Britain Sets Date for EU Referendum -- Brexit

[kimmy]

The globalization of labour may not directly benefit you, but doesn't it benefit humanity in other countries? That job sent to India certainly benefits that Indian worker and her family.

We cannot have it both ways. Are we progressive or not?

Do we elect politicians to make life better in Canada, or in India?

-k

[Derek 2.0]

And to add for those he felt the SNP was going to be able to easily leverage Brexit to gain FREEDOM for Scotland:

Donald Tusk, the council president, declined her overtures by arguing that a meeting would be “not appropriate” given the “situation in the UK.”

His refusal is significant as the European Council comprises the heads of all the member states, who would have to unanimously agree to any special deal for Scotland, whether it was independent or not.

Several central and eastern European states are reported to be concerned that meeting Ms Sturgeon would encourage other separatist movements.

[kimmy]

Kimmy

You have made it pretty clear in the past that you don't think much of older people but one day if you are lucky you will live to retire. If you have been responsible about looking after your own future you will have accumulated assets that will allow you to live above the poverty line for the rest of your life.

I don't spend lavishly. I save as much as I can, I'm paying off my mortgage as quickly as I can, and it isn't going to matter at all.

As much as I try and save, as much as the government increases my CPP payments to force me to save extra... the only difference it's going to make in 40-50 years is the number of stray cats and squirrels I have to hunt down each week to keep from starving. Everything is going to be cut away to almost nothing, based on the logic that by comparison with our global competitors in Laos and Bangladesh and whatever the hell else, our benefits are still too lavish and therefore unsustainable.

You talked about pension plans earlier-- they're going the way of the dodo. The private sector is doing away with them because they're "uncompetative" and "unsustainable". You talked about defined benefit pension plans-- only government workers have those anymore.

If the value of those assets decreases and the value of the money they are invested in also decreases, that is not a blip, it is todays reality because you have to keep withdrawing from those depleted accounts or you don't eat and the bills don't get paid. There is no waiting it out and there are no buying opportunities because to buy, you have to sell something at a devalued price to get the money. Either that or you have to sell some of your fixed income investments in order to invest in the market and assume more risk at a time in your life when that is exactly the wrong thing to do. The same goes for pension plans if you are lucky enough to have one. If the market takes a 20% hit, they can't just say sorry, no cheque for you until the market recovers.

Depending on their market exposure and with interest rates being so low, most retirees have more exposure than they would really like at their age. When you add the market losses to the devaluation of the pound, Brit retirees went to bed Friday night about 20% poorer than when they went to bed on Thursday, Their financial obligations didn't change.

Yes, there are some retirees who have done very well on property and or have good pension plans but they aren't the majority. I have a cousin who is a tax accountant and financial advisor in the Kelowna area. We were talking to her last week and one of the things she mentioned is that she has never seen so many seniors declaring bankruptcy.

Not sure about England, but here in Canada the poverty rate for seniors is MUCH LOWER than for the population as a whole, and MUCH MUCH LOWER than for Canadian children. For those who are truly struggling, we have income supplements.

Again, the idea that we should design current policy with the goal of doing what's best for the stock market right now is incredibly short-sighted.

-k

[kactus]

Every society has its own dare share of sc*ms and ignorant , unintelligent people...

For sure there is no exception for some deluded youngsters who are using the Brexit results for their own xenophobic/ racist agenda!

It's a disgrace...

Watch this video this link. A bunch of thugs on a tram in Manchester:

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/britain/get-back-to-africa-video-shows-shocking-racist-abuse-on-manchester-tram-34841014.html

[taxme]

That's the kind of moronic attitude that results in these kinds of situations. The average investor and retiree is taking a much bigger hit than these billionaires. The billionaires can afford it. Those trying to live off their life's savings and investments can't. It was the so called peons who shot themselves in the foot, not the billionaires. They will come out of this just fine.

The 52% that voted to leave the EU did not seem to think that there was anything to worry about. You listen too much to the the doom and gloomers of the lame duck media and the globalist elite and their lackey politicians. The people who shot themselves in the foot were Cameron and the globalist elite by allowing the referendum to happen. The elite have started something that they are going to regret.Ha-ha..As Judge Pirro says on her American TV show "the elite are on their way out". That is great news for all of us peons, even you.

[-TSS-]

The Brits had a similar referendum in 1975 on the then-EEC and back then 67% of the voters wanted to stay. Unlikely that in 40 years people would have become more conservative and nationalist. Today's EU is just so different to the old EEC that people don't accept it. If the EU were solely a union based on international trade between the member-states a referendum would have been a waste of time.

