Are humans really responsible for climate change?

[Argus]

Rex Murphy puts things into perspective.

 

And within Canada, any serious response to our own Paris commitments would require “… drastic economic overhaul … hiking the price of gas by up to 100 per cent, ceasing development of the oilsands, radically reducing the number of Canadians who drive every day, along with many other actions — and all within a period of 10 years.” It would require crippling industrial output in every sector, with the further inevitable burden of a great reduction in what we regard as essential government services. That’s not a “price on pollution.” It’s a determination to greatly lower living standards for a higher cause.

If the government really believes its own rhetoric on global warming, there’s the real cost, and anything less is a sham.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/rex-murphy-how-the-liberal-carbon-tax-is-not-unlike-a-2000-cat-door

Edited January 6, 2019 by Argus

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

Nah, I embrace the American first amendment definition of free speech, the crazy Canadian impulse to censor Chinese Communist style is just another reason this country needs to be ended.

Wow.  Every time I talk about Climate lies somebody defends lying....

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

1. You asked 'what are the reasons' for staying with fossil fuels.

2. I haven't seen you criticize 'bad' posts from liberals, and I largely have the 'bad' conservatives on my ignore list.

1. He said there were non-economic reasons.  I'm not sure if your answer covers what he was thinking about there or not.

2. Pfft.  I guess you haven't read much of me and Waldo, for one example.  Most of the bad liberals left awhile ago.

[Dougie93]

Well, the American first and second amendments are the last lights burning in a world sliding back into totalitarianism, so, even as a Canadian, I'd stand shoulder to shoulder with the Americans to defend them unto death as necessary, if they'd have me.

[Zeitgeist]

10 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Well, the American first and second amendments are the last lights burning in a world sliding back into totalitarianism, so, even as a Canadian, I'd stand shoulder to shoulder with the Americans to defend them unto death as necessary, if they'd have me.

The US is a very volatile and polarized society that has paid a huge price for the 2nd Amendment. I’m grateful we don’t have that in Canada and I think we need to go further in gun control before fear takes over and people start wanting arms because “all the bad guys have them and won’t give them up”.  We have a more peaceful and harmonious society. Free speech is fine in Canada.  The Ontario government just passed legislation to protect open dialogue and free expression in universities. The Toronto academies are still great open fora with a proud history from Jordan Peterson to Marshall McLuhan. The fall debate between David Frum and Steve Bannon, which went ahead protests aside, is another reminder that people don’t want to silence the left or the right.  

Edited January 6, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Wow.  Every time I talk about Climate lies somebody defends lying....

Not lying.  The right to lie.

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

The US is a very volatile and polarized society that has paid a huge price for the 2nd Amendment. I’m grateful we don’t have that in Canada and I think we need to go further in gun control before fear takes over and people start wanting arms because “all the bad guys have them and won’t give them up”.  We have a more peaceful and harmonious society. Free speech is fine in Canada.  The Ontario government just passed legislation to protect open dialogue and free expression in universities. The Toronto academies are still great open fora with a proud history from Jordan Peterson to Marshall McLuhan. The fall debate between David Frum and Steve Bannon, which went ahead protests aside, is another reminder that people don’t want to silence the left or the right.  

Liberty > Safety.

You do what you gotta do, but I'll not cower in the bottom of my trench in the face of totalitarian "Peace and Harmony", cause "Peace and Harmony" at any cost is the doctrine of the People's Communist Party of China.

[Argus]

43 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. He said there were non-economic reasons.  I'm not sure if your answer covers what he was thinking about there or not.

I don't care what HE was thinking. I told you what I was thinking.

Quote

2. Pfft.  I guess you haven't read much of me and Waldo, for one example.  Most of the bad liberals left awhile ago.

Waldo was on my ignore list while he was here. And if you expect me to reply to Taxme, forget it. He's there too. I also tend to largely ignore people's discussions with such characters.

Edited January 6, 2019 by Argus

[Zeitgeist]

18 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Liberty > Safety.

You do what you gotta do, but I'll not cower in the bottom of my trench in the face of totalitarian "Peace and Harmony", cause "Peace and Harmony" at any cost is the doctrine of the People's Communist Party of China.

Are you suggesting Canada is better positioned to protect its values by cozying up to China?  China has detained Canadians for spurious reasons.  We are watching closely to see how this Weng extradition business unfolds.  I think that Canadians learned in 2018 that we have it better here than just about anywhere and to be wary of superpowers. 

[montgomery]

11 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Are you suggesting Canada is better positioned to protect its values by cozying up to China?  China has detained Canadians for spurious reasons.  We are watching closely to see how this Weng extradition business unfolds.  I think that Canadians learned in 2018 that we have it better here than just about anywhere and to be wary of superpowers. 

You should weigh your somewhat exaggerated complaints against China against the US alternative for Canada. How can they ever compare with the US which has started wars throughout the world and slaughtered so many millions based on lies and false pretenses? 40 US wars of aggression since WW2 alone! 

