Taking children from their mothers. Abomination

[BubberMiley]

It's funny how on one hand, Trump supporters are all hard-boiled and like this zero tolerance policy for its get-tough approach. But they don't have the courage to own it and wind up lying about the Obama administration's policies or misrepresent Canada's policies to try to make it seem less unusual.  You can't exactly have it both ways.

[betsy]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

How about the pope ?

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/20/politics/pope-francis-trump-immigration-intl/index.html

Thankfully, this now means that Catholics have to choose between following the pope and following Trump.  We know how real Catholics will respond. 

What's new with the Pope?

The Pope's had always been against Trump policy.  Remember the wall?   During the presidential campaign?   The Pope rebuked Trump, and said he's not a Christian.   What's the result?  More Catholics voted for Trump.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/how-the-faithful-voted-a-preliminary-2016-analysis/ft_16-11-09_relig_exitpoll_religrace/

 

Most Catholics aren't dumb, you know.

 

 

Btw,  Italy's ended up with a populist government - inspired by Trump.  They turned away refugees, right?  What say the Pope to that?  That's right up on his own backyard, right?  Now's his chance!  The Pope ought to give the perfect  example by taking in the refugees in the Vatican.   Let's get environmental too.....you don't need that huge palace, especially if you're a servant of God.

 

Ooooooh.   Look what I found:

 

Proverbs 26:17

Whoever meddles in a quarrel not his own is like one who takes a passing dog by the ears.

 

1 Peter 4:15

But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a meddler.

 

 

Luke 12:13-14

Someone in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.” But he said to him, “Man, who made me a judge or arbitrator over you?”

 

 

Edited June 20, 2018 by betsy

[Jimwd]

2 hours ago, betsy said:

Tell that to Obama.

Obama didn't do that. Trump lied again.

 

You folks really believe your conman who paid 25 million  for fraud isn't lying to you. Stop and think for a minute. How would it matter if Obama did do it? How dos that justify Trump doing it?

Obama had an Iran deal.. According to your thinking  Trump should have an Iran deal. How come trump doesn't have an Iran deal? 

You folks really are not great in the critical thinking skills.

Balme Obama for everyone of your failures. Thats the sign of a loser not a winner.

[Jimwd]

2 hours ago, betsy said:

Taking children from their mothers. Abomination

 

Just like the way the government rips children from parents, huh?    "For the good of the children," of course.

Having been a foster parent, I've heard children crying for parents (some of whom will never see again, because they're being set up for adoption).  It is heartbreaking to see these children on their last visits with their parents.

Anyway, some kids cry for their fathers!

 

 

But of course, the real story behind what's happening in the USA border right now..........there's more to it, isn't it?  

 

A real refugee will be thankful to see their children having a safe place to sleep, and being fed balanced meals on a regular basis.....after all, they've already got past the most dangerous part of their journey.

It's so easy for those exploiting the misery of refugees who risked life and limb to flee from whatever it is that made them flee from their homeland.  Obviously, they felt the risk is well worth it.   So.....I don't understand why people are making such a big deal about children being kept in what they say are "cages."  

 

Surely, you wouldn't want them running off, unsupervised?

Lol.  Before you know it, the USA will be sued for missing children! Or, for children who were abducted by pedophiles!

Once they set foot at your doorstep - they become your problem, whether you like it or not.

 

 

Now you see why a wall is needed.

"Surely, you wouldn't want them running off, unsupervised?"

Um leave them with their mothers...

Russians built a wall in Germany.......Reagan ..said .."tear down that wall."

Russians love walls.... Donald Trump says build that wall.... and then is grovelling to get Putin back in G7

Edited June 20, 2018 by Jimwd

[betsy]

2 hours ago, Jimwd said:

"Surely, you wouldn't want them running off, unsupervised?"

Um leave them with their mothers...

 

Their mothers are illegally in the country.

That's the part of the risk they took when they opted to enter a country illegally.  They should be thankful that at least, in the USA,  their children are cared for.   So let's not be so ridiculously melodramatic over nothing.

The optics simply looks bad - but that's just the optics.

[paxamericana]

Alright everyone lets cut the bull sh*t

This is the real reason we have to separate them. 

"Following widespread criticism after photos of detained women and children, accompanied by testimonies of people being held for extended periods, a federal judge in Washington effectively ruled that asylum-seeking mothers could not be held for longer than 20 days, leading to what has been called a “catch and release” system where adults were released with GPS ankle monitors tracking their movements until their cases could be heard in court."

