What to do about China

[Argus]

The Chinese government have bought off a Chinese-Canadian RCMP officer who was heavily involved in the Meng Wanzhou. He quit and has moved back to China to work for a casino there and is refusing to testify.

Consequences he faces in Canada: zero.

The Canadian government would be horrified at the very idea we punish him or remove his citizenship. He's just as Canadian as you or I!

A former RCMP officer, who has refused to testify at the Vancouver extradition hearing of the chief financial officer of Huawei Technologies Co. Ltd., is now working as a senior security executive at a casino in the Chinese-ruled gambling mecca of Macau.

Retired staff sergeant Ben Chang played an essential role in the detention of Meng Wanzhou on Dec. 1, 2018, including e-mail exchanges with the U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation about electronic devices seized from her during the arrest at Vancouver International Airport.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-ex-mountie-refusing-to-testify-in-huawei-extradition-hearing-is/

[Argus]

China is getting more and more authoritarian, tolerating dissent even less than in previous years. And it now intends to silence dissent abroad too, bullying and threatening countries around the world and locking up their citizens in secret prisons where they are subjected to solitary confinement and 6 hour long interrogations each night.

Three new developments – all related to the Michaels, and Canada – have aligned.

First, China’s use of the RSDL system to disappear rather than detain has exploded, from a few hundred victims the first year to, soon, 10,000 victims annually, according to an analysis of Chinese court data, exposed for the first time in another recent Safeguard Defenders report.

Second, foreign citizens are being targeted at an accelerated rate as tools of Chinese foreign policy, and Canada is far from the only victim. At the time of writing, Australia is the key target, but Americans, British, Swedish, Japanese, Turkish and even Belizean citizens have been taken, many of them into RSDL.

In other cases, already-detained citizens, such as Canadian Robert Schellenberg, have had their existing sentences revised – in his case to the death penalty. Australia, which like Canada was foolish enough to entertain agreeing to an extradition treaty with China, was told that its citizens were more likely to face harsher sentencing and death penalties if it didn’t ratify the agreement.

Finally, and what the Canadian government has seemingly failed to realize, is that while the beginning of this rapid deterioration of relations with China may indeed, as China claims, be because of the detention of Huawei’s CFO pending an extradition process, if it were not that, there would be another reason. China will find any reason it sees fit to initiate a diplomatic stand-off.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/columnists/dahlin-holding-canadas-two-michaels-is-part-of-chinas-larger-strategy/wcm/c7e0bb6f-da83-4b87-9440-2e5964d254d0

[-TSS-]

I guess you in Canada are in the right place to tell us the rest of the world who are going on about Putin this or Putin that that Putin is like a little boy when it comes to influence over the world affairs when compared to Xi.

[Argus]

39 minutes ago, -TSS- said:

I guess you in Canada are in the right place to tell us the rest of the world who are going on about Putin this or Putin that that Putin is like a little boy when it comes to influence over the world affairs when compared to Xi.

Well, that would be in a topic about Russia, wouldn't it?

I don't think Putin is a little boy. And I don't pretend my knowledge of the dangers he represents are greater than, say, Sweden, which recently brought back the draft, is rapidly increasing its military spending and also opening up bomb shelters once again. I suspect the Swedes think Putin isn't a little boy at all.

[Argus]

An example of how China tries to gain influence over politicians in other countries, starting with local people they believe have promise to work their way higher on the food chain. I have no doubt they're doing this in Canada, too. I do have doubts about how strong our defenses against this are. Or, especially, how much attention our governments would pay to a similar warning by our intelligence agencies. I recall the Ontario Liberal government was warned by CSIS about someone years back being influenced by China and they simply dismissed the warning.

A suspected Chinese intelligence operative developed extensive ties with local and national politicians, including a U.S. congressman, in what U.S. officials believe was a political intelligence operation run by China’s main civilian spy agency between 2011 and 2015, Axios found in a yearlong investigation.

