What to do about China

[Argus]

Just now, DogOnPorch said:

 

Yes, I'm aware you hate Trump with a red-hot passion. 

Go Joe...

I accept your surrender.?

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, Argus said:

I accept your surrender.?

 

Oh, that'll be the day.

You and I...so close yet so far...

[Argus]

7 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Oh, that'll be the day.

You and I...so close yet so far...

We will never agree on Trump. I don't care that he's politically incorrect. I care that all the signs point to him being in Putin's pocket. I care that he has demonstrated utter incompetence in terms of national security issues, and in his preferring to trust Russia or FOX instead of his own intelligence services. He hasn't, btw, getting back on topic, done anything much about China either. His attentions have all been on trade. China, meanwhile, continues to hack into every computer the US government owns and send over hundreds if not thousands of spies to penetrate every institution of government. It controls American educational institutions, insofar as what they say and teach about China, by threatening to withdraw its students. It's controlling not just American entertainment (and news) companies but the conglomerates behind them by forcing them to self-censor about anything related to China.

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, Argus said:

We will never agree on Trump. I don't care that he's politically incorrect. I care that all the signs point to him being in Putin's pocket. I care that he has demonstrated utter incompetence in terms of national security issues, and in his preferring to trust Russia or FOX instead of his own intelligence services. He hasn't, btw, getting back on topic, done anything much about China either. His attentions have all been on trade. China, meanwhile, continues to hack into every computer the US government owns and send over hundreds if not thousands of spies to penetrate every institution of government. It controls American educational institutions, insofar as what they say and teach about China, by threatening to withdraw its students. It's controlling not just American entertainment (and news) companies but the conglomerates behind them by forcing them to self-censor about anything related to China.

 

There may not be much difference

Between White House and Hall of People

If we count their windows.

---Yoko Ono

[ironstone]

China would be funneling money to every side wouldn't they? They do want to cover all the bases.I do think it's very clear they would prefer to have Biden(soon to be replaced by Harris) in the White House.

[DogOnPorch]

5 minutes ago, ironstone said:

China would be funneling money to every side wouldn't they? They do want to cover all the bases.I do think it's very clear they would prefer to have Biden(soon to be replaced by Harris) in the White House.

 

Red China hates Trump for fairly obvious reasons.

[DogOnPorch]

Of course, the ultimate conspiracy theory in this regards is Red China in cahoots with the Democrats of America knowingly released a virus manufactured by the Chinese military on an unsuspecting world population...well...because orange man bad.

Nothing else worked...

Edited September 24, 2020 by DogOnPorch

[OftenWrong]

7 hours ago, Argus said:

China, meanwhile, continues to hack into every computer the US government owns and send over hundreds if not thousands of spies to penetrate every institution of government.

I cant see Trump wanting any of that to continue. US banned Huawei, Trump deserves some credit for that. 

Re Chinese students and researchers- A big problem worldwide. Canada like most countries is rampant with technology theft but we do nothing. At least Trump gives that issue a voice. Hes the only one whos willing to put a stop to the mad leftist machine before it takes us all over a cliff along with it.

Whatever it is you dont like about him, you need to put that aside and be more practical.

After all, this is politics.

Timely news. 

Link

 

[OftenWrong]

From that same article:

Wolf said the US was also “preventing goods produced from slave labour from entering our markets, demanding that China respect the inherent dignity of each human being” 

His attention is all on trade, as you criticized. But it is not just about making the most money, as you can see right here. You expect China to listen to something else? 

Maybe a few virtue- signalling tweets ala Justin? 

Or maybe yell at them, thats it. A good scolding will work.

[DogOnPorch]

6 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

From that same article:

 

 

Another article re: Vietnamese support has some interesting imagery....

That would be the flag of the once free country of South Viet-Nam...abandoned by the Democrats and then invaded by the Communists and eliminated...the ancient city of Saigon renamed to reflect the Left's cult of personality.

[Argus]

Gary Mason comes around to what I've been saying for years. We need to kick China's confucius institutes out of Canada.

In its 2019 annual report, the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians documented an array of efforts by foreign powers to exert a corrosive influence over other countries, including this one.

To little surprise, the People’s Republic of China was identified as one of the worst offenders.

The report drew particular attention to a PRC law that directs all Chinese entities and individuals to contribute to state security and co-operate with intelligence services. The edict, the document noted, extends to Chinese groups and individuals operating outside the country.

It’s an all-encompassing doctrine fundamental to the country’s approach to statecraft, one rooted in the belief that there are two ways to gain power and influence over others: weapons, and language and culture.

