SpankyMcFarland Posted April 10, 2016 Report Posted April 10, 2016 (edited) I'm not exactly a spokesman for Hamas, having already pointed out that worse things happen elsewhere. What Europeans got away with in the past in North America and elsewhere is no longer acceptable. That's tough on Israel and, yes, hypocritical but that's how it is. If Israel takes more of the West Bank without the people, we are going to notice and say something. My prediction for 2026: Israel's de facto border will have moved a long way eastward. Let's see what happens. That's my last comment on this matter here. The tenor of the debate is just too shrill - mad, really. Edited April 10, 2016 by SpankyMcFarland ‘How small we make our worlds. Gather them in, tighten them up into little castles of fear.’
bush_cheney2004 Posted April 10, 2016 Report Posted April 10, 2016 ....What Europeans got away with in the past in North America and elsewhere is no longer acceptable. That's tough on Israel and, yes, hypocritical but that's how it is. If Israel takes more of the West Bank without the people, we are going to notice and say something. But it's not just Europeans in the past...it is Europeans and North Americans in the present as well through military and economic intervention in far away places as well as the continuation of historic subjugation back home. Criticizing Israel for behaving in the same manner for regional interests and existential threats invokes a different benchmark and ethnic bias. Why is there a difference ? Economics trumps Virtue.
Big Guy Posted April 10, 2016 Report Posted April 10, 2016 ... That's my last comment on this matter here. The tenor of the debate is just too shrill - mad, really. Good idea - This is no longer a debate and is bordering on the unhealthy. I am considering joining you but I do not feel one individuals unhealthy rhetoric should be allowed to close down a thread. Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
SpankyMcFarland Posted April 10, 2016 Report Posted April 10, 2016 (edited) But it's not just Europeans in the past...it is Europeans and North Americans in the present as well through military and economic intervention in far away places as well as the continuation of historic subjugation back home. Criticizing Israel for behaving in the same manner for regional interests and existential threats invokes a different benchmark and ethnic bias. Why is there a difference ?OK one more because the points are reasonable and brief. I am not going to defend North America. We have always been self-righteous hypocrites on these issues in the British tradition as South Africans found out decades ago. However, you seem to be assuming the US does not get criticized now which it does and, while the US is guilty of many crimes in the recent past, fortunately for Canada creeping annexation of neighbouring territory is no longer on that list. Furthermore, I haven't heard a US President complaining about minority voters coming out in droves for his opponent in quite a while and when did a US govt minister last talk about minority voters like Bennett does? Israel does get too much criticism. I would say there is a combination of factors at work - it's a comfortable place for journalists to visit for a start - but its status as a special ally of America is part of it. Prejudice may play a role but it's not the whole story. What South Africans found was that as soon as the US reformed on ethnic discrimination it demanded higher standards of other countries as well. Israel does have problems with its ethnic minority - Arabs tell us so. It is not unique in that regard but the country is ill-served by denying the truth. Edited April 10, 2016 by Charles Anthony fixed quote ‘How small we make our worlds. Gather them in, tighten them up into little castles of fear.’
bush_cheney2004 Posted April 10, 2016 Report Posted April 10, 2016 .....I am not going to defend North America. We have always been self-righteous hypocrites on these issues in the British tradition as South Africans found out decades ago. However, you seem to be assuming the US does not get criticized now which it does and, while the US is guilty of many crimes in the recent past, fortunately for Canada creeping annexation of neighbouring territory is no longer on that list. This argues that anti-Americanism (which is well documented and never assumed away by me) is consistent with criticism of Israel, but again you have not applied the standard equally. Where is the "BDS USA" campaign ? Where is the "anit-Canadianism" in equal measure, which continues foreign and domestic aggression for nation state interests? So called "BDS Israel" campaigns are both anti-Israeli and anti-semitism, while giving Canada and other nations a pass for past and present domestic/foreign policies. Economics trumps Virtue.
Rue Posted April 10, 2016 Report Posted April 10, 2016 I'm not exactly a spokesman for Hamas, having already pointed out that worse things happen elsewhere. What Europeans got away with in the past in North America and elsewhere is no longer acceptable. That's tough on Israel and, yes, hypocritical but that's how it is. If Israel takes more of the West Bank without the people, we are going to notice and say something. My prediction for 2026: Israel's de facto border will have moved a long way eastward. Let's see what happens. That's my last comment on this matter here. The tenor of the debate is just too shrill - mad, really. You admit your position is hypocritical which is more than I can say for most. What Europeans got away with in the past is not the only thing that does not make them morally superior to Israel when you compare the two. You might want to look at what these countries have done in the 20th an d21st centuries as well. Shrill by the way is in the ear of the beholder or in your case reader. Shrill yes indeed for me too. But some people only hill shrill when its not directed at Israel, I hear it when it is.
