Pipeline protestors need to be jailed

[Zeitgeist]

5 minutes ago, Shady said:

Every dollar that these illegal protests cost taxpayers needs to be subtracted from any funds First Nations groups receive from the federal and provincial governments.  These costs need to be downloaded on to them, so that they realize there’s a price to pay.

Yeah but then everyone is getting painted with the same brush.  I think the consensus, hopefully, is that these blockades were a mistake, law enforcement has to remove them and it will, and anyone who tries to turn this into some kind of "colonial" attack on the oppressed is being utterly ridiculous.  I think the majority of Indigenous know this too, so hopefully this is the end of the blockades.  If, however, the minority unelected hereditary chiefs and their supporters ignore the approvals, laws, and will of the people, much more serious measures will have to take place, up to and including new legislation relating shutting of key infrastructure to terrorist crimes against the state, with very high penalties.

[Argus]

10 hours ago, eyeball said:

If he's the one telling you the elected band councils trump the hereditary chiefs then he doesn't know what he's talking about.  He may well be in good company but that doesn't change anything.

Because, as we all know, Indians are primitives, savages, far too dumb to understand things like democracy. They realize that hereditary leadership is the way to go, so that all the decisions are kept in the hands of a narrow aristocracy. No, no, no. This 'democracy' stuff foisted upon a poor, innocent, backward people must be removed as a colonial relic. It gets in the way of their delightfully quaint culture we need to preserve. /s

[Argus]

10 hours ago, jacee said:

How so?

Feet in the street is democracy in action.

Shutting it down is fascism.

Democracy is merely majority votes. So if the majority tells the police to shoot the protesters in the head that's democracy too.

[Argus]

10 hours ago, jacee said:

It's a misleading term. 

Traditional Chiefs is more accurate.

It's a matrilineal system. Chiefs are chosen by Clan Mothers, who actually hold the rights, titles and the power. The Chiefs are spokespeople. 

So democracy is great, but only for white people, right? Natives are too backward and primitive for that kind of stuff?

[Argus]

9 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

You live on the coast and know full well that the coastal tribes like the Haida and Nootka had ocean-going capabilities. That allowed them to develop culture like the Potlatch which allowed them to coordinate annual raiding into the interior....up those darn rivers and sounds....just like the Europeans.

No, no, no. The natives, all of them, were gentle, innocent children who loved flowers and nature. There was never any war, poverty or disease until the evil white people showed up.

[betsy]

3 hours ago, Shady said:

Every dollar that these illegal protests cost taxpayers needs to be subtracted from any funds First Nations groups receive from the federal and provincial governments.  These costs need to be downloaded on to them, so that they realize there’s a price to pay.

Well- said!

[jacee]

7 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Trying to negate the results of elections is not democracy in action, that's the exact opposite.

Excuse me?! 

No one 'negated' election results.

They just didn't vote for him next time, a huge and unexpected loss due to his fascist attempts to use police violence against dissenting voters. 

Democracy in action, people pushing back against fascism, voting with their feet and at the ballot box.

[jacee]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

Democracy is merely majority votes. So if the majority tells the police to shoot the protesters in the head that's democracy too.

Your propensity to incite others to violence is noted. 

[jacee]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

So democracy is great, but only for white people, right? Natives are too backward and primitive for that kind of stuff?

Democracy by consensus is the model used in traditional Indigenous societies. 

Representative democracy is a less robust model. 

[DogOnPorch]

2 hours ago, Argus said:

No, no, no. The natives, all of them, were gentle, innocent children who loved flowers and nature. There was never any war, poverty or disease until the evil white people showed up.

 

Bruce McKelvie...journalist & BC historian is a good source for the story of life in pioneer BC as opposed to the fanciful modern view. It was a rough ride at times...like with any history. But nothing if not colourful and action packed. The Pageant of British Columbia is probably his most read work. But he had some Farley Mowat-like fiction stories, as well. Pelts and Powder, for example.

https://gutenberg.ca/ebooks/mckelvieba-pageantofbc/mckelvieba-pageantofbc-00-h-dir/mckelvieba-pageantofbc-00-h.html

Pauline Johnson would be another reliable source who wrote prolifically about her region. Legends of Vancouver is a collection of some of her various newspaper work.

https://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/johnson/vancouver/vancouver.html

Edited February 24, 2020 by DogOnPorch

[taxme]

4 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Yeah but then everyone is getting painted with the same brush.  I think the consensus, hopefully, is that these blockades were a mistake, law enforcement has to remove them and it will, and anyone who tries to turn this into some kind of "colonial" attack on the oppressed is being utterly ridiculous.  I think the majority of Indigenous know this too, so hopefully this is the end of the blockades.  If, however, the minority unelected hereditary chiefs and their supporters ignore the approvals, laws, and will of the people, much more serious measures will have to take place, up to and including new legislation relating shutting of key infrastructure to terrorist crimes against the state, with very high penalties.

