Jimwd Posted June 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, betsy said: Then, don't fault the country that they've gone for refuge, for taking steps! A country is not obligated to accept anyone - a country has its own policy! I agree......Not obligated at all.No one is obligated to be compassionate. Neither are they obligated to make war and torture. But they do. Edited June 20, 2018 by Jimwd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted June 20, 2018 Report Share Posted June 20, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Jimwd said: Neither are they obligated to make war and torture. But they do. EH? What are you on about??? What's war and torture got to do with this??? The USA is definitely not obligated to listen to Trudeau - of all people - who lavished praises on dictators like Castro! And, China! All human rights violators! How many dissidents and civilians have they tortured???? Tiananmen Square ring a bell? Or, you weren't born at the time? Edited June 20, 2018 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimwd Posted June 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, betsy said: EH? What are you on about??? What's war and torture got to do with this??? The USA is definitely not obligated to listen to Trudeau - who lavished praises on dictators like Castro! And, China! All human rights violators! How many dissidents have they tortured???? You mean when Putin attacked america and trump grovelled asking to get him back in the G7. called americans killers too when confronted with Putins crimes?? Trump calling Kim Jong a man who kills his own people honourable and american football players peaceful protesting sons of bitches. Who do you think you are fooling? Maybe your self. Edited June 20, 2018 by Jimwd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted June 20, 2018 Report Share Posted June 20, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, paxrom said: I think the best alternative is to quickly deport all violators back . I'm talking detained, processed and released back in their home countries. All in the matter of less than 20 days. Obviously there's going to be push back on the ways to implement it(cost, human rights, etc...). I agree with this in theory; having an effective, but humane way of forcing people to apply through proper channels would be my ideal. But that also needs to come with a decision on how much of a moral obligation we (or the US) have to 'save' people at risk due to their own country's lack of adequate, honest and ethical law enforcement, or legal protections for women, children or gay people. Do we have an obligation to help political dissidents in totalitarian-type regimes? Or those fleeing war, whether civil war or otherwise? If, as a country, we (or the US) call ourselves more moral, more democratic, more humanitarian than the regimes that people flee from, does that obligate us to practice what we preach even with those that arrive at our borders looking for what we boast about? Edited June 20, 2018 by dialamah 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted June 20, 2018 Report Share Posted June 20, 2018 Well......Trump's supposed to sign an executive order so families won't get separated. That should stop all these incessant whinings! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimwd Posted June 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2018 25 minutes ago, betsy said: Right. FOCUS on why they left their own homeland! BECAUSE THEY FEEL ENDANGERED! Then, don't fault the country that they've gone for refuge, for taking steps! A country is not obligated to accept anyone - a country has its own policy! Anyone trying to get in a country for refuge should be willing to go through the country's policy! When you're desperate and begging, you don't have the luxury of dictating the standard you want! This ridiculous sense of entitlement is really out of whack! You guys don't understand real concept of desperation by people fleeing persecution and danger, if you're quibbling over the USA's policy of accepting ILLEGALS! Trudeau, and all of you so appalled by the treatment of these illegals should issue another invitation - take them all to Canada! Like I said History repeating itself. Jews were turned away and forced back to Hitler s camps by people like you using the exact same arguments. Um No thx,,, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Mayers Posted June 20, 2018 Report Share Posted June 20, 2018 2 minutes ago, betsy said: Well......Trump's supposed to sign an executive order so families won't get separated. That should stop all these incessant whinings! I just saw his speech on this. He was trying to 'apologize' (explain his actions) with clarity. I agreed with that explanation. It was more neutral and points to the fact of his approach: Be tough when there seems to be no other alternative. I'm trying to think of some analogy others can relate to. Here's one: You have an originally large mansion that has plenty of room and amenities out in a world that is relatively unable to afford the same. You invite others initially to come over and are willing to set up everyone with a guest room, host, and feed them regardless of their differences. At first, this was fine. But in time others hear that you are doing this and so it attracts those most desperate to come over and mingle unnoticed among all the other guests. In time though, the household begins to complain that their guests are starting to be a little more brazen and rude, taking what you offer in kindness to the extreme. You have some household members begin to turn some of these obvious desperadoes away because, while you care, you cannot sustain the overwhelming people beginning to exploit the confusion by CRASHING your parties. What is happening recently though is like if the desperate people coming over begin to bring their children over as a form of 'shield' defense mechanism used to pull at the heart strings of those family members who can't resist the cute, innocent children of these parents. Another kind of similar argument can be like those 'cat hoarders' that begin in a similar vein. Their intent may be good to allow these cats. But when you set a precedence that you accept any cat, they begin to take advantage and overrun the household without concern to the economic viability of the host. We cannot continue to accept some of these behaviors. Many who support letting these parents and others to use children as a defence, MAY agree that it is at least abusive of the person hoarding cats, that society should remove the cats