Rue Posted April 10, 2016 Report Posted April 10, 2016 Good idea - This is no longer a debate and is bordering on the unhealthy. I am considering joining you but I do not feel one individuals unhealthy rhetoric should be allowed to close down a thread. Yes I agree cowardly passive aggressive references from one individual's unhealthy rhetoric plus non stop self righteous diatribes about Israel shouldn't be allowed to close down the thread
Rue Posted April 10, 2016 Report Posted April 10, 2016 I have argued and continue to do so that anti Semitism has mutated in form. Where it once expressed itself as Jews being cursed for having killed Jesus and condemned to hell unless they converted, it then changed with th eNazis to define Jews as an inferior mixed race and so with no hope of salvation. I have provided articles explaining the above and how it mutated after WW2 with the help of Nais who fled to Egypt, Iraq and Syria and then thhe KGB which mutated the hatred of Jews using the old Nazi language to focus on the Jews now of the Middle East. Its no accident there is such a transparent and slight veneer that sees rhetoric about Israel turning into attacks on Jews and having nothing to do with questioning Israeli state policies, but the rights of Jews to have rejected their treatment in Europe and in the Muslim world as second class citizens. I agree with Ali Salim's article, "Hatred of Jews, September 16, 2013 at http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3897/hatred-of-jews when he stated: "Despite the new Enlightenment, many Europeans, among them the leaders of the European Union, are still fundamentally and militantly anti-Semitic. Instead of attacking the Jews head-on the way their ancestors did -- by simply passing discriminatory laws, forcing them to live in ghettoes and killing them -- they now politically correctly attack Israel, pretending that Israelis are not Jews. Beneath their political correctness their ancient, inbred anti-Semitism still smolders. For some Christians, as for the Muslims, hatred of the Jews is built on an ancient religious foundation, a legacy from the Middle Ages, and it is so basic and so well rooted that they are willing to support the Muslims in almost anything, as long as it harms the Jews in some way."
GostHacked Posted April 12, 2016 Author Report Posted April 12, 2016 (edited) I have a few problems with what Ali Salim is claiming, hence this thread. The problem with this is is a blanket statement and reduces the weight of real solid criticism (eg settlements) and that is a policy that one can easily attempt to criticize without a hint of anti-semitism. The settlements should not be considered sovereign Israeli territory. It does not matter if they are Jews or Muslims, or anyone else following a certain religion. Solid criticism can also be made with policies regarding the blockade. Not to mention their undisclosed nuclear weapons capabilities. All these are legit criticisms of a nation that wants to be taken seriously, but as soon as you call them out on something, there drops the anti-semite card. The only difference I see here is that Israel is essentially a Jewish nation. If we take Russia to task, are we against all Russians? Or just what the government does? What about France? The UK? The US? Canada? China? When we talk about certain policies and things that they have done are we automatically considered anti-*.* ?? Even when we talk about nations like Iran or Saudi Arabia, we never hear about 'well you hate all the people of that nation'. This application of anti-anything seems to be specifically regarding Israel. Critique Israel = anti-semite. Critique any other nation = just critique. Sure there are bias in many posts here. But It's not the people we take to task, it's the government. And until those that drop the A-S card we are not going to make any headway in real discussion as to why a specific action or policy is deemed bad without talking about WHO they are. I really don't care that they are Jews, it is the actions that are important. Edited April 12, 2016 by GostHacked
Rue Posted April 12, 2016 Report Posted April 12, 2016 I have a few problems with what Ali Salim is claiming, hence this thread. The problem with this is is a blanket statement and reduces the weight of real solid criticism (eg settlements) and that is a policy that one can easily attempt to criticize without a hint of anti-semitism. The settlements should not be considered sovereign Israeli territory. It does not matter if they are Jews or Muslims, or anyone else following a certain religion. Ali Salim is not claiming anything your above comments infer he has said. What you have done is in fact done I might say a clumsy job at ignoring what he actuallys aid, to try restate what he said as something else. You have an agenda where you only want to focus on Israeli settlements on the West Bank and claim its not anti semitic to criticize the settlements. It depends.It may not be depending on the references people make when challenging those settlements. That;s not the issue he raised however and he has never stated all criticism of Israeli state policies is anti semitic. He never made that blanket generalization. Go show me his words where he said all criticism of Israel is anti semitic or all criticism fo Jewish settlements is anti semitic. He never has stated that. I can only repeat again your desire or agenda to reduce the conflict to criticizing Jewish settlements is not the issue. Your following gcomment is also illogical and inconsistent: "Sure there are bias in many