What to do about China

[Cannucklehead]

17 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

No....Canadians have their own biased narrative... same as the Americans.   Bashing the U.S. is great for domestic politics.

Nations states have interests...not friends.   Canada gladly accepts and very much desires American collaboration on many fronts...including COVID-19 vaccine production and logistics.

Not exactly true.  

 

https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/canadians-opinions-of-u-s-drop-to-lowest-level-in-nearly-40-years-survey-1.5146519

 

Depends on which "america" you are referring to.  

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, Cannucklehead said:

Not exactly true.  

Depends on which "america" you are referring to.  

 

Very true....Canada has been playing this game going back to at least Pierre Trudeau.  Trying to strike a balance between being seen as a U.S. poodle and having its own independent foreign policy.   Whether it was Cuba or China, and especially with Liberal governments, Canada liked to strike the pose and thumb its nose at America to great applause back home, all while becoming even more dependent on American capital, export market, and military support.

This is an arrogant but true thing to say...Canada needs America a lot more than America needs Canada....but both nations benefit from the relationship.

 

 

 

[Michael Hardner]

7 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

China brings a ton of investment into this country, and the Harper Conservatives move to money just like any other party.  Sorry Michael, I don't trust them.

I was making the point that you reiterated in that first sentence.  I don't see why you apologized.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

No worries....Canada doesn't even have its own back.

I'm not agreeing to the post you have replied to, but I would say Canada has shown political cohesion in this crisis in comparison to the US.  The divisions that have come up have been focused on an amorphous group of so-called anti-maskers whose political programming is uncertain at best, at least in the framework of the established parties.

 

I am not waving a flag, though.  If we had been going through a tight election as the US was during the pandemic we could be in the exact same boat.

[Petros]

2 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Nations states have interests...not friends.   Canada gladly accepts and very much desires American collaboration on many fronts...including COVID-19 vaccine production and logistics.

I fail to see your point, considering America depends on Canada just as much as Canada depends on the USA.

[Petros]

2 hours ago, Cannucklehead said:

Not exactly true.  

 

https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/canadians-opinions-of-u-s-drop-to-lowest-level-in-nearly-40-years-survey-1.5146519

This is hardly unique to Canada.  During the Trump Administration, World opinion of America has dropped to record lows, especially in Europe, the Far East, and Australia. In fact, the only country where people have a slightly more favorable opinion of America from 5 years ago, is Israel.

 

[OftenWrong]

11 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

The answer is for us to explain to our cohorts that Trudeau, Scheer, Singh, all of them are not like us, but they're not necessarily evil.  And we as citizens don't know everything - we have to put our trust in them, that's just how it works.

I'm sorry to put it this way, but what utter, utter bullshyte. Trust them? Trust Doug Ford? Trust Justin Trudeau, a man who has never worked hard a day in his life, never had a practical job, yet got propelled to the head of government.

Challenging the government is not a burden on us, it is our duty.

[OftenWrong]

8 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

The Harper gov wasn't one to be naively idealistic.  But they seem to have been with China.  The whole of the West has tried the "peacefully trade and hope they reform" approach, but it hasn't worked, democracy hasn't spread in China like we hoped.  China wants absolutely nothing other than to increase its power.

China brings a ton of investment into this country, and the Harper Conservatives move to money just like any other party.  Sorry Michael, I don't trust them.

Back then China was going through a kind of cultural industrial revolution. It made sense for "the world" to encourage them to modernize and most of all, to humanize their society. That was the hope, but the reality is a communist leopard cannot change it's spots. The leopard cannot and will not learn. The only way to deal with a leopard is, to kill it.

 

[Petros]

34 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Back then China was going through a kind of cultural industrial revolution. It made sense for "the world" to encourage them to modernize and most of all, to humanize their society. That was the hope, but the reality is a communist leopard cannot change it's spots. The leopard cannot and will not learn. The only way to deal with a leopard is, to kill it.

 

 

Most countries who implemented Communist systems did so because the people rose up against a corrupt Government, who shafted 98% of the population, to keep all the wealth for themselves and their political allies. They just chose to go with another horrible system (Communism). Russia, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, the Baltic States, Ukraine, Croatia, Serbia, Hungary, Slovakia, Romania, and Bulgaria all had Communist Governments for decades. All these countries never really were wealthy to begin with, and continue to strive for the quality of life Western Europe enjoys, and have free market economies.

 

Edited December 18, 2020 by Petros

[Michael Hardner]

54 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

I'm sorry to put it this way, but what utter, utter bullshyte. Trust them? Trust Doug Ford? Trust Justin Trudeau, a man who has never worked hard a day in his life, never had a practical job, yet got propelled to the head of government.

Challenging the government is not a burden on us, it is our duty.

You can both trust government and challenge them, it's not hard.  In fact the system is successful because we know how to do this.

[Nefarious Banana]

21 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

You can both trust government and challenge them, it's not hard.  In fact the system is successful because we know how to do this.

A rather amusing statement . . . . you, using the word 'trust' in reference to the present Federal Govt.

Your center Canadian definition of unity is 180 degrees from what is really happening in western Canada.

[Argus]

13 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

My reaction when I see a story like that is... "hmmm.  That's strange.  I wonder why they're doing that.  There must be some advantage that I don't understand, because I don't have a career as a military strategist"

Now... fast forward seven years, make it Trudeau

You don't think quite a bit has changed in the last seven years with regard to China's behaviour and our appreciation of the risks they represent?

