Why is criticizm of Israel considered Anti-semitism?

[GostHacked]

The crux of this thread is to determine why criticism of Israel is viewed as anti-semetic. No matter what the criticism is, this is the usual 'go to' bit in order to shout down and shut down critical views that have total merit in their opposition to some of the things Israel does?

Now this thread is not about WHAT Israel has done. We've beaten the crap out of that dead horse before it was even born. I want to deal specifically with the notion that ANY criticism is viewed as anti-semitism.

I thought it would be better to create a new thread for this specific topic. Trolls, ranters, idiots, partisans and the ilk need not participate.

[Bonam]

Why is criticizm of Israel considered Anti-semitism?

Simple answer: it's not. There are many valid criticisms of Israel, as there are of any country. I don't support expansion of settlements in the West Bank and think this policy is a mistake and counterproductive to the goal of peace, for example. I also think Israel's policies regarding exemptions from work and military service for its most religiously conservative citizens is self-destructive and problematic. Additionally, while it remains a secular democracy in character, there are intrusions of religion into some aspects of governance that have no place in an advanced democratic state in my opinion. It's style of proportional representation government also grants excessive power to extremist elements, which is dangerous. It also has not moved quickly enough on desalination projects, instead being overly reliant on water sourced in the West Bank, where this practice creates unnecessary tensions which could have been easily alleviated with more desalination projects. And yet no one here has ever called me an anti-semite, to my knowledge.

However, the overwhelming focus of certain posters on starting dozens if not hundreds of threads specifically about Israel while ignoring far worse problems elsewhere, along with their wildly exaggerated claims about what Israel does (routinely labeling it genocide, etc) leaves some questions about those posters' potential motives/biases.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Bonam

[Moonlight Graham]

Don't worry about it too much GH, it's just for ignorant or paranoid people. It's defamation.

[The_Squid]

Unless you're a troll, ranter, idiot, partisan or of that ilk, then you won't think that criticism of Israel is the same as antisemitism.

[Topaz]

Do u think that maybe it has mostly to do with Jesus being a Jew and what happen to these people by Hitler? Some people may feel, by being negative about Israel is doing the same against Jesus? IF so, lets separate the two and judge Israel as a country only as we would like any other country.

[poochy]

How many other countries would easily be considered worse? Most people don't criticize Israel because they are anti Semites, they are just piling on to a fashionable left wing cause for the down trodden that is in large part originated by anti Semites who like to use those bleeding hearts to their advantage, this exact practice happens over and over again on many issues including this one. If it was only about how one country treats those around it, those who tried to destroy it no less, then the list of greater offenders of these principles would be so long that Israel would barely be mentioned, now ask yourself why it is instead always at the top of the list?

The university of Victoria is allowing a scholarship to be given out to students in the memory of Mao, murderer of tens of millions, it's privately sponsored but clearly the University should not be allowing this, now, want to bet on whether there is an out cry over this that compares to the BDS movement at U Vic? Think that has nothing to do with the shared ideology of most protesters?

Im not defending Israel, some criticism is deserved, im defending the idea that their isn't an underlying bias, which be any reasonable measure, there clearly is.

[Guest]

Criticism of Islam isn't Islamophobia, but those who do it might attract the attention and admiration of Islamophobes.

It's the same with Israel.

[jbg]

The crux of this thread is to determine why criticism of Israel is viewed as anti-semetic. No matter what the criticism is, this is the usual 'go to' bit in order to shout down and shut down critical views that have total merit in their opposition to some of the things Israel does?

Now this thread is not about WHAT Israel has done. We've beaten the crap out of that dead horse before it was even born. I want to deal specifically with the notion that ANY criticism is viewed as anti-semitism.

I thought it would be better to create a new thread for this specific topic. Trolls, ranters, idiots, partisans and the ilk need not participate.

A simple answer to the premise of the thread title: It seems that people favor "self-determination" for just about every description of peoples, from First Nations to South Ossetians (in the new Republic of Georgia). There is one thundering exception; the Jews and the State of Israel. It seems that their desire to exercise self-determination runs into a bullet-hale of condemnation.