[Wilber]

Do we elect politicians to make life better in Canada, or in India?

-k

And to many, that just means getting cheaper stuff. They have said so, right here.

[Wilber]

The 52% that voted to leave the EU did not seem to think that there was anything to worry about. You listen too much to the the doom and gloomers of the lame duck media and the globalist elite and their lackey politicians. The people who shot themselves in the foot were Cameron and the globalist elite by allowing the referendum to happen. The elite have started something that they are going to regret.Ha-ha..As Judge Pirro says on her American TV show "the elite are on their way out". That is great news for all of us peons, even you.

So what's your plan after you blow everything up?

[?Impact]

here in Canada the poverty rate for seniors is MUCH LOWER than for the population as a whole

Yes, Canada made great progress towards lowering senior poverty with a dramatic decrease from the 70's to the 90's. The Canada Pension Plan was one of the main factors there. Unfortunately that progress stopped in the mid 90's and has been slowly inching it was back up ever since.

[Wilber]

I don't spend lavishly. I save as much as I can, I'm paying off my mortgage as quickly as I can, and it isn't going to matter at all.

As much as I try and save, as much as the government increases my CPP payments to force me to save extra... the only difference it's going to make in 40-50 years is the number of stray cats and squirrels I have to hunt down each week to keep from starving. Everything is going to be cut away to almost nothing, based on the logic that by comparison with our global competitors in Laos and Bangladesh and whatever the hell else, our benefits are still too lavish and therefore unsustainable.

You talked about pension plans earlier-- they're going the way of the dodo. The private sector is doing away with them because they're "uncompetative" and "unsustainable". You talked about defined benefit pension plans-- only government workers have those anymore.

Not sure about England, but here in Canada the poverty rate for seniors is MUCH LOWER than for the population as a whole, and MUCH MUCH LOWER than for Canadian children. For those who are truly struggling, we have income supplements.

Again, the idea that we should design current policy with the goal of doing what's best for the stock market right now is incredibly short-sighted.

-k

Actually defined benefit plans are very good for the economy. If set up and managed properly they can cost companies next to nothing. For them and everyone else who is trying to grow their capital, reliance on the markets is due to historically low interest rates. Unfortunately we live in a consumer driven economy and anything that effects consumption results in a recession so rates have to be kept down. We are all like hamsters in a wheel, nothing changes if we run faster.

I certainly not going to try an minimize the challenges people face these days but I'm not sure why you think making one segment of the population poorer is going to benefit you. You don't think seniors pay taxes and use the goods and services provided by you and other tax payers. Perhaps you would like to see more of them on welfare so you can support them to.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Wilber

[TimG]

Actually defined benefit plans are very good for the economy.

Defined benefit plans make no sense is a world where few people stay at the same employer for life.

Pension plans need to be personal and portable.

Edited June 29, 2016 by TimG

[Wilber]

Defined benefit plans make no sense is a world where few people stay at the same employer for life.

Pension plans need to be personal and portable.

That's exactly what CPP is. In DB plans you become vested after a few years. If you leave before that, you get back your contributions plus whatever the plan earned in that time. If you role it over into another plan at arms length, it isn't taxable. If you leave after that, you will still get a pension at retirement age based on years of service and what you put into it.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Wilber

[Charles Anthony]

#StopThreadDrift

[Argus]

And to many, that just means getting cheaper stuff. They have said so, right here.

I don't know anyone who has said so. The politicians have never campaigned on it, that's for sure. Every trade agreement is about jobs, jobs, jobs.

[BC_chick]

I don't know anyone who has said so. The politicians have never campaigned on it, that's for sure. Every trade agreement is about jobs, jobs, jobs.

I wish people would stop comparing EU to a trade agreement. It's a 'single market' when it comes to goods and people, that's vastly different than a trade agreement. It has its own parliament, and rules on transport and consumer rights.

EU acts more like a country.

Brexit is more akin to Quebec leaving Canada than it is Canada leaving NAFTA.

[overthere]

Do we elect politicians to make life better in Canada, or in India?

-k

You may not have heard that CANADA IS BACK in a big way globally. Justin apologizes if that means you are unemployed.

[overthere]

Defined benefit plans make no sense is a world where few people stay at the same employer for life.

Pension plans need to be personal and portable.

