America under President Trump

Wilber · February 8, 2017

I'm not itching to call you anything and there are also things in every culture that I'm not keen on including my own, but I just wonder why you have such a generalized attitude toward Muslims, like they are some kind of unvarying monolithic group.

dialamah · February 8, 2017

22 minutes ago, Hal 9000 said:

Not so with muslims, bringing in muslims is simply building entire communities of people who outright hate our way of life.

See, that's just so wrong. I've talked to a lot of Muslims in the city where I live and they are very integrated and appreciate our life. They express concern about their home countries, and many wish they could bring their families here or perhaps export our culture home. Yes, they value their faith but do not see it in any way contradictory to Canadian society.

This is not to say that there aren't Muslims who've come to Canada and find it objectionable, who believe they'll be contaminated by our overly free society, but I really don't think they are the majority.

bush_cheney2004 · February 8, 2017

Muslims are now safer in Trump's America than in Trudeau's Canada.

kactus · February 8, 2017

9 hours ago, betsy said:

Depends on the kind of immigrant you take.

Furthermore, 1904 isn't 2017. Today, Laurier would even likely say, "extreme vetting is a must!"

The moment we start talking about "type" is the moment that some as has already been expressed discriminately against a whole group/ nation. Thankfully, one hopes the days KKK/ facism are over. One hopes...

Argus · February 8, 2017

2 hours ago, Omni said:

Here is just a little.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/economy-lab/for-canada-immigration-is-a-key-to-prosperity/article14711281/

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-politics/andrew-coyne-increased-immigration-is-good-for-canada-and-the-reasons-arent-only-economic

http://www.readersdigest.ca/features/heart/why-canada-needs-more-immigrants-now/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_impact_of_immigration_to_Canada

You didn't actually read any of these, did you? None of them shows us any statistical evidence, nor indeed, ANY evidence that immigration is good for our economy. The first makes the case that lots of new people produce lots of economic activity. Sure, but it also produces more demand. This is an argument we've had before. An extra pie at the table doesn't give you more to eat if a whole bunch more people sit down to share it. All it does is make you feel crowded. Coyne talks about those wack jobs who want to increase our population to 100 million. And the best he can say is it will increase our clout in the world. Really? Then you have the Readers Digest cite from before 2011 since it talks about upcoming legislation on immigration. It bemoans an impending labour shortage, except I've put multiple cites out proving there is no impending labour shortage.

You need to do better than give other people's opinions if you want to show actual evidence.

Argus · February 8, 2017

2 hours ago, Wilber said:

Why so hung up on Muslims? Around here Sikhs and Chinese seem to make up a large proportion of immigrants, not Muslims. How about them?

Sikhs are okay. Indian immigrants tend to do well in Canada. Muslims and Chinese not so much. Immigrants from the middle east and China are among the least economically successful immigrants as a group. That's on top of the social problems they present and their slowness to assimilate.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Argus

Argus · February 8, 2017

1 hour ago, Wilber said:

I'm not itching to call you anything and there are also things in every culture that I'm not keen on including my own, but I just wonder why you have such a generalized attitude toward Muslims, like they are some kind of unvarying monolithic group.

There are almost 50 Muslim countries around the world, widely separated. Yet they all have distinct similarities. None even make the pretense that they respect other religions equally. None even make the pretense they treat women equally. None, of course, even allow homosexuality. It's illegal, and in some cases punishable by death.

And there is very, very little apparent interest from their people to change any of that.

GostHacked · February 8, 2017

On 2/1/2017 at 4:26 PM, Topaz said:

Newsflash... Trump has been nominate for the Nobel Peace prize, think he has a chance? http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/donald-trump-nominated-for-nobel-peace-prize-for-vigorous-peace-through-strength-ideology-a6850636.html

If Obama can get one .. so can Trump!

Argus · February 8, 2017

2 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

If Obama can get one .. so can Trump!

Obama was the Great Black Hope, at the time.

Trump is... not so much.

GostHacked · February 8, 2017

17 minutes ago, Argus said:

Obama was the Great Black Hope, at the time.

Trump is... not so much.

After 8 years of Obama people are still hoping for change. However Trump is doing what he said he would do. I may not agree with what he is doing, but I can't fault a guy for following through on his promises. All that within the first couple weeks too!

BubberMiley · February 8, 2017

5 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

After 8 years of Obama people are still hoping for change. However Trump is doing what he said he would do. I may not agree with what he is doing, but I can't fault a guy for following through on his promises. All that within the first couple weeks too!