and place a fine on the one keeping them. How is this not being noticed? Another point that I do not see that maybe someone else here might raise: WHY is the country of origins not being understood as the initiating ones at fault? Why are we not condemning the parents bringing these children over rather than finding some means to address the nature of the poorer classes from those countries to overpopulate? It is 'evolutionary' by design that where animals are suffering, they have more offspring quicker (like rabbits, say) to compensate for the limited resources by adding numbers as a means to increase the probability of persisting. Yet, we as intelligent beings know this is NOT a compassionate factor. That is, the very parents having more children may not realize this but they TOO are abusing the children in the sense that they are using more offspring they KNOW (as intelligent beings) makes more beings that must suffer at their expense. I'm not a Trump fan. But this emotional play with the children is itself a con. Trump's decision IS sometimes a necessary 'evil'....especially when you already have the same kind of people WITHIN your household who is suffering. Why appeal to the masses of emotively appealing beings when you cannot even feed those emotively appealing beings in isolation at home? The CROWD of people at once falsely makes it seem these people are in MORE desperate need to attend to when the real majority of those in similar situations are already in the country but can't be noticed for being distributed all around and unseen. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paxamericana Posted June 20, 2018 Report Share Posted June 20, 2018 Can we just stop bickering amongst ourselves. Lets focus on the best way forward. I think legislature should adopt policies that encourages legal immigration where possible. That being said, the ultimate issue is what kind of people should we allow in. We have to make sure they are people who can contribute to society and take care of themselves. So when they do come in they are able to take full advantage of our American dream and not be subject to exploitation, hence the emphasis on "legal". It is not reasonable to expect the US to take in everyone that come seeking assylum. Nor should we turn everyone away from their desparate flight. This is where the issue arise. Whilst they are in the purgatory stage of applying for asylum, what immigrant status should we allow? Should they be detained or set free and run the risk of never coming back for the asylum hearing. Or adopt policies that allow for a probationary period where they are allow to legally work and demonstrate their contributions like a try out. Policy needs enforcement to be effective. What tools do we have to allow ourself to enforce these policies. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted June 20, 2018 Report Share Posted June 20, 2018 45 minutes ago, betsy said: Well......Trump's supposed to sign an executive order so families won't get separated. That should stop all these incessant whinings! Well considering you fully support children being separated from their parents when seeking asylum then I expect you to mercilessly criticize Trump for this. Unless of course you just carry water for anything Trump devises in his Orange head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 20, 2018 Report Share Posted June 20, 2018 1 hour ago, dialamah said: ...If, as a country, we (or the US) call ourselves more moral, more democratic, more humanitarian than the regimes that people flee from, does that obligate us to practice what we preach even with those that arrive at our borders looking for what we boast about? No....legal immigration and refugees have limits....Illegals have far less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turningrite Posted June 20, 2018 Report Share Posted June 20, 2018 2 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Why would anyone expect Donald Trump to perform at a higher level than the best "moral" minds in Canada ? Time and place, man. Time and place. Why would you choose to repeat the past mistakes of others? By the way, I saw a report on a news site stating that Trump has now signed an order to end the policy that separated migrant parents from their children. I guess he couldn't take the heat he was facing both domestically and internationally. As for your comment on the asymmetry applicable to levels of compensation awarded different classes of victims in Canada, I tend to agree with you. It seems that those who pursue Charter claims tend to fare better than do those whose rights were violated prior to the Charter's existence. The assumption appears to be that the Charter generated a higher standard of accountability. I'm not sure I agree with this and I like many Canadians have serious concerns about some of the Trudeau government's compensation decisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BubberMiley Posted June 20, 2018 Report Share Posted June 20, 2018 2 hours ago, betsy said: The USA is definitely not obligated to listen to Trudeau - of all people - who lavished praises on dictators like Castro! And, China! All human rights violators! How many dissidents and civilians have they tortured???? Tiananmen Square ring a bell? Or, you weren't born at the time? Yeah, and Trump sucked up to Duterte because he seems to like murderous dictators too. The USA may have not been obligated to listen to Trudeau, but Trump sure changed his position quickly after Justin said it was wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 20, 2018 Report Share Posted June 20, 2018 24 minutes ago, turningrite said: Time and place, man. Time and place. Why would you choose to repeat the past mistakes of others? By the way, I saw a report on a news site stating that Trump has now signed an order to end the policy that separated migrant parents from their children. I guess he couldn't take the heat he was facing both domestically and internationally. Indeed....Canada's provinces felt no such heat, which is why the practice continued for DECADES...against Canadian citizens, not illegal immigrants. Time and place tells us that the best, "well meaning" liberal minds in Canada came up with very despicable solutions that lasted for generations, not weeks. Quote As for your comment on the asymmetry applicable to levels of compensation awarded different classes of victims in Canada, I tend to agree with you. It seems that those who pursue Charter claims tend to fare better than do those whose rights were violated prior to the Charter's existence. The