Before I hear anyone say "occupied territories" keep this in mind; those territories were occupied after three attempts were made by war to prevent Israel's formation or to "drive Israel into the sea." And most settlement activity actually came after the 1973 War, an unprovoked war started on the Jews' holiest day.

[Rue]

GhostH you stated:

The crux of this thread is to determine why criticism of Israel is viewed as anti-Semitic".

No its not. The crux is in fact stated in the very next sentence from you:

"NO MATTER WHAT THE CRITICISM IS, this is the usual go to bit in order to shout down and shut down critical views that have total merit in their opposition to some of the things Israel does."

The crux of your thread is to make an accusation to any poster who has criticized an anti Israeli thread as being anti semitic by singling them all out as being uncalled for and used to "shout down" and "shut down" criticism of Israel.

Please, provide one post, one comment from anyone on this board that provides an example of the accusation you made.

I would contend your words above pose an unsubstantiated accusation as a premises to discuss an issue you already know the answer to which is why you provide no examples. I contend that in fact if you posted words from people particularly me you would know they have the specific reasons and answers you ask for.

I believe in a series of posts by Mayer in a thread that was supposed to criticize Israeli policies, I accused him of anti Semitism in many of his remarks and specifically stated why-you challenged me for doing so making the exact same allegation as the above.

You posed the accusation in your premises for this thread as a given fact that exists with no proof, then you pose that you don't know how comments about Israel could cross over the line and become anti semitic?

Give me a break.

Please provide one post from me or anyone that did not explain specifically why we felt a comment went over the line.

Please provide one post where the accusation was made with no explanation.

I wish to be as clear as possible. I don't buy into your premises. I think its a back handed accusation. No one has been shut down on this forum from insulting Jews when criticizing Israel. No one. In fact no subject matter I would argue has allowed to range so far past its premises than topics about Israel. I would contend that not one thread on this board about Israel claiming it criticizes a specific Israeli state policy has not turned into a pissing match as to why Israel exists and why Jews who choose to be a nation are criminals, demons,. etc.

Two can play this game Ghost.

I could have started a thread asking why is it that every thread on Israel turns into an anti- semitic free for all? You would turn around and say oh no its just you seeing that because of your pro Israeli bias.

Isn't that your point now?

So now what, do I respond and say your assumption all comments about anti semitism have no substance as you state simly shows you generalize based on your preconceived bias that if the word 'Israel" or Zionist/ism" is in a sentence it suddenly makes an anti-semitic comment un anti-Semitic.

One next to I get the line about how some of your best friends are Jews or you only hate Jews when they are Zionist so that makes the hatred o.k.?

Of course not. Know why? Because you already know the answer. You show actually when you discuss Israel you never cross over the lien and smeer all Jews, all Israelis, all Zionists. You demonstrate in each and every response you know the difference.

The question is, how do you not see it happening with others.

Please don't tell me you have never seen Hudson Jones, Big Guy or Mayer go over the line or others.

If you provide one post where someone made accusation of anti Semitism for no reason other than to shut down a thread, any thread then and only then can I properly answer your question.

Who you kidding, if you wanted a general thread to discuss new anti Semitism you would have stopped after the first sentence in your stated premises for this thread.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Rue

[Rue]

JBG, Ghost has been provided the answer in numerous threads. I would suggest his asking the question poses that he is now making a blanket generalization that he believes certain posters hide behind the accusation of anti Semitism to as he says shout down and prevent criticism of Israel on this forum.

I believe he engages in a passive aggressive accusation that he has not backed up.

I do not believe for a second he does not understand how conversations allegedly about criticizing Israeli state policies have been used on this forum to attack Jews, and engage in negative, false and unsubstantiated stereotypes, generalizations and characteristics about Jews, Judaism, Zionists, Zionism, and all Israelis let alone anyone who supports the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish nation.