Is it really fulfilling promises if it's done so incompetently the courts prevent it from ever happening? Can you fault a guy for completely forsaking his promises, like he did when he promised to tackle Wall Street corruption and then eliminated the few regulations that were in place instead? All within the first couple weeks too!

Edited February 8, 2017 by BubberMiley

Topaz · February 8, 2017

On 2017-02-06 at 3:02 PM, Argus said:

Has any previous US government murdered its political enemies and critics like Putin does?

First of all, WE don't know for sure that what Putin did but we do know what the US governments have done by reading books written by former CIA agents and BTW Reagan survived were Kennedy didn't.

Hal 9000 · February 8, 2017

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

See, that's just so wrong. I've talked to a lot of Muslims in the city where I live and they are very integrated and appreciate our life. They express concern about their home countries, and many wish they could bring their families here or perhaps export our culture home. Yes, they value their faith but do not see it in any way contradictory to Canadian society.

This is not to say that there aren't Muslims who've come to Canada and find it objectionable, who believe they'll be contaminated by our overly free society, but I really don't think they are the majority.

I know a few muslims personally, and I do like them on an individual basis. However, that changes with numbers. You can look at any group and see individuals and get along with certain ones, but when you get the numbers all that changes. You can directly correlate the problems with the numbers - as we've seen in Europe. Once our percentages change a little more and the muslims start to take over "their own" neighbourhoods, have enough for actual demonstrations, enough that they no longer need to associate with us, then the problems will mount.

The chinese were mentioned earlier, so I'll give the example of Vancouver; there was a time in Vancouver when the chinese and the caucasians got along great and associated with each other regularly, now the chinese are outright rude to whites, telling them to get out of "their city", that we "don't belong here", many refuse to even bother with english, they buy up complete buildings and neighbourhoods, signs are only chinese in some areas. Vancouver is a microcosm of what is gonna happen to Canada.

Michael Hardner · February 9, 2017

1 hour ago, Hal 9000 said:

1) I know a few muslims personally, and I do like them on an individual basis. However, that changes with numbers. You can look at any group and see individuals and get along with certain ones, but when you get the numbers all that changes.

2) You can directly correlate the problems with the numbers - as we've seen in Europe. Once our percentages change a little more and the muslims start to take over "their own" neighbourhoods, have enough for actual demonstrations, enough that they no longer need to associate with us, then the problems will mount.

3) The chinese were mentioned earlier, so I'll give the example of Vancouver; there was a time in Vancouver when the chinese and the caucasians got along great and associated with each other regularly, now the chinese are outright rude to whites, telling them to get out of "their city", that we "don't belong here", many refuse to even bother with english, they buy up complete buildings and neighbourhoods, signs are only chinese in some areas. Vancouver is a microcosm of what is gonna happen to Canada.

1) Funny - with most people it goes the other way.

2) "Numbers" are never given objectively, unless you're reading academic research which you're not. You are actually reading *stories*.

3) Here you're *telling* stories.

Sorry, but immigration is the way to go. You can't put up walls to keep people AND money out. They seem to go together and if you have some numbers that say otherwise, do send them to Trump's people and they might give them to him.

Hudson Jones · February 9, 2017

2 hours ago, GostHacked said:

After 8 years of Obama people are still hoping for change. However Trump is doing what he said he would do. I may not agree with what he is doing, but I can't fault a guy for following through on his promises. All that within the first couple weeks too!

In some ways, he is following up on what he said he would do. However, the whole "draining the swamp" thing isn't really happening. The appointments he has made are contrary to what he had said he would do.

Hudson Jones · February 9, 2017

2 hours ago, Hal 9000 said:

I know a few muslims personally, and I do like them on an individual basis. However, that changes with numbers. You can look at any group and see individuals and get along with certain ones, but when you get the numbers all that changes.

Your understanding of Muslims looks to be very superficial. If you actually really knew Muslims, you would know that religion is not a deciding factor as to who they are. Muslims come from many different cultures. For example, a Saudi Muslim is much different than an Indonesian Muslim or a Turkish Muslim or an Iranian Muslim. Even within the countries, value of the people are different based on where they live, how they were raised and who they are as individuals.

Your attempt to explain 1.5 billion people based on a religious affiliation is an immature way of thinking.

Hudson Jones · February 9, 2017

2 hours ago, Hal 9000 said:

The chinese were mentioned earlier, so I'll give the example of Vancouver; there was a time in Vancouver when the chinese and the caucasians got along great and associated with each other regularly, now the chinese are outright rude to whites, telling them to get out of "their city", that we "don't belong here", many refuse to even bother with english, they buy up complete buildings and neighbourhoods, signs are only chinese in some areas. Vancouver is a microcosm of what is gonna happen to Canada.