posts here. But It's not the people we take to task, it's the government." On the many posts placed on the Israeli war crimes thread and on others, the people of Israel, all its citizens particularly its Jewish ones are villified for the actions of their government. Nowhere in the responses is a differentiation made between Israeli Jews, Zionists, or Jews and a problematic Israeli government policy. No policy is even enunciated but insults against all Jews, Zionists, and Israeli Jews are. You don;t address that. Instead you give the above lame answer that ignores the device of smeering all Israeli Jews, all Zionists, all Jews foe choosing to exist as Israelis. You ignore that and it does not surprise me you ignore that jsut as you turn a blind eye and try rationalize it without addressing it. You avoid it and your only response is to ignore it and try refocus the topic to Jewish settlements on the West Bank claiming you are not anti semitic when you discuss them. No one said you were. You want to avoid the bigotry and bias on this forum about Jews, Zionists, Israeli Jews and using alleged criticism of Israeli policies , as the pretext to slur all Jews, Israeli Jews or Zionists for the actions of their government, knock yourself out . What a joke. We shouldn't blame the people just their government. Uh yah. Wghere have you been. If a Muslim is called a terrorist its Islamophobia on this forum. If a Jew is called a terrorist we can't call it anti semitism. That's the double standard you won't address. Provide one post where you or anyone were automatically called an anti semite on this board because all you did was criticize an Israeli state policy. I have asked your repeatedly for one. I asked all your compatriots who claim the same thing to provide an example. Not one post. Not one. You can't even prove the premises of your thread.
GostHacked Posted April 12, 2016 Author Report Posted April 12, 2016 You want to avoid the bigotry and bias on this forum about Jews, Zionists, Israeli Jews and using alleged criticism of Israeli policies , as the pretext to slur all Jews, Israeli Jews or Zionists for the actions of their government, knock yourself out . ---- You don;t address that. Instead you give the above lame answer that ignores the device of smeering all Israeli Jews, all Zionists, all Jews foe choosing to exist as Israelis. You ignore that and it does not surprise me you ignore that jsut as you turn a blind eye and try rationalize it without addressing it. Does this mean I am smearing all Jews when I discuss the contested illegal settlements? You make the claim that you are not accusing anyone of being anti-semtic but at the same time claiming any criticism is a slight on all Jews. You are also the one to claim anti-semitism against me for describing a difference between Zionists, Isrealis and Jews. You seem to be flip flopping here in this thread. I am not sure what your stance really is. On the flip side, is going after Hamas a slight on all Palestinians?? How is that not seen as racist or anti-semetic in anyway?
GostHacked Posted April 12, 2016 Author Report Posted April 12, 2016 A huge part of this problem is the bias towards criticism, claiming it is a veiled attempt at anti-semitism.
Argus Posted April 12, 2016 Report Posted April 12, 2016 (edited) I really don't care that they are Jews, it is the actions that are important. If that is true, why then do you spend so much more time criticizing them for actions while you ignore it when other (non-Jewish) countries do the same or much worse? Edited April 12, 2016 by Argus "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
GostHacked Posted April 12, 2016 Author Report Posted April 12, 2016 If that is true, why then do you spend so much more time criticizing them for actions while you ignore it when other (non-Jewish) countries do the same or much worse? So because I decide to focus more on their actions means I am inherently anti-semetic? And actually I've spent more time on this board criticizing the US government's actions way more than Israel. But I've not been called 'anti-american' because of it.
Rue Posted April 12, 2016 Report Posted April 12, 2016 You make the claim that you are not accusing anyone of being anti-semtic but at the same time claiming any criticism is a slight on all Jews. You are also the one to claim anti-semitism against me for describing a difference between Zionists, Isrealis and Jews. You seem to be flip flopping here in this thread. I am not sure what your stance really is. On the flip side, is going after Hamas a slight on all Palestinians?? How is that not seen as racist or anti-semetic in anyway? Provide the quotes where I claimed anti Semitism against you for describing a difference between Zionists, Israelis and Jews. You keep keep making accusations and refuse to provide the source of your allegations. Provide the words where I said what you claim. I did not. So that makes you someone who continues to come on this board and accuse me of saying things and you can't provide those things I said-why? How many more allegations do you intend to make you can't back up? Why are you asking me questions I have already answered and you know the answer for. I have made it clear not all Palestinians support Hamas many times and I have never once accused all Palestinians of being anti semitic let alone all supporting Hamas. Now back up what you said with my words or I will assume at this point you are simply puffing. If that is the best you can do, fabricate what I say, its pathetic. Go on back up what you said please.
