The road to 2020

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

So it looks like Trump is under the belief if he can stop mail-in voting he can stay president.

 

The U.S. Postal Service has been losing money for years (same as Canada Post) and would have caused delays and uncounted ballots regardless of Trump's desires.

States would need earlier mailing deadlines to qualify all mailed in ballots.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

The U.S. Postal Service has been losing money for years (same as Canada Post) and would have caused delays and uncounted ballots regardless of Trump's desires.

States would need earlier mailing deadlines to qualify all mailed in ballots.

The reason the post office has been losing money for years is because a Republican congress ordered them to prepay all the pension contributions of their employees for a dozen years, something no other corporation, company or government agency has to do. I believe the intention was to run them out of business so that courier companies who donate money to the Republicans can take over.

[bush_cheney2004]

4 minutes ago, Argus said:

The reason the post office has been losing money for years is because a Republican congress ordered them to prepay all the pension contributions of their employees for a dozen years, something no other corporation, company or government agency has to do. I believe the intention was to run them out of business so that courier companies who donate money to the Republicans can take over.

 

That's only one of the reasons...many other factors have contributed to USPS insolvency.

Republicans have no impact on Canada Post, which has suffered the same fate.

[WestCanMan]

15 hours ago, Cannucklehead said:

Why would you think they would do it with mail in ballots then?  

It's pretty easy to get someone to fill in their ballot when you're standing over them. You can even fill it out for them. No need to hospitalize anyone.

[WestCanMan]

15 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Indeed....but in reality about 40% of eligible American voters don't even bother to vote.  Could be less with COVID in 2020.

It is extreme for the partisan groups trying to win the precincts in swing states with very slim margins.

So there are all these ballots for the 40% who don't show up, if you can find a way to use 1/10th of those votes with mail-in fraud that's enough to swing almost any state. 

[bush_cheney2004]

8 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

So there are all these ballots for the 40% who don't show up, if you can find a way to use 1/10th of those votes with mail-in fraud that's enough to swing almost any state. 

 

Most of the 40% will still not engage, so the remaining cohort of party members and independents determine the outcome, except for states that are firmly blue or red.   There are also over votes, under votes, spoiled ballots, counting errors, and recount challenges for close election outcomes.

The Democrats start with a big advantage because of California and New York, but still managed to blow it in 2016.

President Trump will stoke his base and hammer the Biden ticket in swing states.

 

 

[-TSS-]

Picking Kamala Harris as the VP-candidate may prove to be a costly mistake for Biden. She is not a likeable person at all perhaps least of all among the black community. Her record in the primaries was quite telling. As people expect Biden either to drop dead or become permanenetly incapacitated during next four years they don't want Kamala Harris to take over as President.

[Argus]

2 hours ago, -TSS- said:

Picking Kamala Harris as the VP-candidate may prove to be a costly mistake for Biden. She is not a likeable person at all perhaps least of all among the black community. Her record in the primaries was quite telling. As people expect Biden either to drop dead or become permanenetly incapacitated during next four years they don't want Kamala Harris to take over as President.

It's not like he had much to choose from after making that stupid promise.

[OftenWrong]

On 8/14/2020 at 11:59 PM, Cannucklehead said:

Really?  *unbuckles belt*

That could happen in the muslim houses, I guess. 

[Boges]

Trump fears fraud ahead of the election if more people vote by mail. 

In response he and his Postermaster General Stooge commit actual fraud by trying to hamper the Postal Services ability to process the mail. 

In states that matter (Battleground states) any registered voter can request an absentee ballot and don't have to give a reason. Trump himself does it. 

[Boges]

On 8/15/2020 at 4:03 PM, WestCanMan said:

So there are all these ballots for the 40% who don't show up, if you can find a way to use 1/10th of those votes with mail-in fraud that's enough to swing almost any state. 

Only in states with Universal Mail-In voting, All strong democrat states already. And those ballots only go out to registered voters, not everyone with a mailing address. It's not like the Phone Book. 

In the states that matter, a registered voter can obtain an absentee ballot to avoid voting in-person during a pandemic. Trump can't change that. What he's trying to change is making it difficult for that registered voter to get their ballot and have it securely returned. 

Edited August 17, 2020 by Boges

[OftenWrong]

There's nothing wrong with wanting fair and valid elections. Any voter can request an absentee ballot, but the system is balanced on the principle that it's a small number of poeple  compared to the main vote held in person at the polls. So even if mail ballot is more susceptible to fraud, it doesn't have that much impact. Likwise I can envision that it would be much more work for officials to vet millions of mail-in votes compared to the normally low number of mail in votes. That all just makes common sense and we don't need to look anything up to understand it.

[Boges]

2 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

There's nothing wrong with wanting fair and valid elections. Any voter can request an absentee ballot, but the system is balanced on the principle that it's a small number of poeple  compared to the main vote held in person at the polls. So even if mail ballot is more susceptible to fraud, it doesn't have that much impact. Likwise I can envision that it would be much more work for officials to vet millions of mail-in votes compared to the normally low number of mail in votes. That all just makes common sense and we don't need to look anything up to understand it.

And the solution is to make the Postal Service less capable of handling the ballots? 

[Boges]

The North Carolina GOP are sending out Absentee ballot applications with a Trump tweet on the cover. They have to black out half of the tweet. The first part he says Absentee ballots are great but then trashes mail-in voting. 

THEY'RE THE SAME!!!!! 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/16/politics/postal-service-trump-absentee-ballot-request-mail-usps/index.html

[OftenWrong]

5 hours ago, Boges said:

And the solution is to make the Postal Service less capable of handling the ballots? 