assumption appears to be that the Charter generated a higher standard of accountability. I'm not sure I agree with this and I like many Canadians have serious concerns about some of the Trudeau government's compensation decisions. OK, but punitive and compensatory damages for sexual assault and homicide should not require sanction post Charter Rights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted June 20, 2018 Report Share Posted June 20, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Boges said: Well considering you fully support children being separated from their parents when seeking asylum then I expect you to mercilessly criticize Trump for this. Unless of course you just carry water for anything Trump devises in his Orange head. Then you misunderstand me. My stance on this is that the USA has every right to adopt her own policy regarding illegal aliens. I criticize how the anti-Trumps have been exploiting refugees - using children - just so to demonize Trump. I see that it is agenda-driven.....and I suspect there are anti-Trumps embedded with the refugees to stir things up. If the USA (Trump) decides to change their policy - they have every right to do so, too. Edited June 20, 2018 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted June 20, 2018 Report Share Posted June 20, 2018 2 minutes ago, betsy said: I criticize how the anti-Trumps have been exploiting refugees - using children - just so to demonize Trump. Funny how you don't criticize Trump for exploiting refugees - using children - to try to extort support for his political agenda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 20, 2018 Report Share Posted June 20, 2018 1 minute ago, betsy said: ...My stance on this is that the USA has every right to adopt her own policy regarding illegal aliens. I criticize how the anti-Trumps have been exploiting refugees - using children - just so to demonize Trump. I see that it is agenda-driven.....and I suspect there are anti-Trumps embedded with the refugees to stir things up. Agreed...the Trump haters seized upon this issue for political gain and 2018 midterms. They needed a victory after last year's disaster when the Democrats shut down the federal government for illegal immigrants, which hurt them badly. Quote If the USA (Trump) decides to change their policy - they have every right to do so, too. Yes, and that includes refusing to become an illegal immigrant / refugee camp as seen in Turkey and other nations. Trump still gets to keep the pressure on Congress to clean this mess up instead of kicking the can down the road yet again. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scribblet Posted June 20, 2018 Report Share Posted June 20, 2018 Where was Rachael Maddow when Obama did... and where are they when Trudeau did it http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-immigration-detention-children-1.3995461 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 20, 2018 Report Share Posted June 20, 2018 Just now, scribblet said: Where was Rachael Maddow when Obama did... and where are they when Trudeau did it http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-immigration-detention-children-1.3995461 But...but...it only matters when Trump does it ! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scribblet Posted June 20, 2018 Report Share Posted June 20, 2018 Of course it does, Trudeau can do no wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capricorn Posted June 20, 2018 Report Share Posted June 20, 2018 1 hour ago, BubberMiley said: The USA may have not been obligated to listen to Trudeau, but Trump sure changed his position quickly after Justin said it was wrong. This is hilarious. Insinuating that Trudeau is responsible for Trump issuing an Executive Order. Sheesh, the lengths some people will go to ascribe such power to the wimp that is Justin Trudeau. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scribblet Posted June 20, 2018 Report Share Posted June 20, 2018 1 minute ago, capricorn said: This is hilarious. Insinuating that Trudeau is responsible for Trump issuing an Executive Order. Sheesh, the lengths some people will go to ascribe such power to the wimp that is Justin Trudeau. Well, they did admit on the other forum that they are only here to troll. “In March of 1993, The United States Supreme Court issued a ruling in Flores vs Reno. (Yes, “That” Reno. Janet Reno, Bill Clinton’s first Attorney General who ordered that young Elian Gonzalez be torn from his parents arms while hiding in a Miami closet. You might remember the iconic photograph.) The Court decided that minors could not be incarcerated with the adults accompanying them across the United States border illegally. The decision was the result of a long dispute in how to best care for these children while the adults were detained for criminal proceedings. https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/91-905.ZS.html 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 20, 2018 Report Share Posted June 20, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, scribblet said: Well, they did admit on the other forum that they are only here to troll. “In March of 1993, The United States Supreme Court issued a ruling in Flores vs Reno. (Yes, “That” Reno. Janet Reno, Bill Clinton’s first Attorney General who ordered that young Elian Gonzalez be torn from his parents arms while hiding in a Miami closet. You might remember the iconic photograph.) Goallllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll !!!! Excellent post. Edited June 20, 2018 by bush_cheney2004 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scribblet Posted June 20, 2018 Report Share Posted June 20, 2018 Here's another one, guess who was President then https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/mexican-kids-held-for-months-as-punishment-for-border-crossing/2015/03/10/311d319a-b2f2-11e4-bf39-5560f3918d4b_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.282062338747 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted June 21, 2018 Report Share Posted June 21, 2018 21 hours ago, Jimwd said: Terrorizing children for political purposes is immoral. You should see how Child Protected Services treat them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimwd Posted June 21, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2018 11 minutes ago, GostHacked said: You should see how Child Protected Services treat them. Yea that was an information filled comment with credibility . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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