Rue Posted April 12, 2016 Report Posted April 12, 2016 So because I decide to focus more on their actions means I am inherently anti-semetic? Not necessarily but inconsistent, hypocritical, , selective in approach you bet. In case you haven't noticed all your allegations you have been accused of anti Semitism against me have blown up in yourface with you not being able to provide one post, one post from me where I accused you of being an anti semite let alone simply because you criticize Israel. In fact I said you were careful in your words not to. This post and my responses about anti Semitism were directed at the specific people I directed them at. As for your current attempt to sucker Argus and I into questions about you being an anti semite, whether you are or are not I do not know and quite frankly don't care but I sure as hell see your inconsistency, hypocritical standards and approaches to the conflict in what you do select to discuss and that Ghost is why you are challenged.
GostHacked Posted April 12, 2016 Author Report Posted April 12, 2016 Rue, you know how much crap I need to sift through to find you that quote? But hey you essentially just said the same thing with post #110.
The_Squid Posted April 13, 2016 Report Posted April 13, 2016 Shrill is an excellent description for the posts in this topic.
Rue Posted April 13, 2016 Report Posted April 13, 2016 If you don't want the "crap" Ghost don't come on this thread and make allegations as to what I said that you can't back up. Its really that simple.
Rue Posted April 13, 2016 Report Posted April 13, 2016 Oh that was good Squid. Its shrill. Tell me when to you go on the Israel war crimes thread or any anti Israel thread and make the same insightful contribution. Lol. Gosh someone has a selective shrill detector programmed only for MOI. Hey now, let's get back to the thread shall we? You want shrill? Really? The Palestinian Authority has just asked the Manhattan federal appeals court to throw out a $65 million dollar award won by 10 American families who lost family members in terrorist attacks in Israel. You might want to go find out about these "shrill" families and understand some of us are going to be quite "shrilly" when it comes to Palestinian or Muslim terrorism and discuss it openly just as you Squid only want this board to limit ME discussion to what Israel does wrong. The door squid opens but is also closes. Don't let it hit you on the way out.
Argus Posted April 13, 2016 Report Posted April 13, 2016 So because I decide to focus more on their actions means I am inherently anti-semetic? There are a hundred countries in the world which are more vicious, brutal and cruel than Israel. Yet you never focus on any of them. Now why would that be? "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
GostHacked Posted April 13, 2016 Author Report Posted April 13, 2016 There are a hundred countries in the world which are more vicious, brutal and cruel than Israel. Yet you never focus on any of them. Now why would that be? Actually my overall participation on this forum has been reduced over the past year or so, by choice. However, I have participated in many other threads, but it seems that most of what I post does not get read or looked over unless I am talking about Israel. So are you focusing on just what I post regarding Israel, or do you participate in any of those other threads? Anyways, that is irrelevant to the specific topic of this thread.
Argus Posted April 13, 2016 Report Posted April 13, 2016 Actually my overall participation on this forum has been reduced over the past year or so, by choice. However, I have participated in many other threads, but it seems that most of what I post does not get read or looked over unless I am talking about Israel. So are you focusing on just what I post regarding Israel, or do you participate in any of those other threads? Anyways, that is irrelevant to the specific topic of this thread. No, it's entirely relevant. Very few anti-Semites are going to come out and admit it openly these days. Instead they tend to couch their antisemitism in dog whistle words, decrying 'Zionists' instead of Jews, and making long and repeated lists of the crimes of Israel rather than the crimes of Jews. That is why there is suspicion that when people devote enormous effort to criticizing Israel and 'Zionism' they're really simply pursuing an anti-Semitic agenda. Israel is, after all, far away and relatively unimportant to most of us here unless we're Jews. And there are many, many more brutal oppressors and killers of the innocent out there who draw virtually no notice. I don't have a problem with people honestly opposing certain aspects of Israeli policy, like the settlments which I too think are stupid and illegal, but when they seem obsessed, well, you have to wonder why. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
GostHacked Posted April 13, 2016 Author Report Posted April 13, 2016 No, it's entirely relevant. You've participated more in the current 'Israel War Crime's' thread than I have. So where is the relevance?
Rue Posted April 20, 2016 Report Posted April 20, 2016 The relevance is your lack of impartiality and consistency in what you choose to complain about and see problems with. Its as relevant as how a bus blows up killing innocent Israelis and you, Eye, Bug Guy, will you raise a thread about it? Well? Of course not. Your attempt to portray yourself as impartial and not bias doesn't fly in the pattern of what you choose to criticize. That was the point being made. The blatant selectivity as to what certain posters will discuss speaks for itself. Loud and clear and your silence is relevant and its loud, loud as hell in its implications.
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