But here let's play like he does not know the answer and refer him again to:

https://en.wilepedia.org/wiki/New_antisemtiism

www.jcpa.org/phas-sharanksy-f.04.html

www.jerusalempost.com/Opinion/Combating-the-new-anti-Semitism-408167

He already knows the above. In fact I have never seen in him make a post critical of Israeli state policies where he unfairly made genralizationsor negative slurs about Jews, Zionists or Israelis.

Ghost demonstrates in each and every comment he has made about Israel he makes comments as to a specific action or policy.

Its kind of ironic. I would say he knows the answer to the question better than anyone.

Now if he really had a specific example of a post where the term anti semitic was arbitrarily thrown out, he would have provided it.

He didn't.

I would love to see him provide an example of what he has thrown out as an accusation.

If he really wanted to discuss only new anti Semitism he would not have made the statement he did after his first sentence. The second sentence shows he's not interested in a discussin on new anti-Semitism but in fact on asking anyone calling out anti-semites to defend their right to do so.

I don't but into that crap. I never met anyone on this board who accused someone of anti Semitism of simply throwing it out without explaining its context which already provides the answer he asks.

The sheer volume of anti semtiic stereotypes,slurs, false information about Judaism and Zionism passed off on this board as discussion about specific Israeli policies speaks for itself and for him to make a generalized statement suggesting he can't see it is crap to me.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Rue

[Argus]

The crux of this thread is to determine why criticism of Israel is viewed as anti-semetic.

It's not. Never has been. I've criticized Israel in the past.

But when you have people acting like propaganda organs for the Saudi or Palestinian government, relentlessly posting story after story condemning Israel from extremely biased Arab sources who completely ignore context, well, let's just say my own absolute confidence in the motivation of such people is that they hate Jews. Why else are they so relentless? Israel isn't even in the worst fifty human rights abusers around. And you never see these people criticizing other countries for their human rights abuses. Their focus is solely on Israel. Why? Because Israel is Jewish seems to be the only logical answer.

[Big Guy]

If I posted "I think that Jews do bad things". That could be read as anti-Semitic because I am attributing negative behavior to a specific religious group.

If I posted "I think that Muslims do bad things". That could be read as anti-Islamic because I am attributing negative behavior to a specific religious group.

If I posted "I think the Israeli government is doing bad things". That could and should be read that I am attributing negative behavior to the government of a country.

If I posted that "I think the Syrian government is doing bad things". That could and should be read that I am attributing negative behavior to the government of the country.

It is really very easy to understand what people are posting. When you start adding your own personal interpretation of what a statement implies, then that is your problem. That tells a lot more about you than the person whose statements you are interpreting.

The confusion occurs only when zealots will not accept anything that they interpret as criticism of their religion - especially if that religion represents God's chosen people.

Personally, I have learned to ignore the rantings of zealots.

[GostHacked]

Simple answer: it's not. There are many valid criticisms of Israel, as there are of any country....

However, the overwhelming focus of certain posters on starting dozens if not hundreds of threads specifically about Israel while ignoring far worse problems elsewhere, along with their wildly exaggerated claims about what Israel does (routinely labeling it genocide, etc) leaves some questions about those posters' potential motives/biases.

The first point seems to have some support based on the rest of the replies.

On your second point, there are many threads dealing with many other nations wrong doings. And yes some have their agenda when it comes to Israel. But because there are others that obviously have an anti-semitic tone, I don't understand why, when I agree with some of the points, I am considered an anti-semite as well.

[GostHacked]

GhostH you stated:

The crux of this thread is to determine why criticism of Israel is viewed as anti-Semitic".

No its not. The crux is in fact stated in the very next sentence from you:

Actually it is, I stated that in the OP and that is what we are dealing with here.

"NO MATTER WHAT THE CRITICISM IS, this is the usual go to bit in order to shout down and shut down critical views that have total merit in their opposition to some of the things Israel does."