They also make no sense when corporations are unlikely to survive for generations, which is the new reality..

[overthere]

I wish people would stop comparing EU to a trade agreement. It's a 'single market' when it comes to goods and people, that's vastly different than a trade agreement. It has its own parliament, and rules on transport and consumer rights.

EU acts more like a country.

Brexit is more akin to Quebec leaving Canada than it is Canada leaving NAFTA.

No, Quebec is much more more integrated polticially and economically with Canada than the UK has ever been with the EU.

The reason the EU is in a fair bit of trouble- and trouble well before Brexit- is that the EU is at a crossroads. To remain effective and even viable, it is essential that member countries surrender their sovereignty to a much higher degree than they do now.

The EU is in a very difficult spot, which explains why they are being totally hardline hardasses right now with the UK. " Get out Get Out Get out". They know full well that they are vulnerable. They cannot afford to lose any other major players. The key to this mayhem was the 2008+ global economic crisis. It exposed some very major holes in Euro fiscal policy. They have been unable to make much progress on plugging those holes, and it really shows up now.

These are perilous times. if the EU goes down, 2008 will look like the good old days because this meltdown will be monstrous and will hurt everybody everywhere.

[Wilber]

I don't know anyone who has said so. The politicians have never campaigned on it, that's for sure. Every trade agreement is about jobs, jobs, jobs.

Among other things, cheap dairy products from the US and New Zealand has come up frequently. Lately on the Trans Pacific Trade thread.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Wilber

[Wilber]

They also make no sense when corporations are unlikely to survive for generations, which is the new reality..

The plans are separate from the company. Companies have no control over the plan's assets. The plan would have to be wound up if the company went broke but its assets are still there for the employees, to be distributed in the form of reduced pensions or lump sums. Either way, it is money invested for retirement.

[BC_chick]

No, Quebec is much more more integrated polticially and economically with Canada than the UK has ever been with the EU.

I believe the wording I used was 'more like' a country than a trade-agreement. In context, I said Britain leaving EU is more like 'Quebec leaving Canada' than it is 'Canada leaving NAFTA'.

The key element which you didn't acknowledge in your post at all is that EU is more like a country than it is a trade-agreement.

The rest of your post is pure speculation.

Edited June 29, 2016 by BC_chick

[Argus]

I wish people would stop comparing EU to a trade agreement. It's a 'single market' when it comes to goods and people, that's vastly different than a trade agreement. It has its own parliament, and rules on transport and consumer rights.

EU acts more like a country.

Brexit is more akin to Quebec leaving Canada than it is Canada leaving NAFTA.

The point is that when the UK signed on it was to a trade agreement. Then the elites gradually signed away more and more of Britain's sovereignty to the EU, which allowed unelected bureaucrats in foreign countries to make decisions for them. This benefited certain groups but many others didn't see any benefit to match the harm.

[Argus]

Among other things, cheap dairy products from the US and New Zealand has come up frequently. Lately on the Trans Pacific Trade thread.

You always give a little and lose a little when you negotiate trade agreements. The idea is that you'll gain more, overall, than you'll lose. Your inefficient industries will be hurt but so will theirs.

It just happens that our milk and dairy industries are, if not inefficient, then grossly over-coddled so that our dairy products cost a lot more than other people's do.

They haven't been very good at demonstrating the good things done for ordinary people vs the ordinary people whose lives have been made worse by imports.

[TimG]

This benefited certain groups but many others didn't see any benefit to match the harm.

As a general rule the EU bureaucrats pushed lefty policies on everything from labour rights to CO2. This meant that people who liked these policies loved the EU and people who opposed them hated the EU. The biggest problem with todays electorate is the inability of many people to separate a bad system from the results. i.e. just because the system produces results you like today that does not mean you should support it.

A similar issue exists with lefties in the US who are fine with executive overreach when Democratic presidents do it because they cannot imagine how they would hate it if a Republican president did the exact same thing.

Edited June 29, 2016 by TimG

[BC_chick]

The point is that when the UK signed on it was to a trade agreement. Then the elites gradually signed away more and more of Britain's sovereignty to the EU, which allowed unelected bureaucrats in foreign countries to make decisions for them. This benefited certain groups but many others didn't see any benefit to match the harm.

You and the Exit camp are entitled to that opinion but again it doesn't refute my point: the EU of 2016 is more like a country than a trade-agreement and people like you (and others on this thread) really need to stop making your points by comparing the situation to simple trade-agreements.