Banning the Combustion engine

[ZenOps]

Since Germany has decided to do it by 2030, should Canada consider it on a longer timeframe?

[Wilber]

it's non binding and only applies to cars. It doesn't apply to trucks, busses, agriculture, aviation and marine uses.

As for Canada, probably at some time but it will be much more difficult to do. Germany is a much smaller country with a much greater population that can support a much better public transportation system. Even though they are getting much better, range is still a big issue for EV's in Canada, particularly during winter. It will happen eventually though.

[Boges]

How about build the infrastructure for EVs first? 

[Wilber]

12 minutes ago, Boges said:

How about build the infrastructure for EVs first? 

It is slowly happening in cities, the place where EV's make the most sense. But even if the infrastructure is there, if I want to drive to Calgary in a day, I don't want to spend four hours recharging my car while en route when I already have a car that can do it with one 10 minute stop to refuel. That's why I think cars like the Volt or plug in hybrids make more sense for a lot of Canadians.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Wilber

[ZenOps]

The infrastructure is sort of there.  My parking lot has a 110 volt standard outlet from the 1970's which was used for block heaters, its begging to be used (especially in 3 cents per kwh Calgary)

The only thing missing are the fast charge stations, but by fast, its still about an hour charge before you make it to the next fast charge station if you are doing a long haul trip.  I can imagine that a supercharging station is about the least expensive thing to build and maintain ever, its a parking lot with electrical lines that don't even need tanks or refilling like a gas station does.

I could see places like Walmart putting them in their parking lots, maybe drop a $1 loonie for a 50 kilometer fast charge topup? Maybe even free if you show the barcode off a minimum purchase instore?

https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/supercharger?redirect=no

An 8 hour overnight trickle charge at 1575 watts on that standard NEMA plug should go 100 kilometers roughly.

Edited April 12, 2017 by ZenOps

[Boges]

4 minutes ago, ZenOps said:

The infrastructure is sort of there.  My parking lot has a 110 volt standard outlet from the 1970's which was used for block heaters, its begging to be used (especially in 3 cents per kwh Calgary)

The only thing missing are the fast charge stations, but by fast, its still about an hour charge before you make it to the next fast charge station if you are doing a long haul trip.

An 8 hour overnight trickle charge at 1575 watts on that standard NEMA plug should go 100 kilometers roughly.

What about people that live in buildings and don't have access to an electrical outlet in their parking spot? 

[DogOnPorch]

3 minutes ago, Boges said:

What about people that live in buildings and don't have access to an electrical outlet in their parking spot? 

 

Let them eat cake?

[blackbird]

No, I don't think it is a good idea.  First, I don't believe in man-made climate change.  Google Ten Reasons Climate Change is a Hoax.

Secondly, fossil fuels will be needed for the forseeable future.  There is no viable alternative.  Canada has a huge geography where many Canadians live in small towns or villages scattered over this vast country.  Many people must travel long distances for various reasons.  Electric cars are generally far more expensive than gas or diesel powered cars.  Many people must drive trucks for their jobs and electric is not a viable option of trucks because of the amount of power trucks require.  The main reason I oppose it is the high cost of electric cars and the inability of being able to drive long distances without stopping frequently for long periods of time to re-charge the batteries.

We have a vast fossil fuel resources in the ground in Canada and we need to find ways to get pipelines built to be able to sell it to foreign markets.  Right now Canada is losing billions of dollars because of the inaction and incompetence of the govenments of Canada.

[Wilber]

1 hour ago, Boges said:

What about people that live in buildings and don't have access to an electrical outlet in their parking spot? 

Good point, EV's will be as much about the infrastructure as the vehicles, is the same for IC vehicles.

 

No more gas stations in downtown Vancouver

[ZenOps]

I'm pretty sure you can just spend a day to dig a trench and run a wire from a fuse box on the inside of the building or you can pull down a fresh line from the pole, its not rocket science.  If your house has a big round plug for the clothes dryer (usually on what is called a double fuse) that is the connector that will allow quicker charging than the standard socket.

The reason that I like the idea in Calgary is that I know that the 3 cent per kwh power generated is coming from natural gas power plants that have been upgraded from 32% to 60% efficiency over the last decade.  So technically, its still burning carbon, just all the carbon is being burned outside the populated areas.