The case demonstrates China’s strategy of cultivating relationships that may take years or even decades to bear fruit. The Chinese Communist Party knows that today’s mayors and city council members are tomorrow’s governors and members of Congress.

https://www.axios.com/china-spy-california-politicians-9d2dfb99-f839-4e00-8bd8-59dec0daf589.html

[Argus]

It seems Trudeau invited China to send troops to Canada to participate in winter exercises with the Canadian military. Given China is basically the closest we have to the enemy that seems idiotic, but quite in keeping with the sycophantic attitude Trudeau and the Liberal Party has shown towards China. General Vance cancelled it, which, according to some stories, infuriated Trudeau.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-global-affairs-objected-to-canadian-military-decision-to-cancel/?cmpid=rss&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

[Argus]

A reasonably well-articulated description of the Liberal government's spineless failings with regard to dealing with China, and their continuing wistfulness for a China which does not and never has existed.

The moment a supposedly benevolent power snatches up two foreigners and inhumanely locks them away in an act of diplomatic retaliation, it ceases to be a benevolent power.

It was a lesson the Canadian government ought to have learned the day Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig were arbitrarily detained in China following the arrest of Huawei CFO Meng Wanzhou at Vancouver’s airport in December, 2018.

China was not a beacon of freedom and goodwill before it decided to engage in hostage diplomacy. Its domestic human rights abuses, clampdown on communications and free speech, aggression in the South China Sea and flouting of World Trade Organization rules (the list goes on) should have extinguished any notion that China of the 21st century was headed on the path toward greater liberalism, rather than sliding back into authoritarianism and repression.

But the effective kidnapping of two Canadians should have been a red line for Canadian engagement with China, extinguishing whatever lingering notion this government might have had about normal diplomatic relations with Beijing. China was – and is – a hostile power, yet for the past two years, Canada has resisted treating it as such.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-canada-is-trying-to-engage-with-a-benevolent-china-that-doesnt-exist/

[Argus]

The Liberals fired our last ambassador to China because he seemed to think he was China's ambassador to Canada. It seems the replacement has a similar mindset. Liberals sure do love China, no matter what it says or does to us.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-canadas-envoy-to-china-draws-attention-of-us-senate-intelligence/

[Queenmandy85]

On 12/9/2020 at 8:54 PM, Argus said:

It seems Trudeau invited China to send troops to Canada to participate in winter exercises with the Canadian military

Apparently it was Harper who signed the agreement in 2013.

[Michael Hardner]

15 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Apparently it was Harper who signed the agreement in 2013.

Why wouldn't this have been pointed out in the original story ?

It would certainly bring some journalistic disrepute to... [checks notes] ...The Rebel...

oh nevermind

[Argus]

1 hour ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Apparently it was Harper who signed the agreement in 2013.

I know he signed a trade agreement with them, to his discredit, but I hadn't heard of any sort of defense pact. Do you have a cite?

I do clearly remember that for the first couple of years of his time in office all the opposition and all the media and big business were constantly haranguing him for him not being nice enough to China and expressing distrust towards them. He gave in after the recession hit - again, to his discredit, I think.

 

[Queenmandy85]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

Do you have a cite?

Defence Minister Sajjan in QP, although I got that 2nd hand. 

I agree that, regardless, it is a bad idea.

[Argus]

The US is investigating the pro-China and pro-dictatorship behavior of a company which was run by our ambassador to China. That's not a good look for us, and not helpful in arranging a deal with the US on china and the extradition of their crooked princess.

As the former global managing director of consulting juggernaut McKinsey & Co., Mr. Barton had spent years forging relationships with Chinese officials while the firm he ran helped the country’s state-owned companies expand their influence abroad. The self-described “bull on China” had even mused that he had “probably drank the Kool-Aid” of President Xi Jinping’s Communist government and its relentless promotion of China’s rise to great-power status.

The appointment of Mr. Barton was emblematic of Justin Trudeau’s wide-eyed willingness to see the best in China’s authoritarian leaders and an affection for Communists that he appears to have inherited from his father. Besides, if anyone could fix the damage Ms. Meng’s arrest had caused to the Canada-China relationship, it was supposed to have been Mr. Barton.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-canadas-man-in-beijing-is-becoming-an-albatross/

[Army Guy]

On 12/11/2020 at 4:58 PM, Queenmandy85 said:

Apparently it was Harper who signed the agreement in 2013.