Which brings us to the Confucius Institute.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-its-time-to-kick-the-confucius-institute-out-of-canada/

[Argus]

Canada is a pushover for the Chinese, who easily intimidate our government.

This intimidation from Beijing matches Chinese Ambassador to Canada’s Cong Peiwu’s veiled threat to the “health and safety” of 300,000 Canadians in Hong Kong if Canada offers safe harbour to democracy advocates trapped in Hong Kong under threat of political persecution. Despite being given an opportunity to walk back his remarks, Cong stood firm. It begs the question: Exactly what does a Chinese ambassador have to do to be declared persona non grata in Canada? Threats to the safety of Canadians by any other nation’s ambassador would have them turfed within 48 hours. Cong was instead called in to Global Affairs Canada for a chat requesting that he play nicer in future.

Of course, the People’s Republic of China would expel Canadian Ambassador Dominic Barton in retaliation, but that might not be such a bad thing. The Chinese evidently see him as a pushover, and don’t return his calls. While Ambassador Cong is all over the Canadian media with interviews and webinars, our man in Beijing is a non-person.

At an event last week in China, Barton’s friends in the Canada-China Business Council enthusiastically applauded the Chinese vice-minister of commerce’s call for the release of Huawei’s Meng, but sat in silence at any mention of the Canadian hostages. Moreover, judging by his appearance at the Commons Special Committee on Canada-China Relations, Barton’s grasp of the non-business aspects of Canada’s interaction with the PRC is hazy, and disturbing.

https://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/burton-as-chinas-global-actions-worsen-canada-looks-at-its-feet

[Argus]

I have had my doubts about O'Toole on a number of other policies, but on China he certainly seems to be stepping hard on a need to distance ourselves from them, to pull back industry from there and go our own way as much as possible. I particularly liked this part:

“We made a mistake in allowing ourselves to de-industrialize totally,” O’Toole said. “Thirty years ago, the Western world’s political, financial and business elite made a bet: we would allow China to have unfair access to our market while they protected their own… Once it became a rich and prosperous country, we hoped it would turn into a good actor, would democratize, take human rights seriously, liberalize, and play by global rules. We all know that this has not happened.”

O’Toole went on to describe China as “state-owned juggernauts, Orwellian surveillance technology, cyber-theft on an industrial scale, hostage diplomacy, and increasing human rights abuses within its borders, and increasingly within its wider sphere of influence.”

And this:

“So, I will say this: when the most efficient outcome does not align with our national interest, a Conservative government will ensure that the national interest comes first,” he said. “Free markets alone won’t solve all our problems.”

O’Toole concluded by saying that GDP growth is not the “be-all and end-all of politics.”

https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/otoole-calls-for-better-conditions-for-workers-slams-outsourcing-to-china-in-speech

 

[Argus]

While the West reels with the coronavirus it is unable to control due to the ignorance of their people and the incompetence of their leaders, China forges ahead to increase its economic dominance. It has just signed the world's biggest free trade agreement, giving its goods access to fifteen countries in Asia.

Fifteen Asia-Pacific countries on Sunday signed the world's biggest free trade deal, seen as a huge coup for China in extending its influence.

The Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP) includes 10 Southeast Asian economies along with China, Japan, South Korea, New Zealand and Australia, with members accounting for around 30 percent of global GDP.

First proposed in 2012, the deal was finally sealed at the end of a Southeast Asian summit as leaders push to get their pandemic-hit economies back on track.

https://news.yahoo.com/huge-asian-trade-pact-signed-002503549.html

[cannuck]

I/we were in China from the mid-90s and one of our frequent discussions was how the West saw the light at the end of the "normalization" tunnel.  Such discussions always ended with the comment that that light was a very large, very fast train that would flatten the West if we didn't get a grasp on reality early on.

[Michael Hardner]

10 minutes ago, cannuck said:

I/we were in China from the mid-90s and one of our frequent discussions was how the West saw the light at the end of the "normalization" tunnel.  Such discussions always ended with the comment that that light was a very large, very fast train that would flatten the West if we didn't get a grasp on reality early on.

This seems to imply zero-sum.  We always wanted China to join the global economy and still do.

[Moonlight Graham]

21 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

This seems to imply zero-sum.  We always wanted China to join the global economy and still do.

We've tried that, they have made it clear they don't want to follow any rules except the ones that benefit them.  They're the ones that have made this zero-sum.

[Moonlight Graham]

If it were up to me I would do 5 things regarding China:

1.  Create an organization consisting of all the world's legitimate democracies

2.  Create a consensus within this organization to remove all business with China.

3.  Expropriate all China-owned assets within Canada.

4.  Ban 100% of immigration from China and immediately deport all non-citizens back to China.

5.  Ban all politicians from communicating with any foreign national from China unless it's on public record.

Edited November 16, 2020 by Moonlight Graham

[Michael Hardner]

15 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

We've tried that, they have made it clear they don't want to follow any rules except the ones that benefit them.  They're the ones that have made this zero-sum.