The crux of your thread is to make an accusation to any poster who has criticized an anti Israeli thread as being anti semitic by singling them all out as being uncalled for and used to "shout down" and "shut down" criticism of Israel.

-snip-

Who you kidding, if you wanted a general thread to discuss new anti Semitism you would have stopped after the first sentence in your stated premises for this thread.

Sure, there are some obvious Jew haters here, but because I agree with some of those points, should my comments also be considered anti-semetic?

[eyeball]

The word antisemite is like the word terrorist. It's applied so broadly, loosely and often that it's virtually meaningless.

[Big Guy]

I have no idea why anyone would criticized Israel or the Israelis? Just because they toss 12 year old girls into jail for suspicion of being a dangerous person:

On the morning of February 9, the 12 year old child arrived at the entrance to the illegal Israeli settlement of Carmei Tzur, just north of Halhul in the occupied West Bank.

According to media reports from the day, witnesses alleged that she had a knife hidden under her shirt and was asked to stop by the settlement's security guard, who was suspicious of the young girl. A passing settler then allegedly took the knife from the girl and detained her until soldiers arrived at the scene. Soon afterwards, she was arrested by soldiers and taken for interrogation. She is still in jail.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/03/youngest-israeli-prisoner-12-year-girl-160317064812932.html

The International Red Cross informed the family that they were working to organise a trip to visit their daughter in the near future but the family is pessimistic. "No one has told us when we can talk to her. Unless we get a permit to visit her in prison, we don't know if we can visit her. This is controlled by the Israelis," said Mudya. ,"After she was convicted and sent to prison, I felt a great loss. It is the first time I've felt actual pain in my chest, losing my child and not being able to see her every day. I don't see her any more and I miss her."

Canada has to wash its hands of a rogue nation who has no problems with incarcerating 12 year old girls.

I guess disagreeing that 12 year old girls should not be incarcerated without representation is anti-semitic.

BTW - Did not Canada get involved in Afghanistan to give the opportunity for little girls to go to school.

The way these Israelis are treating Palestinian children is outrageous.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Big Guy

[Argus]

I have no idea why anyone would criticized Israel or the Israelis? Just because they toss 12 year old girls into jail for suspicion of being a dangerous person:

So here is an excellent example. This person repeatedly posts such things in "horror" at what an awful place the Jewish state is. Of course, anyone even ever so slightly familiar with the world knows that far, far, far worse things are happening every single day all around them. 12 year old girls are being sold in batches as sex slaves right next door, for example. 12 year old girls are being executed in Iraq. 12 year old girls are being killed by government bombs and raped by soldiers in Sudan.

You will never see any comment on any of those things, however, from those who repeatedly spout propaganda broadcasts from Al Jazeera.

Any 12 year old in an Israeli prison will be treated well and have access to an independent court system. Not so in ANY other state around the middle east. That includes the Palestinian territories, where the courts are lackeys to the governments and torture and extra-judicial executions are routine.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Argus

[Guest]

I have no idea why anyone would criticized Israel or the Israelis? Just because they toss 12 year old girls into jail for suspicion of being a dangerous person:

On the morning of February 9, the 12 year old child arrived at the entrance to the illegal Israeli settlement of Carmei Tzur, just north of Halhul in the occupied West Bank.

According to media reports from the day, witnesses alleged that she had a knife hidden under her shirt and was asked to stop by the settlement's security guard, who was suspicious of the young girl. A passing settler then allegedly took the knife from the girl and detained her until soldiers arrived at the scene. Soon afterwards, she was arrested by soldiers and taken for interrogation. She is still in jail.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/03/youngest-israeli-prisoner-12-year-girl-160317064812932.html

The International Red Cross informed the family that they were working to organise a trip to visit their daughter in the near future but the family is pessimistic. "No one has told us when we can talk to her. Unless we get a permit to visit her in prison, we don't know if we can visit her. This is controlled by the Israelis," said Mudya. ,"After she was convicted and sent to prison, I felt a great loss. It is the first time I've felt actual pain in my chest, losing my child and not being able to see her every day. I don't see her any more and I miss her."