The superpower we need to be wary about is the US; their track record should tell all the Conservatives that at least. They need to know that the difference in Chinese people is no more than skin deep.

[Zeitgeist]

3 minutes ago, montgomery said:

You should weigh your somewhat exaggerated complaints against China against the US alternative for Canada. How can they ever compare with the US which has started wars throughout the world and slaughtered so many millions based on lies and false pretenses? 40 US wars of aggression since WW2 alone! 

The superpower we need to be wary about is the US; their track record should tell all the Conservatives that at least. They need to know that the difference in Chinese people is no more than skin deep.

Well China can be a healthy check on US power as long as it doesn’t start playing the imperialist game. China has been somewhat Mercantilist on trade.  We want good jobs and living standards for as many people as possible. 

[montgomery]

5 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Well China can be a healthy check on US power as long as it doesn’t start playing the imperialist game. China has been somewhat Mercantilist on trade.  We want good jobs and living standards for as many people as possible. 

Suggesting that China can be a check on US power has to be the understatement of 2019! You could have been more correct if you said the BRICS. And of course so true in the military sense because even ignorant Americans understand what M.A.D. means. Thank the dogs for it because it's prevented an allout US led World War! 

[Michael Hardner]

3 hours ago, bcsapper said:

Not lying.  The right to lie.

How do you defend the right to lie without implicity defending lying ?

Tell the truth, now...

[Michael Hardner]

3 hours ago, Argus said:

1. I don't care what HE was thinking. I told you what I was thinking.

2. Waldo was on my ignore list while he was here. And if you expect me to reply to Taxme, forget it. He's there too. I also tend to largely ignore people's discussions with such characters.

1.  Ok, right I wanted to know what you were thinking, which is why I asked him.

2. Let me see if I can respond... Am I posting in your club ?  Nope.  Never mind then.

[Dougie93]

3 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Are you suggesting Canada is better positioned to protect its values by cozying up to China?  China has detained Canadians for spurious reasons.  We are watching closely to see how this Weng extradition business unfolds.  I think that Canadians learned in 2018 that we have it better here than just about anywhere and to be wary of superpowers. 

No, I'm suggesting that Canada is becoming Maoist all on its own without any interference from China at all,  the Cultural Marxists actually originate from France in the 1970's, the Chinese do classical Bolshevism, you start yip yapping about "Intersectionality" or whatever in China, they'd just deep six you into an extra-judicial black hole, to preserve the "Peace and Harmony" of the Middle Kingdom.

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

How do you defend the right to lie without implicity defending lying ?

Tell the truth, now...

I think lying is wrong, and I would never defend it.  I have no right to dictate your behaviour, however.  So you have the right, if you want, to do something I think is wrong.

[Dougie93]

Hardner just seems incapable of grasping the subtle yet central distinction between lying and deception. /shrugs

[bush_cheney2004]

5 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Wow.  Every time I talk about Climate lies somebody defends lying....

 

Lying has served the climate change lobby as well,  so there is little advantage to be had with a war against "lying".

This has been asked before, but are you not prepared to accept the possibility (and reality) that even when well informed ("educated") about climate change, many people will still choose actions and behaviours that may or may not reduce GHG emissions ?

Find a different word to describe them in this culture war, because it is not "denier"....that is a lie too.

Edited January 6, 2019 by bush_cheney2004

[OftenWrong]

4 hours ago, Argus said:

I don't care what HE was thinking. I told you what I was thinking.

Are you guys both like, blind? I said basically the same thing you did. Maybe you missed that.

Lack of reliable high power alternatives, but I said it in the context of energy security. While part of that includes economics (everything practically does, like you said) it also concerns other things in its consideration. Waiting for your reply on that @Michael Hardner

[eyeball]

On 1/4/2019 at 8:41 PM, OftenWrong said:

Not sure what planet you're on but the Chinese also have their 1%. That's practically everywhere in the world.

Yes, its been this way for thousands of years on Earth. It's a result of power, not money.

Quote

In their case given the large population, many millions live in poverty. They toil in low paying jobs, minimal education, work at an early age. Even, child labour. And that, is your leftism in action. Real-world leftism looks like that, not what's written in your little theory book.

It was like this before Mao too.  Real-world power usually looks the same everywhere no matter who has it. It probably works the same on the other side of the universe.

Quote

The level of pollution they generate is appalling, as we got a glimpse of during the Beijing Olympics. There's your major source of greenhouse gases, fella. So don't come talking to me about paying your leftist taxes, while these people are billowing shit into the atmosphere ten thousand times more than us.

Recall this is the same place you can't wait for Ottawa to force a pipeline towards - there's your real source of billowing shit right there.  In any case you made a much stronger statement about the cause of climate change not just a source of emissions. You actually stated climate change itself was started by the left.  That's a pretty retarded thing to say and like I've been saying for some time it was only a matter of time before right-wingers started saying it.  Thanks for proving me right.

