacee Posted March 16, 2020 Report Share Posted March 16, 2020 4 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: Well then they’ll have to stop producing solar and wind farms, as those require power offset through fossil fuel use. Probably nuclear is the future, with hydro where possible. Nuclear is expensive and has mixed support from the greens. Both hydro and nuclear require lots of concrete. We are carbon footprints. No, there is no public support for more nuclear. Solar and wind can be offset by hydro. Concrete construction has to change and new developments will happen fast. 7 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: The ancient Jainists understood this. We live at the expense of the universe and each other. We can get over this and try to mitigate in a reasonable way, or we can be neurotic about it and worry ourselves to a quick death. The psychotic response is a form of fascism that runs roughshod over people to achieve revolutionary goals. No thanks. Some fossil fuels are better than others. Conservation is good. Excessive consumption and waste are bad. Yes, conservative thinking and fascism are a threat and need to be constrained and contained so they don't infect people. Slow thinking naysayers are a problem to themselves and others these days, and need to round out their thinking with other perspectives instead of just listening to each other and the anxious voices in their own heads. Fortunately there are many more brilliant and inventive people who can lead and cope with the 'chaos' of the fast and necessary change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted March 16, 2020 Report Share Posted March 16, 2020 (edited) 27 minutes ago, jacee said: No, there is no public support for more nuclear. Solar and wind can be offset by hydro. Concrete construction has to change and new developments will happen fast. Yes, conservative thinking and fascism are a threat and need to be constrained and contained so they don't infect people. Slow thinking naysayers are a problem to themselves and others these days, and need to round out their thinking with other perspectives instead of just listening to each other and the anxious voices in their own heads. Fortunately there are many more brilliant and inventive people who can lead and cope with the 'chaos' of the fast and necessary change. I agree with you until you start denying facts and science. You can’t offset power drops when the sun doesn’t shine or the wind doesn’t blow with hydro if your jurisdiction can’t produce much or any hydro due to lack of watercourses and the right topography. BC, Quebec, and Ontario have a fair amount of hydro, but only Quebec has much surplus to sell. Most of the world doesn’t have anywhere close to Canada’s hydro potential, so what, our few jurisdictions will change the nature of energy production worldwide because of our local geography? You can’t adjust hydro power up and down to meet drops in power demand the way you can with natural gas. Excess hydro power has to go somewhere when unused You can create ways of pumping water into reservoirs as a kind of battery, but again, you need the right geography for this You have a lot of research and learning to do about what is possible. Government spending and regulation only get you so far. Of course you can choke off demand through conservation or more draconian energy restrictions. See how that goes down with the public. Of course we always see a drop in emissions in times of recession. I’m sure a depression would slash emissions, as would a mass cull of the population. Be careful what you wish for. We have enough to worry about with Covid-19. People will always address their immediate needs first ahead of targets and ideology, which are abstract when you’re worrying about how to pay rent and buy groceries. Edited March 16, 2020 by Zeitgeist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted March 16, 2020 Report Share Posted March 16, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, Zeitgeist said: I agree with you until you start denying facts and science. You can’t offset power drops when the sun doesn’t shine or the wind doesn’t blow with hydro if your jurisdiction can’t produce much or any hydro due to lack of watercourses and the right topography. BC, Quebec, and Ontario have a fair amount of hydro, but only Quebec has much surplus to sell. Most of the world doesn’t have anywhere close to Canada’s hydro potential, so what, our few jurisdictions will change the nature of energy production worldwide because of our local geography? You can’t adjust hydro power up and down to meet drops in power demand the way you can with natural gas. Excess hydro power has to go somewhere when unused You can create ways of pumping water into reservoirs as a kind of battery, but again, you need the right geography for this You have a lot of research and learning to do about what is possible. Government spending and regulation only get you so far. Of course you can choke off demand through conservation or more draconian energy restrictions. See how that goes down with the public. Of course we always see a drop in emissions in times of recession. I’m sure a depression would slash emissions, as would a mass cull of the population. Be careful