Canada has to wash its hands of a rogue nation who has no problems with incarcerating 12 year old girls.

I guess disagreeing that 12 year old girls should not be incarcerated without representation is anti-semitic.

BTW - Did not Canada get involved in Afghanistan to give the opportunity for little girls to go to school.

The way these Israelis are treating Palestinian children is outrageous.

Do you have any criticism left for those sent her off with a knife under her shirt?

[GostHacked]

I have no idea why anyone would criticized Israel or the Israelis? ..... off topic

[Charles Anthony]

Guys,

Avoid thread drift. Copy them if you want to keep them but soon, off topic posts will be deleted.

Tick, tock.

[Big Guy]

Do you have any criticism left for those sent her off with a knife under her shirt?

You and all others on this board are quite free to use examples to point out why you feel "those who sent her off with a knife under her shirt" should be criticized. All you have to do is locate and post examples and let the reader make their own decisions - like Big Guy does.

The theme of this thread is " Why is criticizm of Israel considered Anti-semitism?". I try to explain why I consider "outrageous" acts are acts being performed by the Israeli government - not by Jews. I am quite content to be labelled as anti-Israeli because I disagree with the direction that Netanyahu has been taking Israel.

Perhaps you might begin a thread called "Why is criticizm of Palestinians considered Anti-Islamic?

The only people who consider that " Criticizm of Israel considered Anti-semitism?" are those religious zealots who equate the State with the religion. I do not. So "Why is criticizm of Israel considered Anti-semitism?" because it is to the benefit of the Zionists to equate to two to try to minimize criticism of the policies of the state.

[Argus]

Not everyone who hates Israel hates Jews. But everyone who hates Jews hates Israel.

[Big Guy]

Not everyone who hates Israel hates Jews. But everyone who hates Jews hates Israel.

That is an interesting point of view. I do agree that it is easier and simplistic to categorize views of a country as "hating" or "loving" it. Those who understand the world realize that there are many incremental degrees and conditions of support between those two extremes - but that requires accepting the fact that the nuances attached to those increments.

Using logical comparisons in attempting to make a statement can be tricky. I suggest you reference:

http://tx.english-ch.com/teacher/jun/level-b/making-logical-comparisons/

and

http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/eng207-td/Logic%20and%20Analysis/most_common_logical_fallacies.htm

[Guest]

You and all others on this board are quite free to use examples to point out why you feel "those who sent her off with a knife under her shirt" should be criticized. All you have to do is locate and post examples and let the reader make their own decisions - like Big Guy does.

The theme of this thread is " Why is criticizm of Israel considered Anti-semitism?". I try to explain why I consider "outrageous" acts are acts being performed by the Israeli government - not by Jews. I am quite content to be labelled as anti-Israeli because I disagree with the direction that Netanyahu has been taking Israel.

Perhaps you might begin a thread called "Why is criticizm of Palestinians considered Anti-Islamic?

The only people who consider that " Criticizm of Israel considered Anti-semitism?" are those religious zealots who equate the State with the religion. I do not. So "Why is criticizm of Israel considered Anti-semitism?" because it is to the benefit of the Zionists to equate to two to try to minimize criticism of the policies of the state.

Fair enough. As I've said many times on here, criticism of Israel is not anti semitism, any more than criticism of Islam is Islamophobia. Both can lead to some pretty unsavoury characters thinking about supporting your points.

[Argus]

That is an interesting point of view. I do agree that it is easier and simplistic to categorize views of a country as "hating" or "loving" it. Those who understand the world realize that there are many incremental degrees and conditions of support between those two extremes - but that requires accepting the fact that the nuances attached to those increments.

You think repeatedly posting anti-Israeli propaganda from Arab sources determined to demonize Israel and Jews, and demanding we 'wash our hands' of Israel constitutes a nuanced argument, do you?

Edited March 18, 2016 by Argus