Well, I just heard on the news this morning that a company called Teck here in BC has just cancelled out on a $20 billion project. Again, this appears to be the result of a bunch of whiny native Indian and eco-terrorist minorities that have halted the possibility of thousands of new jobs in the oil sector being created. Why do these few trouble making terrorists minorities get to shut huge projects down, and get away with stopping the movement of good and services and people from going about their business. While Canada still buys it's oil from the Middles East, we now want to stop all oil being produced in Canada. What the hell is going on in this f'n country? Do we want jobs or not?  

It is not hard to see that our politicians, especially those liberals, are well on their way to the de-industrializing of Canada's industries. It seems that all we get these days as a result of our present day immigration policy are just more new ethnic restaurants who pretty much hire their own people. They will never create thousands of new pipeline jobs. 

57 minutes ago, jacee said:

Excuse me?! 

No one 'negated' election results.

They just didn't vote for him next time, a huge and unexpected loss due to his fascist attempts to use police violence against dissenting voters. 

Democracy in action, people pushing back against fascism, voting with their feet and at the ballot box.

Well spoken like a true NDP greenie socialist. Dam the majority, the minority must be heard and obeyed, and be allowed to run and rule and ruin a once great nation and the people that live in it. The only way to stop all of this bs is to put an end to minority rule in this country. If there radical minorities that do not like what is happening , go for it, but just stay out of other people's way from being able to carry on with their every day lives without interference. They have and own their land, they get welfare checks from the taxpayer's every month, and what do they do? Cry about how hard they are being done by? What happened centuries ago is not happening today. This is all just more of their blackmail on their part. The native Indians should all be wealthy as hell, but they squandered all the tax dollars given to them on gawd knows what? Those Indians crying today were not around in those bad old days. Its' over. Get over it. No one group of misfits should be allowed to stop huge projects that could mean thousands of well paying jobs. 

Minorities are being allowed to wreck an economy that is already in trouble, and what does our dear leader want to do about it? Let's sit down and talk some more, and more, and more. while Canada can just burn. Thousands of people are being laid off because of this terrorism and it needs to be put to an end now. Politically correct Scheer is hopeless. He would not do anything about this terrorism. Canada really and truly lacks leaders with bal-s. All we have these days are a bunch of globalists politicians who seems to worry more about the rest of the world than their own dam country. While Canada burns, Trudeau is in some African country trying to get Canada on some seat in the United Nations, one of the biggest joke of an outfit that ever existed. All those buffoons in the UN are nothing more than a bunch of bureaucratic globalists living the good life of we the people suckers. 

[taxme]

On 2/24/2020 at 11:25 AM, jacee said:

Your propensity to incite others to violence is noted. 

The majority is telling our politicians and the police to do something. That is not inciting violence towards anyone. That is asking for democracy to be seen and acted upon. I am pretty sure that there must be thousands of Canadians who are starting to want to see some heads punched and asses kicked. You cannot keep pushing people up against the wall before they begin to want to act some action and fight back. What is going on in Canada today is nothing more than minority mob rule terrorism. Those mobsters are the ones that will soon be promoting violence. It's in their mob nature. We can only blame them for any violence that may be coming down the road, and we can thank our dear leaders for allowing it to happen. Let the police do their job that we the people are paying them to do. Keep the dam peace. Works like hell for me. 

Edited February 26, 2020 by taxme

[Argus]

2 hours ago, jacee said:

Your propensity to incite others to violence is noted. 

Your ignorance about the very basics of democracy is too.

[Argus]

2 hours ago, jacee said:

Democracy by consensus is the model used in traditional Indigenous societies. 

Representative democracy is a less robust model. 

So you're saying yes. The natives are too backward for democracy. I hadn't realized you were a white supremacist.

 

[mowich]

14 hours ago, jacee said:

It's a misleading term. 

Traditional Chiefs is more accurate.

It's a matrilineal system. Chiefs are chosen by Clan Mothers, who actually hold the rights, titles and the power. The Chiefs are spokespeople. 

Ah..........so it was clan mothers who took away hereditary titles from the Wet'suwet'en women now in court to fight that decision.  Good to know.

[mowich]

21 hours ago, eyeball said:

Yeah well go tell it to past human rights activists and others who are responsible for the sense that civil disobedience is the correct way to change the course of intransigent governments who refuse to change with the times.

Let me guess you don't have the slightest clue what I meant by that do you?

Anyways I'm pretty certain the lawmakers who sent troops storming thru Tiananmen Square felt exactly as you do.  So whose side were you on when that happened anyway and more to the point why?  

It is a far cry from civil disobedience to illegally blockading rail lines but I doubt you are able to understand the difference.  Sad that.

[mowich]

15 hours ago, eyeball said:

The same reason we elect municipal representatives and leaders.

