Islamophobia in Canada

[dialamah]

The social values and cultural norms of the people who will be coming into Canada are very relevant to the topic at hand.

I think there's lots of reason for concern without going back decades or centuries.

-k

Ok I will grant you that people coming from Syria are likely to be more conservatively-minded than people from say, Europe, overall. Given that over the decades we've imported millions of people from various parts of the world, including oppressive regimes and conservative social culture, can you identify some actual data indicating a negative affect on Canadian culture?

For example, India is another region of the world in which honor killings are not uncommon, where women are accorded less status than men and where homosexuality is penalized by law, all of which run counter to our current culture and laws. So I ask you, have the 1.3 million Indo-Canadians currently in Canada hindered progressive values from being incorporated? Have these Indo-Canadians made honor-killings, misogyny and gay bashing common among other Canadians? Have the values that the people brought with them from India translated into any kind of law in Canada? Or have we continued to expand our understanding of what equality, tolerance and acceptance means in our society even with these 'backwards' people landing on our shores, and taking part in our political system?

If it cannot be demonstrated that the millions of migrants from conservative cultures that we've already got in Canada have affected Canadian pursuit of equality and tolerance for everyone, then I think even the caution you want to associate with Syrian refugees verges on an unreasonable fear of this group of people.

Edited February 7, 2016 by dialamah

[On Guard for Thee]

So you've got nothing.

Every bit as violent as anything you will find in the Quran, if you bother to study these things.

[On Guard for Thee]

Apparently you don't understand English. Unfortunately I don't know another language to attempt to communicate with you. This medium does not allow for drawings.

Oh don't worry, I understand you, all too well.

[Argus]

Every bit as violent as anything you will find in the Quran, if you bother to study these things.

We're not talking about the koran, we're talking about history. It's not in the koran that invading Muslims slaughtered hundreds of millions of Hindus. That's in history.

[kimmy]

Goes to motive...

Whose motive for what?

Peoples' motive for wanting to leave Muslim countries and come to the West?

I think the obvious answers are "get out of a war zone and get someplace safe" for some, and "get out of crappy countries and move to nice countries" for the rest.

Is there any reason to think the "motive" is any more complicated than that?

If Islam is Peace...

Personally I think the slogan that Islam is "the Religion of Peace!" is about as funny as the idea that Christianity is "the Religion of Love!"

But that's not really the discussion at hand.

If Islam is Peace...where and when can we look to to see this in action? The Golden Age of Islam, perhaps? Where everybody was nice and Dhimmied-up via the Pact of Omar? If not that...where...when?

This could be an interesting topic for a new thread in the Religion section, hint-hint.

-k

[dialamah]

Whose motive for what?

Peoples' motive for wanting to leave Muslim countries and come to the West?

I think the obvious answers are "get out of a war zone and get someplace safe" for some, and "get out of crappy countries and move to nice countries" for the rest.

Is there any reason to think the "motive" is any more complicated than that?

According to the refugee-helper orientation session I attended, one of the defining differences between refugees and immigrants is that refugees want to go back to their country of origin, if they can.

[On Guard for Thee]

We're not talking about the koran, we're talking about history. It's not in the koran that invading Muslims slaughtered hundreds of millions of Hindus. That's in history.

You talk about that you like, I was talking about the Quran when you joined in.

[kimmy]

So all ya got there is a back pedal. OK.

Apparently you don't understand English. Unfortunately I don't know another language to attempt to communicate with you. This medium does not allow for drawings.

Every bit as violent as anything you will find in the Quran, if you bother to study these things.

Oh don't worry, I understand you, all too well.

This kind of inane banter is of no value to anyone, and makes everyone dumber for having read it.

-k

[Argus]

You talk about that you like, I was talking about the Quran when you joined in.

What you were attempting to do was deflect and protect extreme Muslim social values and beliefs from criticism.

[On Guard for Thee]

What you were attempting to do was deflect and protect extreme Muslim social values and beliefs from criticism.

You should maybe get the context of what's being discussed before you barge into the middle of it with yet another assumption.

[kimmy]

According to the refugee-helper orientation session I attended, one of the defining differences between refugees and immigrants is that refugees want to go back to their country of origin, if they can.