what you wish for. We have enough to worry about with Covid-19. People will always address their immediate needs first ahead of targets and ideology, which are abstract when you’re worrying about how to pay rent and buy groceries. Everybody's staying home. Lol Pondering big picture things: We're physically isolated, but socially connected instantly. What does that mean for bricks and mortar business, who btw do NOT want you coming to their shops right now. Shop eat connect pay bills entertain online & delivery to door, At a safe distance, spray that pkg w alcohol. Survive. All while instantly socially business ... connected. Amazing times. STEEP learning curve. Enjoy the ride. Details will work themselves out, via scientific and entrepreneurial minds and investor confidence. Edited March 16, 2020 by jacee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted March 17, 2020 Report Share Posted March 17, 2020 6 hours ago, Zeitgeist said: Some fossil fuels are better than others. Show me ... Upstream, downstream Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted March 17, 2020 Report Share Posted March 17, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, jacee said: Everybody's staying home. Lol Pondering big picture things: We're physically isolated, but socially connected instantly. What does that mean for bricks and mortar business, who btw do NOT want you coming to their shops right now. Shop eat connect pay bills entertain online & delivery to door, At a safe distance, spray that pkg w alcohol. Survive. All while instantly socially business ... connected. Amazing times. STEEP learning curve. Enjoy the ride. Details will work themselves out, via scientific and entrepreneurial minds and investor confidence. There will be a new normal after this, and unfortunately it will mean more time indoors for elderly, because the young won’t except being shut in for long. I just dealt with a few of them who were desperate to see and speak to people. Not even they will accept living life over FaceTime or Zoom. We will have to get back to public life soon. We can live with less growth, less work, and less energy until we can’t. People will demand to live freely, draw on resources, and produce a certain amount of waste. They will set the terms. The need for energy doesn’t disappear. You don’t want decline. What you see unfolding around you right now is what decline looks like. That’s what the shutting down of Canada that the protesters called for looks like. I hope you’re happy. Edited March 17, 2020 by Zeitgeist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted March 17, 2020 Report Share Posted March 17, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said: There will be a new normal after this, and unfortunately it will mean more time indoors for elderly, because the young won’t except being shut in for long. I just dealt with a few of them who were desperate to see and speak to people. Not even they will accept living life over FaceTime or Zoom. We will have to get back to public life soon. We can live with less growth, less work, and less energy until we can’t. People will demand to live freely, draw on resources, and produce a certain amount of waste. They will set the terms. The need for energy doesn’t disappear. You don’t want decline. What you see unfolding around you right now is what decline looks like. That’s what the shutting down of Canada that the protesters called for looks like. I hope you’re happy. Interesting, isn't it? Totally unrelated but a strange coincidence. One train track brought the government running to negotiate. Now the government is shutting down the borders itself and likely giving out what amounts to a universal basic income, for people to stay in their homes. A new normal? It's only been a few days. Most of us will survive. And it's nothing to do with this thread. : - / Edited March 17, 2020 by jacee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted March 17, 2020 Report Share Posted March 17, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, jacee said: Interesting, isn't it? Totally unrelated but a strange coincidence. One train track brought the government running to negotiate. Now the government is shutting down the borders itself and likely giving out what amounts to a universal basic income, for people to stay in their homes. A new normal? It's only been a few days. Most of us will survive. The basis of money is production of a product or service. No production = no money. Even if the money is printed and given away and somehow doesn’t deflate in value, it’s of no use if there’s nothing to buy because no one is producing anything. Edited March 17, 2020 by Zeitgeist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted March 17, 2020 Report Share Posted March 17, 2020 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: The basis of money is production of a product or service. No production = no money. Even if the money is printed and given away and somehow doesn’t deflate in value, it’s of no use if there’s nothing to buy because no one is producing anything. Wrong thread. Aren't you talking about the flu? Edited March 17, 2020 by jacee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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