Benefits:

Reduces local smog

Silent motors, silent streets

Hella cheap (combustion engine is 21% efficient at maximum, the rest is lost as heat)  In Calgary, should be a solid 10x less expensive than gasoline.

No maintainance.  Electric cars have about 18 moving parts, manfacturers are debating whether or not they should include lifetime warranties.  Combustion engine has 2,000 moving parts and various deadly liquids - all of which must be kept in a fragile equilibrium or it needs to be repaired.

Hate to say it:  Burning natural gas to extract oilsands, distribute it by the millions of barrels a day, refine it, then burn it seems very redundant when you can just burn the natural gas and then push electrons over an electric grid.

Edited April 12, 2017 by ZenOps

[dre]

3 hours ago, Boges said:

What about people that live in buildings and don't have access to an electrical outlet in their parking spot? 

What about Albanian sheppards that are allergic to wool?

[Boges]

1 minute ago, dre said:

What about Albanian sheppards that are allergic to wool?

That's a helluva Non Sequitur. Lots of people, especially in large cities, live in condo and apartment buildings. I do. Even if I wanted an EV I couldn't have one. So the Condo Corp would be forced to install outlets in every parking spot before you could pass a law making banning ICVs. 

[Queenmandy85]

We should be rebuilding the rail system in Canada, powered by nuclear generated electricity. Western Canada is the Saudi Arabia of uranium and, while we do not possess the thorium resources of some other countries, we do have sufficient reserves and the Candu reactor can be converted to thorium. There will always be a need for petroleum but burning it is wasteful and catastrophic for the planet. Right now we are virtually giving oil away. Why not hang on to it until the rest of the world has used up their reserves and we can charge what ever we want.

[Thinkinoutsidethebox]

There may an alternative to diesel powered heavy trucks and equipment  https://nikolamotor.com/  .

We all know government's track records of making laws and goals that they may or may not be able to enforce (Alberta's no deficit law comes to mind...).

Natural gas and electricity prices will go through the roof soon, it's all a question of supply and demand and just like gasoline prices the rates will spike at the most inconvenient times due to any one or more creative ideas company execs can dream up.

EVs will come with their own problems (and there are far more than eighteen moving pieces by the way).

Edited April 13, 2017 by Thinkinoutsidethebox

[-1=e^ipi]

Don't ban things. Tax CO2 instead.

[PIK]

21 hours ago, blackbird said:

No, I don't think it is a good idea.  First, I don't believe in man-made climate change.  Google Ten Reasons Climate Change is a Hoax.

Secondly, fossil fuels will be needed for the forseeable future.  There is no viable alternative.  Canada has a huge geography where many Canadians live in small towns or villages scattered over this vast country.  Many people must travel long distances for various reasons.  Electric cars are generally far more expensive than gas or diesel powered cars.  Many people must drive trucks for their jobs and electric is not a viable option of trucks because of the amount of power trucks require.  The main reason I oppose it is the high cost of electric cars and the inability of being able to drive long distances without stopping frequently for long periods of time to re-charge the batteries.

We have a vast fossil fuel resources in the ground in Canada and we need to find ways to get pipelines built to be able to sell it to foreign markets.  Right now Canada is losing billions of dollars because of the inaction and incompetence of the govenments of Canada.

But that is how liberals think, screw the rurals they are conservative anyways. Keep the cities happy your are in.

[Wilber]

I do believe in man made climate change but I also realize there won't be a one size fits all solution to our transportation needs.

[dre]

39 minutes ago, Wilber said:

I do believe in man made climate change but I also realize there won't be a one size fits all solution to our transportation needs.

There doesn't need to be, and we don't need to ban anything. Electric motors are far superior to gas engines... even if they can be adopted as daily hoppers around cities that will put a huge dent in emissions. All thats required is for costs to come down a bit. Hybrids can handle the market for people with range concerns. I dont know anyone who has bought a focus that wouldnt rather have a prius... They just cost a bit too much still. That will change.

I think the electric revolution will arrive soon without the government having to do all that much.