Not saying it is not true, but since when did our government plan anything with that much lead time, with a known threat.... and someone would have had to say hey its 2020 remember that winter exercise we planed in 2013 , well it's almost time ... it would still require government approval today, i mean things really do change in 7 years, Sajin would have to have known, the CDS does work for him... 

[Michael Hardner]

11 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Not saying it is not true, but since when did our government plan anything with that much lead time, with a known threat.... and someone would have had to say hey its 2020 remember that winter exercise we planed in 2013 , well it's almost time ... it would still require government approval today, i mean things really do change in 7 years, Sajin would have to have known, the CDS does work for him... 

Big organizations have longer planning timelines.

[Army Guy]

I find that odd, because it would have been a small scale exercise, that a few officers and SNRNCO's could have planed over a couple of beers and maybe a pizza..., it would have taken longer to plan the media event... That and DND rarely plans that far out...

Edited December 17, 2020 by Army Guy

[Michael Hardner]

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/65043135/the-ottawa-citizen/?fbclid=IwAR3EzVZL17HbuvxIROSQO0ig3aOxbd0CvVuer6PWTIXVScRaZkFvYlmXKpw

Here it is...

"Tories working to build trust with Asian power, defence minister says"

 

Now I wasn't a fan of Harper.  I didn't think he was evil, of course, because he wasn't.  He had a vision for Canada that I didn't share but I felt he was working for my interests and those of all Canadians, albeit in a way I didn't agree with.

 

My reaction when I see a story like that is... "hmmm.  That's strange.  I wonder why they're doing that.  There must be some advantage that I don't understand, because I don't have a career as a military strategist"

 

Now... fast forward seven years, make it Trudeau and the reaction from some is "I HATE HIM.  HE IS AN IDIOT.  HE IS DOING THIS TO DESTROY CANADA"

 

This is what politics is today.  People are making it personal, and can't imagine those at the highest levels and business and government doing things different from how they do, ie. in a pluralistic framework, for complex and unknown reasons etc. etc.

 

The answer is for us to explain to our cohorts that Trudeau, Scheer, Singh, all of them are not like us, but they're not necessarily evil.  And we as citizens don't know everything - we have to put our trust in them, that's just how it works.

[Michael Hardner]

I think this is more from that announcement...
 

Quote

The CAF is involved in a number of regional exercises that support multilateral defence relations. For example, the Royal Canadian Navy (RCN) continues to be engaged in a number of military exercises and deployments throughout the Asia-Pacific region. These cooperative endeavours serve to foster invaluable relationships and connections between the RCN and the navies of other countries in the region. For example, More than 1,000 Canadian sailors, soldiers, airmen and airwomen will participate in Rim of the Pacific (RIMPAC), the world’s premier combined and joint maritime exercise, from June 27 to August 1, 2014, in the vicinity of the Hawaiian Islands and Southern California. RIMPAC is the world’s largest international maritime military exercise, involving forces from Australia, Brunei, Canada, Chile, Colombia, France, India, Indonesia, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, People’s Republic of China, Peru, the Republic of Korea, the Republic of the Philippines, Singapore, Thailand, Tonga, the United Kingdom and the United States. Canada has participated in every iteration since RIMPAC’s inception in 1971.

https://www.canada.ca/en/news/archive/2014/06/canada-defence-relations-asia-pacific-region.html?fbclid=IwAR1OG5si_1V1XGnp1OdvIEkZaOoHOVjSv_nxVVM3CiZRnWiH4b8qe1q7iPA

[Nefarious Banana]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

"Tories working to build trust with Asian power, defence minister says"

Now I wasn't a fan of Harper.  I didn't think he was evil, of course, because he wasn't.  He had a vision for Canada that I didn't share but I felt he was working for my interests and those of all Canadians, albeit in a way I didn't agree with.

My reaction when I see a story like that is... "hmmm.  That's strange.  I wonder why they're doing that.  There must be some advantage that I don't understand, because I don't have a career as a military strategist"

Now... fast forward seven years, make it Trudeau and the reaction from some is "I HATE HIM.  HE IS AN IDIOT.  HE IS DOING THIS TO DESTROY CANADA"

This is what politics is today.  People are making it personal, and can't imagine those at the highest levels and business and government doing things different from how they do, ie. in a pluralistic framework, for complex and unknown reasons etc. etc.