Do you have some examples ?  Or I guess... all the examples since they didn't follow any ?

[Michael Hardner]

18 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

If it were up to me I would do 5 things regarding China:

1.  Create an organization consisting of all the world's legitimate democracies

2.  Create a consensus within this organization to remove all business with China.

3.  Expropriate all China-owned assets within Canada.

4.  Ban 100% of immigration from China and immediately deport all non-citizens back to China.

5.  Ban all politicians from communicating with any foreign national from China unless it's on public record.

Sounds practical.  Be sure to follow up with Saudi Arabia, Iran, Russia, Thailand etc. afterwards

[OftenWrong]

What to do about China? Elect politicians who would hold them accountable. Not sell us out for the rich globalists.

Oh wait, somebody tried that and they got a whole lot of whining and complaining. Now back to what to do about China.

You people are nuts, whole freaking world. Buncha China-lovers, all of yas

[Argus]

4 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

This seems to imply zero-sum.  We always wanted China to join the global economy and still do.

There was, for some time, a consensus among western leaders that once China saw the benefits of capitalism and their people were able to move freely around the world and see what else was out there that China would quite naturally move away from Communism and towards a western style appreciation of human rights and freedom and would start respecting the international order. That simply has not happened.

Certainly they've gotten rid of most aspects of Communism, but their authoritarianism has only gotten worse, and continues to get worse, year by year. And they're now adding a racial/nationalist element to it which, in their minds, gives them the right to expect Chinese people throughout the world will owe them allegiance, regardless of whether they've ever set foot in China.

They have used their newly empowered budget to improve the economic lives of their people, but also spent vast fortunes modernizing their military, and creating a police state like no other in history, with close electronic and video monitoring of everything its people do and everywhere they go and everything they write or say. They have also shown no more respect for international laws and agencies and codes of conduct than they did twenty five years ago. They continue to ignore virtually all the rules of fair trade and are engaging in predatory economic activities against other countries even the Americans wouldn't have tried back in the fifties and sixties.

Their espionage has escalated, with literally armies of hackers prying into every large or advanced company and government agency throughout the world, as well as huge numbers of spies shipped to the West as both students and immigrants.  One European government report estimated China had something like 300 spies on the ground in Brussels alone.

So yeah, joining the global economy was good for China and very bad for the rest of us. Time to rethink that.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

What to do about China? Elect politicians who would hold them accountable. Not sell us out for the rich globalists.

Oh wait, somebody tried that and they got a whole lot of whining and complaining. Now back to what to do about China.

You people are nuts, whole freaking world. Buncha China-lovers, all of yas

You need to get it through your head that Donald Trump never gave a damn about China. He used it as a sales tool, much like his professed and newly discovered love of Jesus and similarly newly discovered dislike of abortion. China grew stronger under his term, not weaker, richer, not poorer. It expanded its influence around the world without challenge from the US. Its trade surplus with the US grew larger, not smaller. Nothing he did hindered China. Nor was it intended to. It was merely a PR exercise to convince the suckers in middle America that he was working on their behalf.

[bush_cheney2004]

28 minutes ago, Argus said:

You need to get it through your head that Donald Trump never gave a damn about China....

 

He gave more of a damn than the leadership in Canada, which is what this thread is about.  Transshipments, IP theft, dumping, tariffs, and Huawei were engaged by Trump, and Canada had to react to the changing landscape for globalism.

So it is back to what Canada should do about China really means what Canada wants America to do about China and protect the "post WW2 order", because Canada sure as hell can't/won't do so.  

Maybe Biden will make Canada happy...but I doubt it.

[OftenWrong]

50 minutes ago, Argus said:

You need to get it through your head that Donald Trump never gave a damn about China. He used it as a sales tool, much like his professed and newly discovered love of Jesus and similarly newly discovered dislike of abortion. China grew stronger under his term, not weaker, richer, not poorer. It expanded its influence around the world without challenge from the US. Its trade surplus with the US grew larger, not smaller. Nothing he did hindered China. Nor was it intended to. It was merely a PR exercise to convince the suckers in middle America that he was working on their behalf.

Is that why the Yuan went up to higher value than it's been in the past 28 months, after Biden's victory? Why was it so low then, for the past 28 months?

Link

Biden comes along, China is giving a big thumbs up! So happy China.

Edited November 16, 2020 by OftenWrong