What to do about China

[Argus]

China is using its money and influence with ethnic Chinese communities in Canada to bribe and coerce politicians into giving it it's way, and to bribe both politicians and 'elites' to take its side according to a new report. When you see people like Jean Chretien and John Manley speaking out on China's behalf that is evidence of how deeply they've penetrated the Liberal Party in particular. It wasn't that long ago we were seeing parades of Chinese-Canadian businessmen laying down tens of thousands of dollars for those lunch appointments with Trudeau, and we know they were telling Trudeau what China wanted them to.

Canada is an “attractive and permissive target” for Chinese interference that endangers the “foundations of our fundamental institutions, including our system of democracy itself,” according to a recent national security review.

The reason, experts suggest, is because China’s Communist Party has won the support of some influential Canadians by using economic carrots and sticks, while public attention on Beijing’s broad campaign is “almost non-existent.” China has used its economic leverage to secure “the voices” of political and business leaders in Canada with “sweetheart business deals” and “various inducements,” including lucrative board positions or honours in China, he said. 

In the 1990s, United Front networks just made passive political donations to all Canadian political parties, Fung said. Now they are aggressively lobbying for Beijing’s policies, covertly offering political funding from Beijing and attempting to promote covert CCP party members for election, Fung claimed.

And Fung said she believes China has successfully influenced “many elected officials.”

https://globalnews.ca/news/7075248/canada-china-interference-permissive-target/?utm_source=GlobalHalifax&utm_medium=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR3SAmdv60S085e87gjjO8uNCWoCG2C5FT_6lEbx0EGg91s-DKKcF5GPdXs

[bush_cheney2004]

Chinese media having more fun with Canada....this time it's lobsters:

 

Quote

Communist Party media in China rebuked and threatened Nova Scotia lobster shippers this week for expressing concerns over new roadblocks to getting products into China.

The party tabloid Global Times says recent border measures are about food safety after a COVID-19 outbreak was linked to a Beijing food market, "rather than an excuse to target any specific country."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/chinese-state-media-global-times-lobster-dispute-canada-1.5626025

[Army Guy]

 Cherie Wong of the Alliance Canada Hong Kong says there are 123 Canadians detained in China, many likely for common crimes, but undoubtedly others for political reasons in a country that brooks little dissent. At what number do we as a nation take action....

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/forgotten-in-a-dark-cruel-place-the-two-michaels-are-not-the-only-canadians-held-as-political-prisoners-by-china/ar-BB16fMjx?ocid=spartan-ntp-feeds

[Argus]

The 'hidden hand' of China aims to gain it control over much of the world, using bribery and threats to get what it wants. And it's working, as China's influence silences criticism from business, universities and countries. It prevents multinational conglomerates (which have operations in China) from printing book, stories, magazines, or allowing characters or stories in television shows or movies which might offend China. It does the same to media companies. Some of which own both newspapers and TV stations but also movie production and distribution companies who want to distribute films in China. And of course, when dealing with a cowardly government like Canada's, it silences all criticism through both intimidation and outright bribery of politicians at all levels.

Every Western democracy is affected. As Beijing is emboldened by the feebleness of resistance, its tactics of coercion and intimidation are being used against an increasingly broad spectrum of people

The comforting belief that democratic freedoms have history on their side and will eventually prevail everywhere has always been tinged with wishful thinking. World events of the past two or three decades have shown that we can no longer take these things for granted. Universal human rights, democratic practice and the rule of law have powerful enemies, and China under the Chinese Communist Party is arguably the most formidable. The party’s program of influence and interference is well planned and bold, and backed by enormous economic resources and technological power. The wide-ranging campaign of subverting institutions in Western countries and winning over their elites has advanced much further than party leaders might have hoped.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/book-excerpt-hidden-hand-how-the-chinese-communist-party-is-reshaping-the-world/wcm/4dac55bd-15f6-48ba-a9fe-fa2d52283431/

[Thinkinoutsidethebox]

The solution is quite simple really, it's the same as the US and any other country that wants to screw with Canada relations. 

What do we import from them? Let's encourage manufacture of these products/services within our own borders, they need us more than we need them. 

[Moonlight Graham]

2 hours ago, Thinkinoutsidethebox said:

The solution is quite simple really, it's the same as the US and any other country that wants to screw with Canada relations. 