The answer is for us to explain to our cohorts that Trudeau, Scheer, Singh, all of them are not like us, but they're not necessarily evil.  And we as citizens don't know everything - we have to put our trust in them, that's just how it works.

Your above post must be the longest in your history . . . 

Pearson, Mulroney, Chretien, Harper . . . . some of many.  I may have disagreed with their policies or vision, but at the end of the day or the end of their term, there was the satisfaction that they'd had the best interests of Canada at heart.  That their vision of Canada was to bring as much unity as possible for the good of all citizens, and the country was relatively undamaged by their term at the helm.

Do you feel this way now/anymore/ever with the present Federal Govt.?  Do you think that the morale (pre-Covid) of the Canadian citizen has been damaged by inept Federal leaders?  That Canada can ever have a sense of unity again?

[Michael Hardner]

2 minutes ago, Nefarious Banana said:

Do you feel this way now/anymore/ever with the present Federal Govt.?  Do you think that the morale (pre-Covid) of the Canadian citizen has been damaged by inept Federal leaders?  That Canada can ever have a sense of unity again?

Based on handling of a pandemic, the likes of which we haven't seen in 100 years ?  I have no way to evaluate the performance on anything but a broad assessment.  Both my premier (Ford) and my PM (Trudeau) are being second guessed about this but I can't see either have failed.

As for unity, I don't sense that it's any different than before.  People from the West demonized Chretien too.  I don't think any of the opposition parties have been counter-productive either.

[Moonlight Graham]

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

"Tories working to build trust with Asian power, defence minister says"

Now I wasn't a fan of Harper.  I didn't think he was evil, of course, because he wasn't.  He had a vision for Canada that I didn't share but I felt he was working for my interests and those of all Canadians, albeit in a way I didn't agree with.

My reaction when I see a story like that is... "hmmm.  That's strange.  I wonder why they're doing that.  There must be some advantage that I don't understand, because I don't have a career as a military strategist

Now... fast forward seven years, make it Trudeau and the reaction from some is "I HATE HIM.  HE IS AN IDIOT.  HE IS DOING THIS TO DESTROY CANADA"

The Harper gov wasn't one to be naively idealistic.  But they seem to have been with China.  The whole of the West has tried the "peacefully trade and hope they reform" approach, but it hasn't worked, democracy hasn't spread in China like we hoped.  China wants absolutely nothing other than to increase its power.

China brings a ton of investment into this country, and the Harper Conservatives move to money just like any other party.  Sorry Michael, I don't trust them.

[Petros]

On 10/10/2019 at 3:15 PM, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Please...Canada also has a colonial history in China.

The U.S. has always relied on military and economic power, and Canada has taken advantage of that more than many other nations.

Canada is so "trustworthy", China treats it like a chew toy, not so the United States.

This thread is about what Canada should do about China, not what Canada should do about China by always depending on the United States.

^ This is why America is doomed. They are like entitled children.  America has alienated so many of it's allies, that if they were engaged in a military conflict in the next few years, Europe and Canada would not be as willing to have their backs.

Edited December 18, 2020 by Petros

[bush_cheney2004]

48 minutes ago, Petros said:

^ This is why America is doomed. They are like entitled children.  America has alienated so many of it's allies, that if they were engaged in a military conflict in the new few years, Europe and Canada would not be as willing to have their backs.

 

No worries....Canada doesn't even have its own back.

[Petros]

4 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

No worries....Canada doesn't even have its own back.

Be careful what you say (or wish for). Many Canadians (and others) are tired of bailing out the US in foreign countries, in the aftermath of American intervention, once the locals turn against them.  It's not exactly a secret that pound-for-pound, Canadians are better soldiers.

Edited December 18, 2020 by Petros

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Petros said:

Be careful what you say (or wish for). Many Canadians (and others) are tired of bailing out the US in foreign countries, in the aftermath of American intervention, once the locals turn against them. 

 

No....Canadians have their own biased narrative... same as the Americans.   Bashing the U.S. is great for domestic politics.

Nations states have interests...not friends.   Canada gladly accepts and very much desires American collaboration on many fronts...including COVID-19 vaccine production and logistics.