I live in Vancouver and as a Caucasian who sees the Chinese (and other Eastern Asian nationalities) often, I find your statement to be completely inaccurate.

Hal 9000 · February 9, 2017

49 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1) Funny - with most people it goes the other way.

2) "Numbers" are never given objectively, unless you're reading academic research which you're not. You are actually reading *stories*.

3) Here you're *telling* stories.

Sorry, but immigration is the way to go. You can't put up walls to keep people AND money out. They seem to go together and if you have some numbers that say otherwise, do send them to Trump's people and they might give them to him.

1) No, the bigger the group, the more they'll impose their way. Whites did it to the Indians, the french keep trying in Quebec - and when they have the numbers, they'll get what they want. Vancouver is more and more chinese every day. Any group will do this whether it be race, gender, religion - it's pure human nature.

2) Really, so how come race/religion relations have gotten progressively worse in every single european country?

3) When was the last time you were in Vancouver/Richmond? I guarantee you, the chinese treat white people like foreigners.

4) Immigration might be just fine, but were not taking the best people as far as refugees, we're taking people who have no education, don't speak english and don't care about our culture - and never will. Go check out London if you want some reference.

Hal 9000 · February 9, 2017

Whites are a minority (or at best 50/50) in richmond and in Vancouver, they'll be a minority in about 10-12 years. With that comes a significant culture change. You'd be extremely naive to think that the Chinese with leave their belief system in china. Most of you will cheer on the change, but it should concern the enviro crowd.

Michael Hardner · February 9, 2017

11 minutes ago, Hal 9000 said:

1) No, the bigger the group, the more they'll impose their way. Whites did it to the Indians, the french keep trying in Quebec - and when they have the numbers, they'll get what they want. Vancouver is more and more chinese every day. Any group will do this whether it be race, gender, religion - it's pure human nature.

2) Really, so how come race/religion relations have gotten progressively worse in every single european country?

3) When was the last time you were in Vancouver/Richmond? I guarantee you, the chinese treat white people like foreigners.

4) Immigration might be just fine, but were not taking the best people as far as refugees, we're taking people who have no education, don't speak english and don't care about our culture - and never will. Go check out London if you want some reference.

1) There's no evidence of that. Whites doing it to the Indians is not an analogy. The French doing it to.... the French ? Did the Irish, the Germans, the Italians, the Ukranians, the Blacks impose 'their way' ?

2) You're talking about a lot of complex factors at play here and simplifying it.

3) I work with 80% Asian/Chinese background people. Also they are Canadian.

4) Like all of our ancestors.

Again, these are all narratives. I would trust academics to examine such things and provide conclusions, and they have.

Sorry, but "The Chinese are taking over Vancouver !" doesn't work for me, in terms of intellectual rigor.

But I'll leave you to your opinion and let's just move on - I don't think we'll be convincing each other here today.

Michael Hardner · February 9, 2017

A side note on the questions of culture and the Trumpian phenomenon:

I reject the idea that these things can't be discussed. I'm interested in such topics also. The problem is that they're never discussed in an objective enough way in a public forum, mostly because those who want to discuss it most come to the discussion with an agenda.

Hal 9000 · February 9, 2017

7 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1) There's no evidence of that. Whites doing it to the Indians is not an analogy. The French doing it to.... the French ? Did the Irish, the Germans, the Italians, the Ukranians, the Blacks impose 'their way' ?

2) You're talking about a lot of complex factors at play here and simplifying it.

3) I work with 80% Asian/Chinese background people. Also they are Canadian.

4) Like all of our ancestors.

Again, these are all narratives. I would trust academics to examine such things and provide conclusions, and they have.

Sorry, but "The Chinese are taking over Vancouver !" doesn't work for me, in terms of intellectual rigor.

But I'll leave you to your opinion and let's just move on - I don't think we'll be convincing each other here today.

3) Their culture dictates their belief system - just because they were born in Canada doesn't change that.

And, I don't give a s*** what "works for you".

Michael Hardner · February 9, 2017

Yes, it does change that. Where you're born actually matters, I'm surprised I have to tell you that.

Hal 9000 · February 9, 2017

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Yes, it does change that. Where you're born actually matters, I'm surprised I have to tell you that.

Maybe after a couple of generations, but not if you're incorporating your own culture. Again, have a look at Muslim neighbourhoods in London or Paris or chinese neighbourhoods in Vancouver.