Possibly to stop a bad situation from becoming worse, if the rate of mail-in is considered untenable due to high possibility of fraud.

[Argus]

25 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Possibly to stop a bad situation from becoming worse, if the rate of mail-in is considered untenable due to high possibility of fraud.

But Florida routinely has a huge number of it's people vote by mail and Trump is saying that's all good. So what's different between Florida and Michigan or Nevada?

[dialamah]

15 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Possibly to stop a bad situation from becoming worse, if the rate of mail-in is considered untenable due to high possibility of fraud.

"There might be fraud if we go with mail-in ballots!  What shall we do?!"  "I know, let's make the postal system slower and less efficient, because more chaos and less efficiency prevents fraud, yup!"

And, remembering how concerned you were about older people losing their quality of life due to covid shutdowns, I think you'll be shocked and dismayed to learn that many Americans, including seniors, are not able to get their meds thanks to this "Fraud Prevention" scheme of Trump's.   Mailed meds seems to the standard for vets, too.

Not to mention the businesses who receive payment by cheque in the mail - quaint, I know, but not everybody in the States has access to internet for online banking.    

But hey, no sacrifice is too big as long as it will keep Trump in power.

[-TSS-]

I guess that when the primaries began it was considered so obvious that Trump was going to win easily so that more credible Democrat candidates didn't want to bother but then the virus and the economic problems caused by the lockdowns changed the game Biden has become a favourite.

Surely things can't be that hopeless that Biden is the best the Democrats have got?

[OftenWrong]

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

"There might be fraud if we go with mail-in ballots!  What shall we do?!"  "I know, let's make the postal system slower and less efficient, because more chaos and less efficiency prevents fraud, yup!"

And, remembering how concerned you were about older people losing their quality of life due to covid shutdowns, I think you'll be shocked and dismayed to learn that many Americans, including seniors, are not able to get their meds thanks to this "Fraud Prevention" scheme of Trump's.   Mailed meds seems to the standard for vets, too.

Not to mention the businesses who receive payment by cheque in the mail - quaint, I know, but not everybody in the States has access to internet for online banking.    

But hey, no sacrifice is too big as long as it will keep Trump in power.

If you think any of this gets a rise out of me, you're sadly mistaken.

Why would you bring old people's meds into my comments about what I think for the mail in ballot? I never mentioned it. Never heard of it before.

I lmao when Trump won, but I get why he did. That doesn't mean I think it was good for the world. The difference is that the alternative wasn't good for the world either. I look at his presidency as revealing the real truth behind power structures in the world. Garrishly hostile and violent. The thin veneer of civilization drawn away.

I guess it makes you feel good to know I am the bad man. Yes, @dialamah?

I am.

Edited August 18, 2020 by OftenWrong

[OftenWrong]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

But Florida routinely has a huge number of it's people vote by mail and Trump is saying that's all good. So what's different between Florida and Michigan or Nevada?

Can't answer that one. But every state is a different picture in the US. Florida is far away from Michigan, for example.

The idea of using mail in ballot for a substantial part of the vote does represent a new and major change. Unprecedented, if you will. If I were the president I'd want to make sure the vote was every bit as valid and fair as in a normal election. Otherwise, shitcan it. Not good.

[OftenWrong]

24 minutes ago, -TSS- said:

Surely things can't be that hopeless that Biden is the best the Democrats have got?

I'm guessing because he was the one with the most money and big power connections. Bloomberg used his money to destroy Sanders. Now Bloomberg has been seen sniffing around Joe's tail.

[Moonlight Graham]

On 8/15/2020 at 3:55 PM, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

That's only one of the reasons...many other factors have contributed to USPS insolvency.

Republicans have no impact on Canada Post, which has suffered the same fate.

Maybe they're also losing money because they're losing business to email, paperless billing, and private couriers etc. The vast majority of mail I get is bills and statements.

If you still have to pay drivers to deliver etc but less mail in the system, revenue is down.  Sounds like they need to increase the cost of stamps and shipping.  But then maybe that will make them even less likely to compete with couriers.

[Boges]

12 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Can't answer that one. But every state is a different picture in the US. Florida is far away from Michigan, for example.

The idea of using mail in ballot for a substantial part of the vote does represent a new and major change. Unprecedented, if you will. If I were the president I'd want to make sure the vote was every bit as valid and fair as in a normal election. Otherwise, shitcan it. Not good.

So people are able to count millions of ballots the day of an election, no problem. But to count them if they come in ahead of time? Big problem? 

The volume isn't an issue of the Postal Service was properly funded. They deal with Holiday seasons no problem. 

[OftenWrong]

3 minutes ago, Boges said:

So people are able to count millions of ballots the day of an election, no problem. But to count them if they come in ahead of time? Big problem?

I would assume it's not just the counting itself, but the way the votes are collected and kept under control until they are counted.

Quote

The volume isn't an issue of the Postal Service was properly funded. They deal with Holiday seasons no problem. 

You can throw money into a black hole all you want. If there's enough security risk, it won't make things better.

Comparing votes to sending Christmas cards now?

[Boges]

2 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

I would assume it's not just the counting itself, but the way the votes are collected and kept under control until they are counted.

You can throw money into a black hole all you want. If there's enough security risk, it won't make things better.

The risk is certainly increased if you hamper the service. Trump's looking for a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

There's no law that caps the amount of people that can use absentee ballots and in most states there's not set reasons one can use. 

So any challenge to the validity of the system is just hand-wringing. People should get their ballots in early. 

 

Quote

Comparing votes to sending Christmas cards now?

It's comparable volume.