[bush_cheney2004]

Meanwhile, back in the real world, Canadians are buying fewer passenger cars and more SUVs, vans, and trucks, very few of which are EVs:

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/econ58a-eng.htm

[Wilber]

1 hour ago, dre said:

There doesn't need to be, and we don't need to ban anything. Electric motors are far superior to gas engines... even if they can be adopted as daily hoppers around cities that will put a huge dent in emissions. All thats required is for costs to come down a bit. Hybrids can handle the market for people with range concerns. I dont know anyone who has bought a focus that wouldnt rather have a prius... They just cost a bit too much still. That will change.

I think the electric revolution will arrive soon without the government having to do all that much.

Electric motors are great but when it comes to energy storage devices, batteries still suck compared to a fuel tank.

 

I would rather have a Focus RS than a Prius any day. Hybrids are fine as long as they are sporty and speedy.

 

 

Edited April 13, 2017 by Wilber

[-1=e^ipi]

17 hours ago, dre said:

I think the electric revolution will arrive soon without the government having to do all that much.

Would happen faster if we didn't have incompetent politicians like Wynne in Ontario doubling or tripling energy prices.

[Bonam]

9 hours ago, -1=e^ipi said:

Would happen faster if we didn't have incompetent politicians like Wynne in Ontario doubling or tripling energy prices.

Not really. Outside Ontario, no one cares about Ontario. The "electric revolution" will be spearheaded by companies in other countries and will see adoption in other countries, long before Ontario gets on the bandwagon. 

[ironstone]

On 4/12/2017 at 1:41 PM, blackbird said:

No, I don't think it is a good idea.  First, I don't believe in man-made climate change.  Google Ten Reasons Climate Change is a Hoax.

Secondly, fossil fuels will be needed for the forseeable future.  There is no viable alternative.  Canada has a huge geography where many Canadians live in small towns or villages scattered over this vast country.  Many people must travel long distances for various reasons.  Electric cars are generally far more expensive than gas or diesel powered cars.  Many people must drive trucks for their jobs and electric is not a viable option of trucks because of the amount of power trucks require.  The main reason I oppose it is the high cost of electric cars and the inability of being able to drive long distances without stopping frequently for long periods of time to re-charge the batteries.

We have a vast fossil fuel resources in the ground in Canada and we need to find ways to get pipelines built to be able to sell it to foreign markets.  Right now Canada is losing billions of dollars because of the inaction and incompetence of the govenments of Canada.

John Robson will be doing a documentary on climate change that should be very interesting.

http://www.thejohnrobson.com/

Just doing a quick search on how long it takes to charge an electric car tells me that it can vary from 30 mins to as long as 12 hrs.Given that all the inherent problems with electric cars have not been worked out yet,I hope it's a very long time before the combustion engine get's banned in Canada.I too would like to see more development of our oil resources.

[Thinkinoutsidethebox]

On 4/13/2017 at 10:24 AM, bush_cheney2004 said:

Meanwhile, back in the real world, Canadians are buying fewer passenger cars and more SUVs, vans, and trucks, very few of which are EVs:

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/econ58a-eng.htm

Funny how that works eh?

Let's tax CO2 emissions and in the same sentence let's double petroleum output...

Reducing emissions and  carbon output is so far on the back burner they couldn't reach it with a crane. 

[ZenOps]

Argument that 8 hour charges aren't a big deal for most people:  Everyone needs to sleep, and the vast majority of drivers won't be some place so far away from a standard socket that they won't be able to trickle charge overnight.  It would be a good idea to throw a fiver or a ten to a farmer though if you happen to need to beg to use his power socket because you forgot to top up the 215? mile battery (Tesla 3) before you started the trip.  Its generally assumed that if you sleep anywhere near normal (and don't forget to plug in wherever you may be) you will always wake up to 215 miles of initial capacity.  You have to think of fueling as *everywhere* instead of just gas stations when you need it.

https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/models-charging#/calculator

And don't forget to try and hookup to a NEMA 14-30 or NEMA 14-50 type plug (refridgerator, clothes dryer or electric stove type) plug if possible.

Even a gas station uses electricity to run the station itself, or at the very least a couple generators to run things like lights and air compressors even in the most remote areas of the world.

I mean you *can* use it as a cross country vehicle, but that's not going to be the core buyers of it on the first 500,000 or so they sell this year.

Edited April 16, 2017 by ZenOps