"This get out of jail free card for families and groups who pose as families has spread,” said Secretary of Homeland Security Kirstjen Nielsen. “The word of this has spread. The smugglers and traffickers know these loopholes better than our members of Congress. I'm sad to say that from October 2017 to this February, we have seen a staggering 315 percent increase in illegal aliens fraudulently using children to pose as family units to gain entry into this country. This must stop,” she said."

https://www.voanews.com/a/looking-for-truth-behind-separating-families-at-border/4444230.html
 

[BubberMiley]

12 minutes ago, betsy said:

The optics simply looks bad - but that's just the optics.

Yes, if you can just redefine the definition of "cage", blame the parents, and make up BS that this zero tolerance policy was in place during the Obama administration, the "optics" might improve.

[Jimwd]

19 minutes ago, betsy said:

Their mothers are illegally in the country.

That's the part of the risk they took when they opted to enter a country illegally.  They should be thankful that at least, in the USA,  their children are cared for.   So let's not be so ridiculously melodramatic over nothing.

The optics simply looks bad - but that's just the optics.

Permanent scarring of children through traumatic experiences is child abuse.

 

Spin  it any way you like.

[Hal 9000]

So, what is the alternative?  

 

[capricorn]

34 minutes ago, Hal 9000 said:

So, what is the alternative?  

 

As long as both sides hit each over the head with this matter, as reflected in this thread, no one will turn their attention in exploring alternatives. In the meantime, problems at the border escalate.

[dialamah]

14 hours ago, Jimwd said:

Terrorizing children for political purposes is immoral.

I agree that this particular situation is particularly unnecessary; the Trump administration could do the same as the Obama administration but they choose not to.  Trumptards who defend this choice are equally immoral.  Separating kids from addicted parents or abusive parents or even occassionally from illegal immigrant parents is not even in the ballpark of what Trump decided to do here.  If I believed in God, I would say that Trumptards will have a lot to answer for on Judgement Day. 

[paxamericana]

5 minutes ago, capricorn said:

As long as both sides hit each over the head with this matter, as reflected in this thread, no one will turn their attention in exploring alternatives. In the meantime, problems at the border escalate.

I think the best alternative is to quickly deport all violators back . I'm talking detained, processed and released back in their home countries.  All in the matter of less than 20 days. Obviously there's going to be push back on the ways to implement it(cost, human rights, etc...). 

[capricorn]

2 minutes ago, paxrom said:

I think the best alternative is to quickly deport all violators back . I'm talking detained, processed and released back in their home countries.  All in the matter of less than 20 days. Obviously there's going to be push back on the ways to implement it(cost, human rights, etc...). 

I like where you're coming from. What about the kids? AFAICS that's what all the screaming and foot stomping is about and 20 days spent away from family (or those pretending to be parents), will still be decried as cruel.

[paxamericana]

3 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I agree that this particular situation is particularly unnecessary; the Trump administration could do the same as the Obama administration but they choose not to.  Trumptards who defend this choice are equally immoral.  Separating kids from addicted parents or abusive parents or even occassionally from illegal immigrant parents is not even in the ballpark of what Trump decided to do here.  If I believed in God, I would say that Trumptards will have a lot to answer for on Judgement Day. 

So you're a pro catch and release person. Because that was the Obama administration's policy. That's only adding more fuel to the fire. This problem requires a bi-partisan solution. Other than paying mexico or another country to house these people I don't think a solution does exist in the short run. You need economic stability and security for the long term solution. 

[capricorn]

Looks like Trump is taking action to stop separating children from illegal migrants. Nothing on the internet news yet. This would be good news all around.

[bush_cheney2004]

6 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

This is an example of the "Tu quoque" fallacy.  Canada's moral failings are irrelevant to the point.

 

Hardly, as it clearly demonstrates that the government(s) in Canada came up with a far more pernicious version of family separation that lasted for a lifetime...against citizens !

Trump's policy could hardly be expected to be better than the moral (and smug) benchmark that is Canada !

[turningrite]

6 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

This is an example of the "Tu quoque" fallacy.  Canada's moral failings are irrelevant to the point.

You might have provided a link for or online description of the term "tu quogue fallacy," which in common discourse is generally referenced as an 'ad hominem' argument. I found this definition online:

argumentum ad hominem tu quoque: (also known as: “you too” fallacy, hypocrisy, personal inconsistency) Description: Claiming the argument is flawed by pointing out that the one making the argument is not acting consistently with the claims of the argument.