[Argus]

52 minutes ago, Petros said:

 

Most countries who implemented Communist systems did so because the people rose up against a corrupt Government, who shafted 98% of the population, to keep all the wealth for themselves and their political allies. They just chose to go with another horrible system (Communism). Russia, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, the Baltic States, Ukraine, Croatia, Serbia, Hungary, Slovakia, Romania, and Bulgaria all had Communist Governments for decades. All these countries never really were wealthy to begin with, and continue to strive for the quality of life Western Europe enjoys, and have free market economies.

 

You're talking like people voted in these governments. They didn't. The ones in Europe had Communism imposed by the Soviets. Others were imposed through violence and revolutions that never involved more than a fraction of the populace.

And, I might add, Communist governments were and are prone to the same corruption as others authoritarian regimes. With no free press, free court system or anyone to stop them those in charge loot the till.

[Petros]

1 minute ago, Argus said:

You're talking like people voted in these governments. They didn't. The ones in Europe had Communism imposed by the Soviets. Others were imposed through violence and revolutions that never involved more than a fraction of the populace.

And, I might add, Communist governments were and are prone to the same corruption as others authoritarian regimes. With no free press, free court system or anyone to stop them those in charge loot the till.

Yes, correct. Sorry if my message was misunderstood.  Communism is a failed system, and in Eastern Europe it was imposed on the nations the Soviets "liberated" after WW2.

[OftenWrong]

1 hour ago, Petros said:

 

Most countries who implemented Communist systems did so because the people rose up against a corrupt Government, who shafted 98% of the population, to keep all the wealth for themselves and their political allies. They just chose to go with another horrible system (Communism). Russia, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, the Baltic States, Ukraine, Croatia, Serbia, Hungary, Slovakia, Romania, and Bulgaria all had Communist Governments for decades. All these countries never really were wealthy to begin with, and continue to strive for the quality of life Western Europe enjoys, and have free market economies.

 

Is that you, Leonard Trotsky?  

[OftenWrong]

54 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

You can both trust government and challenge them, it's not hard.  In fact the system is successful because we know how to do this.

You are free to trust the DoFo...

[bush_cheney2004]

2 hours ago, Petros said:

I fail to see your point, considering America depends on Canada just as much as Canada depends on the USA.

 

But that is not the case at all....not economically...not culturally...and not for defence.

The U.S. (and other independently minded nations) have already sanctioned China when needed.  For some reason, Canada remains very timid with China ostensibly because of canola and pig farmers.   The "two Michaels" are already detained, so grow a pair.

What to do about China ?   Impose sanctions...deport diplomats...cancel visas...etc., etc., without having to depend on backup from the U.S. or any other nation.   This Trudeau government appears very weak compared even to Liberal governments of the past, and China will continue to exploit this weakness.

Hell, cut Meng loose if you think China will deal.  

Just...do...something.

 

Edited December 18, 2020 by bush_cheney2004

[Argus]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

You can both trust government and challenge them, it's not hard.  In fact the system is successful because we know how to do this.

Bruce McCall apparently wrote about Canada's "bland tolerance for mediocrity.”  This suggestion of success would be what he was writing about. The system is most definitely not successful.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Nefarious Banana said:

Your center Canadian definition of unity is 180 degrees from what is really happening in western Canada.

Yes but only since Confederation.

[Michael Hardner]

2 minutes ago, Argus said:

Bruce McCall apparently wrote about Canada's "bland tolerance for mediocrity.”  This suggestion of success would be what he was writing about. The system is most definitely not successful.

Oh, ok so you are one of those patriots who think Canada is a failure.  I never knew.

[Petros]

59 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

But that is not the case at all....not economically...not culturally...and not for defence.

The U.S. (and other independently minded nations) have already sanctioned China when needed.  For some reason, Canada remains very timid with China ostensibly because of canola and pig farmers.   The "two Michaels" are already detained, so grow a pair.

What to do about China ?   Impose sanctions...deport diplomats...cancel visas...etc., etc., without having to depend on backup from the U.S. or any other nation.   This Trudeau government appears very weak compared even to Liberal governments of the past, and China will continue to exploit this weakness.

Hell, cut Meng loose if you think China will deal.  

Just...do...something.

 

I'll give you this Bush Cheney.  You have some good ideas.

[Argus]

57 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Oh, ok so you are one of those patriots who think Canada is a failure.  I never knew.

You're not listening. Or perhaps not reading properly. Do you think 'the system' we currently have in place is the same as the system which built Canada? Do you think a nonentity like Trudeau could ever have been prime minister even as recently as his father's day?

Edited December 18, 2020 by Argus

[Nefarious Banana]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

Yes but only since Confederation.

Care to clarify your odd response ?

[Michael Hardner]

43 minutes ago, Argus said:

1. Do you think 'the system' we currently have in place is the same as the system which built Canada?
2. Do you think a nonentity like Trudeau could ever have been prime minister even as recently as his father's day?

1. The part I am talking about - yes, absolutely.
2. No, he couldn't be PM unless his dad was.

[Argus]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. The part I am talking about - yes, absolutely.
2. No, he couldn't be PM unless his dad was.

Well, regardless, a system which produces a stream of nonentities is a system which is going to live up to the mediocrity of the nonentities in charge of it. We tolerate mediocrity, as McCall said. Our politicians have no idea what to do about the major issues of the day. There is little in the way of leadership or vision at any level of government. The public service under those politicians is similarly full of mediocrities, often (like the politicians) promoted far over their abilities due to extraneous factors such as loyalty to those above, who they know, what identity group they're from, bilingualism (that's a big one), and where they're from.