What do we import from them? Let's encourage manufacture of these products/services within our own borders, they need us more than we need them. 

You can't do that, it's more expensive to produce products here, and those products won't be able to compete with Chinese-manufactured products.  You have to move manufacturing to another 3rd world country, like India.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

You can't do that, it's more expensive to produce products here, and those products won't be able to compete with Chinese-manufactured products.  You have to move manufacturing to another 3rd world country, like India.

Mexico would be better. More jobs there means less chaos at the US border so we and the US should be encouraging manufacturing there and giving it preference under our free trade deal.

[Moonlight Graham]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

Mexico would be better. More jobs there means less chaos at the US border so we and the US should be encouraging manufacturing there and giving it preference under our free trade deal.

I literally don't care where the workers come from.  As long as it isn't an enemy like China.

[Argus]

John Ivison makes the point about just how utterly hapless and stupid this government is over China. It has granted a Chinese government owned security company which has been found guilty of bribing and trying to spy on foreign governments access to their 'qualified' list of vendors, to sell x-ray machines to Canadian embassies and high commissions around the world. They said it was the low bidder, but that doesn't turn out to be correct. And the same company was found to have used a 'honey trap' to persuade a functionary in Taiwan to buy these same machines for their airports so they could spy on Taiwan.

Given their behaviour towards us, given their sanctions, can anyone think of any reason why we would consider making purchases (let alone security equipment) from any Chinese government company, even when it isn't the low bidder?

A story in the Taipei Times earlier this year detailed how a senior official in Taiwan’s airport security police was convicted of taking kickbacks related to a multimillion dollar contract to supply X-ray scanners to the Taiwanese government. Investigators alleged that the Chinese company supplying the scanners had sent a 30-something female sales manager to Taiwan to lure Sun Yi-ming into a honey trap, as part of a scheme aimed at penetrating the island’s airport and border security.

Sun was sentenced to 17 years in jail for colluding with the Chinese company to have parts shipped for assembly and repackaged in Japan, in an attempt to deceive Taiwanese regulators and bypass a ban on security equipment from China.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/john-ivison-ottawas-fig-leaf-excuse-for-inviting-chinese-x-rays-into-canadas-embassies-just-blew-away/wcm/93ace9ee-c60a-42c8-b432-a649fce8d5e4/

Edited August 12, 2020 by Argus

[Moonlight Graham]

Canada and every other western country should ban all Chinese computer hardware and software.  It's all a potential national security threat.

[onlythetruthmatters]

17 hours ago, Argus said:

Mexico would be better. More jobs there means less chaos at the US border so we and the US should be encouraging manufacturing there and giving it preference under our free trade deal.

We should coordinate free trade deals with envirnomental laws etc.....

[onlythetruthmatters]

4 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Canada and every other western country should ban all Chinese computer hardware and software.  It's all a potential national security threat.

We should impliment a plan ending trade with them completely. Start with the most expensive and sensitive goods and move all the way down to the dollar store stuff.

Its time to stop ignoring who they really are( not the Chinese people)  the rulers of China. What is Trudeau waiting for...More evidence facts

[onlythetruthmatters]

15 hours ago, Argus said:

John Ivison makes the point about just how utterly hapless and stupid this government is over China. It has granted a Chinese government owned security company which has been found guilty of bribing and trying to spy on foreign governments access to their 'qualified' list of vendors, to sell x-ray machines to Canadian embassies and high commissions around the world. They said it was the low bidder, but that doesn't turn out to be correct. And the same company was found to have used a 'honey trap' to persuade a functionary in Taiwan to buy these same machines for their airports so they could spy on Taiwan.

Given their behaviour towards us, given their sanctions, can anyone think of any reason why we would consider making purchases (let alone security equipment) from any Chinese government company, even when it isn't the low bidder?

A story in the Taipei Times earlier this year detailed how a senior official in Taiwan’s airport security police was convicted of taking kickbacks related to a multimillion dollar contract to supply X-ray scanners to the Taiwanese government. Investigators alleged that the Chinese company supplying the scanners had sent a 30-something female sales manager to Taiwan to lure Sun Yi-ming into a honey trap, as part of a scheme aimed at penetrating the island’s airport and border security.