I think the point bush_cheney2004 is raising should be examined at face value. As was pointed out on a Canadian newscast I watched yesterday evening, Canadian policy, particularly where residential schools and the '60s scoop' were concerned, did involve forcibly removing children from their parents. I think the point you are trying to make is that this doesn't in its own right justify the events currently taking place in the United States. I don't think bush_cheney2004's position can properly be described as a tu quoque fallacy. Rather, I believe it falls into the category of being tangential to the debate occurring about Trump's current policy. One can, and perhaps must, examine Trump's detention policy (where children are concerned) on its own merits or demerits rather than by reference to events elsewhere or at a different time that in the current context are viewed as having been wrong. Were bush_cheney2004's position to be properly argued to its full extent, one would have to conclude that any analogy with Canada's past misdeeds actually renders Trump's policy morally insupportable.

Edited June 20, 2018 by turningrite

[betsy]

2 hours ago, Jimwd said:

Permanent scarring of children through traumatic experiences is child abuse.

 

Therefore, these parents are guilty of abusing their children! 

Children should not be dragged through an arduous, dangerous journey.....what more, to be placed at the mercy of unscrupulous human smugglers!

 

 

[Jimwd]

7 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Hardly, as it clearly demonstrates that the government(s) in Canada came up with a far more pernicious version of family separation that lasted for a lifetime...against citizens !

Trump's policy could hardly be expected to be better than the moral (and smug) benchmark that is Canada !

Yae that would be nonsense . your deflection from your fascist president is noted.

[betsy]

58 minutes ago, capricorn said:

Looks like Trump is taking action to stop separating children from illegal migrants. Nothing on the internet news yet. This would be good news all around.

Let's see what the Dems will do to undermine that.

[Jimwd]

Just now, betsy said:

Therefore, these parents are guilty of abusing their children! 

Children should not be dragged through an arduous, dangerous journey.....what more, to be placed at the mercy of unscrupulous human smugglers!

 

 

Living in a place where their children's lives are threatened  and not  trying to make a better life for them  by escaping would be .....um...like you. 

Jews running from danger in Germany were turned away by people ummm like you.

[Michael Hardner]

7 minutes ago, turningrite said:

1) I think the point you are trying to make is that this doesn't in its own right justify the events currently taking place in the United States.

2) I don't think bush_cheney2004's position can properly be described as a tu quoque fallacy.

3) Rather, I believe it falls into the category of being tangential to the debate occurring about Trump's current policy.  One can, and perhaps must, examine Trump's detention policy (where children are concerned) on its own merits or demerits rather than by reference to events elsewhere or at a different time that in the current context are viewed as having been wrong.

4) Were bush_cheney2004's argument properly argued to its full extent, one would have to conclude that any analogy with Canada's past misdeeds actually renders Trump's policy morally insupportable.

1) Yes.

2) It's exactly that.  Check out the example in the link.

3) Yes.  Yes.

4) Yes.

 

[Jimwd]

4 minutes ago, betsy said:

Let's see what the Dems will do to undermine that.

Obstruct.? Like the birther crowd who set an all-time american record for filibustering under Obama.... all time record.in American history./...... think about that..

[bush_cheney2004]

13 minutes ago, turningrite said:

.... Were bush_cheney2004's position to be properly argued to its full extent, one would have to conclude that any analogy with Canada's past misdeeds actually renders Trump's policy morally insupportable.

 

But that is exactly the point....previous (and current) governments in Canada pursued such policies on a larger scale against Canadian citizens without national or international outcry.    First Nations and Metis had no voice in the matter.  Only now are settlements being reached for pennies on the dollar compared to single Canadians who've gotten $10.5 million each.

Why would anyone expect Donald Trump to perform at a higher level than the best "moral" minds in Canada ?

[betsy]

17 minutes ago, Jimwd said:

Living in a place where their children's lives are threatened  and not  trying to make a better life for them  by escaping would be .....um...like you. 

Jews running from danger in Germany were turned away by people ummm like you.

Right.  FOCUS on why they left their own homeland!  BECAUSE THEY FEEL ENDANGERED!

Then, don't fault the country that they've gone for refuge, for taking steps!  A country is not obligated to accept anyone - a country has its own policy!  Anyone trying to get in a country for refuge should be willing to go through the country's policy! 

When you're desperate and begging, you don't have the luxury of dictating the standard you want! 

 

 

This ridiculous sense of entitlement is really out of whack!   You guys don't understand real concept of desperation by people fleeing persecution and danger, if you're quibbling over the USA's policy of accepting ILLEGALS!

 

Trudeau, and all of you so appalled by the treatment of these illegals should issue another invitation - take them all to Canada!

 

Edited June 20, 2018 by betsy