Quote

Me too.

Good, we finally agree on something.

Quote

And the corruption of left wing parties.

Something that is entirely due to the dynamics of power not ideology.  That said, I never met a right-winger who wasn't a butt-sniff to authority especially when its in the hands of a conservative. 

Quote

Since it's clear we're not getting out of making deals with the Chinese, Saudis or otherwise malfeasant anytime soon, I prefer that one that just shuts up about it and gets on with the work. I have no need for empty virtue signalling. It does not make me feel better.

I've got even less use for empty virtue signalling than you. Are you suggesting however that you'd feel better if Trudeau cancelled the deal with Saudi Arabia and if the signal wasn't empty but was actually filled with real action?

My bet is that you'd suddenly get all pissy and noble about legal contracts along with becoming all flakey and weepy for poor General Dynamics and the hard-done by workers of London Ont.  They can go piss up a rope too.

Quote

 

The leftist liberal needs to feel better, to reconcile with their sense of personal guilt.

 

I don't know who you're talking about - this leftist merely wants our country's governance and actions in the world to mach our principles.  Enabling dictators ain't one of them.

Quote

Right wing conservatives do not need to feel better. We like ourselves just fine.

I can't stand you myself, because I think you suck just as bad as any Liberal.

Quote

I bet you'd really like this to descend into an all-out left versus right scrap, down in the dirt, complete with hair-pulling.

And shovels too.

Edited January 6, 2019 by eyeball

[Dougie93]

4 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Lying has served the climate change lobby as well,  so there is little advantage to be had with a war against "lying".

This has been asked before, but are you not prepared to accept the possibility (and reality) that even when well informed ("educated") about climate change, many people will still choose actions and behaviours that may or may not reduce GHG emissions ?

Find a different word to describe them in this culture war, because it is not "denier".

It's irrelevant anyways, the lines are hardened and entrenched, neither side is gaining many converts by hurling of invective, but the only real deniers are the lefty Climate Barbies, because at the end of the day, all their ineffective and disruptive centrally planned attempts are doomed to fail, with the side benefit of discrediting them writ large and driving the masses towards the right.  

[Dougie93]

The only real question now is how much damage are they going to do and whether or not we can can constrain the backlash at the threshold of classical liberal conservatism rather than full on fascistic blowback, as while nothing would warm the cockles of my heart more than to see the Climate Barbies hanging from the lampposts,  fascists are a collectivist centrally planned problem unto themselves.

Edited January 6, 2019 by Dougie93

[eyeball]

7 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Why are almost no nuclear reactors being built in the west? Why did Germany prematurely, and regrettably, shut down their nuclear power sources?

What kind of energy do they buy now, to replace that loss? 

Who are these people.

You didn't read your own link?

I have no problem with using nuclear power per se, but not while government and industry are left to regulate it and themselves. Not without the sort of oversight governments usually reserve for us in other words.  Butt-sniffs unfortunately won't have anything to do with this sort of arrangement.

You need to realize there is something far more important than ideology dividing a genuine progressive like myself from a run of the mill right-winger like you.  An asshole like Mao has a lot more in common with an asshole like Pinochet and where I'd shoot both of them you'd only shoot Mao.

I have no reason to believe all three of you wouldn't have me shot if you had the chance and for the very same reason. 

[bush_cheney2004]

7 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

It's irrelevant anyways, the lines are hardened and entrenched, neither side is gaining many converts by hurling of invective, but the only real deniers are the lefty Climate Barbies, because at the end of the day, all their ineffective and disruptive centrally planned attempts are doomed to fail, with the side benefit of discrediting them writ large and driving the masses towards the right.  

 

Agreed....they were doomed from the beginning, especially when doubling down on the pernicious wealth transfer and virtue signaling aspects of their climate change religion.   The larger mistake was to challenge the very notion of choice and self determination as underlying principles, with a far greater backlash than just the cost for a liter of petrol.    Several elections have now demonstrated that alarmist overreach can/will be rejected (e.g. Ontario, Washington state), along with violent protests in France.

[Dougie93]

10 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Agreed....they were doomed from the beginning, especially when doubling down on the pernicious wealth transfer and virtue signaling aspects of their climate change religion.   The larger mistake was to challenge the very notion of choice and self determination as underlying principles, with a far greater backlash than just the cost for a liter of petrol.    Several elections have now demonstrated that alarmist overreach can/will be rejected (e.g. Ontario, Washington state), along with violent protests in France.

As Salvoj Zizek says, all this virtue signalling is just a left which does not have the courage of its convictions and without the World Socialist Revolution, is simply going to crash and burn when the practical positive effects or rather total lack thereof comes to pass, which, that's already in progress, 147,000 French troops mobilized the other day to keep Macron from the guillotine, and damn rights we on the limited government right are lying in wait to exploit the inevitable blowback, the trick is just holding the line at Barry Goldwater without going off the deep end into Hitlerville.

Edited January 6, 2019 by Dougie93