Sun was sentenced to 17 years in jail for colluding with the Chinese company to have parts shipped for assembly and repackaged in Japan, in an attempt to deceive Taiwanese regulators and bypass a ban on security equipment from China.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/john-ivison-ottawas-fig-leaf-excuse-for-inviting-chinese-x-rays-into-canadas-embassies-just-blew-away/wcm/93ace9ee-c60a-42c8-b432-a649fce8d5e4/

Lets not even let the Government pick and choose what to ban, they are incapable.....Lets Ban everything..........I don't even want cat or dog food coming from there, Children's toys etc.

The evidence is overwhelming. Its absolutely crazy to even deal or make companies here compete with China......Tibet, Hong kong, Muslims in the North......What are we waiting for......

[Michael Hardner]

9 minutes ago, onlythetruthmatters said:

Lets not even let the Government pick and choose what to ban, they are incapable.....Lets Ban everything..........I don't even want cat or dog food coming from there, Children's toys etc.

The evidence is overwhelming. Its absolutely crazy to even deal or make companies here compete with China......Tibet, Hong kong, Muslims in the North......What are we waiting for......

While I sympathize with your sentiment, you need to include a more realistic model of how trade works.  But, if you really want to look at it, international trade economists admit to not understanding the system as it is today.  The ecosystem is so complex that tinkering with it is actually a risk.  I think the Covid situation might actually be informational, as people examine what happened to supply lines during the pandemic.

With your proposal, for example, you are banning iPhones.  Are you going to allow trade with the US where components parts come from China anyway ?   And what about Chinese companies IN Canada ?  What are we going to do with our exports ?  Our coal mines can't really be repurposed to create cat food, right ?

I would very much like to pursue this topic, but we really need someone with a deep knowledge of trade.  I know a bit, but only enough to ask questions and point out contradictions.

Thanks for your post.

[OftenWrong]

15 minutes ago, onlythetruthmatters said:

Lets not even let the Government pick and choose what to ban, they are incapable.....Lets Ban everything..........I don't even want cat or dog food coming from there, Children's toys etc.

The evidence is overwhelming. Its absolutely crazy to even deal or make companies here compete with China......Tibet, Hong kong, Muslims in the North......What are we waiting for......

We can't just turn our backs on them. We don't produce a lot of things that are essential. Canada buys almost all of its pharmaceutical drugs from China, as well as computer parts and PPE. Before we give them the mighty Trudeau-salute we have to build factories and create an industry. That will take years.

It's a quagmire...

[onlythetruthmatters]

5 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

While I sympathize with your sentiment, you need to include a more realistic model of how trade works.  But, if you really want to look at it, international trade economists admit to not understanding the system as it is today.  The ecosystem is so complex that tinkering with it is actually a risk.  I think the Covid situation might actually be informational, as people examine what happened to supply lines during the pandemic.

With your proposal, for example, you are banning iPhones.  Are you going to allow trade with the US where components parts come from China anyway ?   And what about Chinese companies IN Canada ?  What are we going to do with our exports ?  Our coal mines can't really be repurposed to create cat food, right ?

I would very much like to pursue this topic, but we really need someone with a deep knowledge of trade.  I know a bit, but only enough to ask questions and point out contradictions.

Thanks for your post.

I get your concerns I'm not saying do it tomorrow it will take some planning. We need to engage companies in the matter. There will be some pain and hiccups the matter is urgent and we need to ask the experts how this can be done. Yes our economy is coupled and it needs to be decoupled.......Unleash capitalism in the matter...

[onlythetruthmatters]

6 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

We can't just turn our backs on them. We don't produce a lot of things that are essential. Canada buys almost all of its pharmaceutical drugs from China, as well as computer parts and PPE. Before we give them the mighty Trudeau-salute we have to build factories and create an industry. That will take years.

It's a quagmire...

We have to start the ball rolling. I get your points this is not about the Chinese people they are hard working and I admire them. This is about the enemy the communist government. 

Things don,t need to be produced in China.....there are other countries it will take some time......Economically we can't afford to pay others to do our work while we pay people here to sit on their behinds......This is all related to the debt, housing market and China....economically speaking.......its unsustainable.........Government policy put us here. You are right it is a quagmire....we have no choice this is a different type of war.... economic...... and people better start understanding....and quick

[onlythetruthmatters]

We have been lied too.....me even as a home grown economist believed in the lies.....I can see the results of the failed experiment. Some people made a lot of money.

many lost their lives and many are addicted to drugs...its all related to the hollowing out of the economy.