No. I'm in favour of hereditary leaders who bring a tradition of looking at issues thru a lens that takes a longer view than the shorter scope a municipal politician might bring to bear on issues.  

Oh puhlease.  You are in favor of a bunch of old men nearing the end of their lives who are condemning all the younger generations present and in the future to a continued life of poverty, poor education, poor health facilities and all the other benefits that would come from the Coastal Gaslink line.  FYI, those so-called hereditary chiefs were given years - years to come forward with there concerns.  Instead they sat on their asses until long after negotiations were finished and the bands along the line had signed agreements with the company. Then they went to Coastal Gaslink demanding a new route.  Coastal Gaslink told them that the route change they were demanding was more environmentally sensitive than the proposed route.  Got that eyeball - more environmentally sensitive.

In addition, it would cost billions more and would financially impact the bands signed on to the project.

[mowich]

2 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Bruce McKelvie...journalist & BC historian is a good source for the story of life in pioneer BC as opposed to the fanciful modern view. It was a rough ride at times...like with any history. But nothing if not colourful and action packed. The Pageant of British Columbia is probably his most read work. But he had some Farley Mowat-like fiction stories, as well. Pelts and Powder, for example.

https://gutenberg.ca/ebooks/mckelvieba-pageantofbc/mckelvieba-pageantofbc-00-h-dir/mckelvieba-pageantofbc-00-h.html

Pauline Johnson would be another reliable source who wrote prolifically about her region. Legends of Vancouver is a collection of some of her various newspaper work.

https://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/johnson/vancouver/vancouver.html

Thank you so much for all the facts you have and are presenting, DogOnPorch.  I also thank you for the links. 

Edited February 24, 2020 by mowich
correct previous posters name

[mowich]

30 minutes ago, Argus said:

Your ignorance about the very basics of democracy is too.

True that, Argus.  So very very true.

[mowich]

On 2/23/2020 at 8:44 AM, Zeitgeist said:

We need a new form of Clarity Act to define those parameters. Those bands are NOT independent.  If you can’t pay for your own services, you’re not independent.  What’s more, there are tremendous demands for more representation, money, and services, yet there’s no taxation of reservation land or income to pay for any of it.  Title, where warranted, is fine, but that’s not the same thing as independence.  The term “nation to nation” when we talk about negotiations is misleading.  These bands are not of equal stature to the country of Canada for many important reasons. It’s disingenuous to pretend otherwise. It should not be otherwise. No representation without taxation. No political independence without financial independence.  

However, I don’t propose stripping funding of Indigenous Affaires.  It would have to be scaled back over time.  Same goes for implementation of taxation.  That should happen incrementally until eventually the taxation roughly pays for the services, as in the rest of the country.  That’s ownership and responsibility.  That’s the end of two-tier citizenship.  I also think Canada should restore clean water on the desperate reserves. Children deserve clean water and safe housing.  Health care and education are already covered by the Canadian federal government.

Top marks for an excellent post, Zeitgeist. 

[mowich]

On 2/22/2020 at 2:11 PM, eyeball said:

UNDRIP is enshrined in BC.

You could cut BC loose....please and thanks.

It is but that is not what you were implying now is it?  You were implying that it had been enshrined by the Feds which is most certainly not the case and if these illegal blockades continue you can be darn sure that it will pushed even farther off the liberal agenda as it should.  With any hope, it will die on the order table.

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, mowich said:

You are in favor of a bunch of old men nearing the end of their lives

Again, you're full of crap, as I've already said that's not what I'm in favour of at all.

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, mowich said:

It is but that is not what you were implying now is it?  You were implying that it had been enshrined by the Feds 

I most certainly did not.  Why are you so full of shit all the time?  

[betsy]

PEACEFUL PROTEST?  

How can the blockades be said to be peaceful when they've hurt so many Canadians!  How many Canadians have been laid off?  How many businesses had suffered losses?

 

Just because there were no physical violence does not necessarily mean they are peaceful!   Those blockades were meant to hurt!

[Moonlight Graham]

18 hours ago, eyeball said:

I think as far as they're concerned they made it years ago but Canada's governments don't want to get with the program - that's why they say reconciliation is dead and to start the process again they want the government, the police in other words, off their lands.

I own the land I live on, but it doesn't give me the right to ban federal police from coming on my land.  Unceded native land is their land but it's still within Canada, they don't live in their own sovereign country with their own laws, so why should they have any right to tell RCMP where to go?  It's ridiculous.

Aboriginals use the victim card to ignore the government actions they dislike, and also use the victim card to demand government action they like.  Some of them want to kick RCMP off their land but also want free healthcare etc and blame the government when they don't have clean drinking water.  This is Canada, you're either in or you're out.  You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Their elected councils have all agreed to the gasline, so clearly these protestors don't even speak for all the natives. Who speaks for these natives? Have the elected band councils ordered the RCMP off the land?