Most countries have a huge trade deficit with China and Germany for far to long sustained on debt....I don't believe this is how its supposed to work.....Some countries are gaming economics with tricks....I'll call them

[OftenWrong]

18 minutes ago, onlythetruthmatters said:

We have to start the ball rolling. I get your points this is not about the Chinese people they are hard working and I admire them. This is about the enemy the communist government. 

Things don,t need to be produced in China.....there are other countries it will take some time......Economically we can't afford to pay others to do our work while we pay people here to sit on their behinds......This is all related to the debt, housing market and China....economically speaking.......its unsustainable.........Government policy put us here. You are right it is a quagmire....we have no choice this is a different type of war.... economic...... and people better start understanding....and quick

- I did not say this is not about the chinese people. I can't say I admire them either. Not racist. I despise their culture.

Things should be produced here. Outsourcing to "India" etc. is equally absurd. I and others have said this for decades.

Progressive liberal chickens coming home to roost...

Edited August 13, 2020 by OftenWrong

[onlythetruthmatters]

1 minute ago, OftenWrong said:

- I did not say this is not about the chinese people. I can't say I admire them either. Not racist. I despise their culture.

Things should be produced here. Outsourcing to "India" etc. instead is equally absurd. I and others have said this for decades.

Liberal chickens coming home to roost...

yes I know you didn't .....I agree india is out.......I,m for trade....But why not set some rules that everyone has to follow to enter a trade agreement.....

 

[onlythetruthmatters]

Guess what they will blame it on Capitalism.....This isn,t Capitalism....If the Chinese won was,t pegged the deficits with china would never rise as high as they did. Because their currency would go up and products they make would be more expensive.

This is an example of gaming the system i referred too.....and this created a lot of other excesses

[onlythetruthmatters]

Its nice for Apple to have a rising US$where they sell and a flat Chinese currency where they pay for labour....I,m not blaming Apple...Its the governments fault they set the rules and we even as investors or companies can only play to win....This could never happen with a floating currency.

Lets not forget the stock market is big the bond market is bigger and currency markets the biggest....so just follow the money...

[Thinkinoutsidethebox]

20 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

You can't do that, it's more expensive to produce products here, and those products won't be able to compete with Chinese-manufactured products.  You have to move manufacturing to another 3rd world country, like India.

Then the problem moves to India... 

This kind of narrow minded thinking is why Canada is going broke. Our tax dollars are going to educated people with huge educations, initials before and after their names, "think tanks" etc and the best they can come up with is "our labor is too expensive, we need to outsource it and pay our people not to work. Let's give away our resources and buy them back at hugely inflated prices. Let's encourage foreign investment so they can operate tax free and take their profits out of the country. We need to hire as many cheap foreign workers as possible so they can send all their money home. We need to produce as much pollution as possible to keep the economy working. Etc." 

Why can't someone say "Hey! If we encourage local manufacturing the money, resources, labor stay within our borders. How could we model this to make it work?" 

So here we are trying to ride the coattails of huge economies, trying to play with the "big boys" and giving away our country in the process. 

How close are we to becoming the next Brazil? 

 

[Michael Hardner]

3 hours ago, onlythetruthmatters said:

I get your concerns I'm not saying do it tomorrow it will take some planning. We need to engage companies in the matter. There will be some pain and hiccups the matter is urgent and we need to ask the experts how this can be done. Yes our economy is coupled and it needs to be decoupled.......Unleash capitalism in the matter...

I'm glad to hear that you recognize patience is key.  And we can nurture patience in our public input.

I would agree to unleash capitalism, and moreover unleash a Canadian model that is nationally focused and processes things like NIMBYism and zealotry of all kinds, which means listens to the concerns and brings them down to earth.  We can only do so much, as Canada.  But we can do a lot.

[Moonlight Graham]

5 hours ago, Thinkinoutsidethebox said:

Then the problem moves to India...

Then move it to Bangladesh.  Or wherever.

Manufacturing jobs aren't coming back to Canada, nor should they.  Making our products more expensive means they can't compete globally, and in the end making Canada poorer.  If you want to know why North American car companies have been failing over the last few decades, blame the union manufacturing jobs.

Canada and US's problem is that for decades we've been feeding the rise of a new global superpower in China when everyone knew this was going to be the result.  Now we're paying the price for our greed.