I'm skeptical of whether many plan to go home again later. Interviews with Syrians I have seen almost universally include talk of how excited the refugees are to start a new life here, become Canadians, get jobs and educations, etc etc. Justin Trudeau made it clear that he envisions these as future Canadians, not temporary visitors.

I think the defining difference between refugee and immigrant is the reason they left home, not how long they plan on staying.

-k

[Special Delivery]

Diplomacy is becoming extinct. All terrorism grows from a root cause and in recent years it has mostly been to seek revenge for the civilian deaths of loved ones. Of course there are other reasons as well. Some think they are freedom fighters. If you can't understand them, you cannot establish a dialogue nor any semblance of peace. That leaves only one alternative - killing them. That accelerates the cycle. If my hometown was invaded by barbaric rapists and indiscriminate killers who killed my wife or children, I would definitely seek revenge by any and all means possible as well. http://edition.cnn.com/2012/09/25/world/asia/pakistan-us-drone-strikes/index.html

ALL TERRORISM MUST STOP. Communication and reason backed up with deadly force will win the day IMO. In other words... show them both the carrot and the stick and let them choose their own fate.

[kimmy]

Ok I will grant you that people coming from Syria are likely to be more conservatively-minded than people from say, Europe, overall. Given that over the decades we've imported millions of people from various parts of the world, including oppressive regimes and conservative social culture, can you identify some actual data indicating a negative affect on Canadian culture?

For example, India is another region of the world in which honor killings are not uncommon, where women are accorded less status than men and where homosexuality is penalized by law, all of which run counter to our current culture and laws. So I ask you, have the 1.3 million Indo-Canadians currently in Canada hindered progressive values from being incorporated? Have these Indo-Canadians made honor-killings, misogyny and gay bashing common among other Canadians? Have the values that the people brought with them from India translated into any kind of law in Canada? Or have we continued to expand our understanding of what equality, tolerance and acceptance means in our society even with these 'backwards' people landing on our shores, and taking part in our political system?

If it cannot be demonstrated that the millions of migrants from conservative cultures that we've already got in Canada have affected Canadian pursuit of equality and tolerance for everyone, then I think even the caution you want to associate with Syrian refugees verges on an unreasonable fear of this group of people.

Information about the ethnicity of criminals in Canada is guarded as tightly as if it were a state secret; such information is impossible to provide. However, I think most British Columbians have heard of cases where young Sikh women have been murdered by family members.

I recall ten or so years ago when the Conservative Party were making their "outreach to ethnic Canadians"... it consisted of advertising in local foreign-language newspapers about how the Conservatives share your values, how their communities could trust the Conservatives to fight against gay marriage. Maybe Harper and Kenney had them pegged wrong... but I suspect they were uncomfortably close to the truth.

I read this news article yesterday in which British Muslim women take the Labour Party to task for pandering to patriarchal attitudes in the Muslim community.

A leading women’s charity have written a letter to Jeremy Corbyn to complain about “systematic misogyny” which saw female Muslims being blocked from seeking office by male Labour councillors.

(...)

She wrote: "As this is an open secret and has been going on for decades, we can only assume that the Labour Party has been complicit at the highest levels. She accused senior Labour figures of "deliberately turning a blind eye" to the treatment of Muslim women because "votes [are] more important to them".

Speaking to BBC’s Newsnight, Ms Gohir said these men had a "certain cultural mindset" and operate a "male, brotherly kinship system".

"They don’t like women being empowered. Why? Because we are going to challenge the status quo, we are going to challenge the misogyny, we are going to challenge the fact that our rights are being undermined in our communities."

(...)

One woman who says she was prevented from standing is optician Fozia Parveen from Birmingham.

She told the programme her efforts to stand to become a Labour councillor in Birmingham in 2007-8 were sabotaged by Muslim men in the local party.

She said: "At the time, I was aware of a smear campaign against me, they said that I was having an affair with one of the existing councillors. I was quite taken aback.

"People were turning up at my family home trying to intimidate my mum."

She said the Muslim male party members said a woman would never be elected there.

Another woman who was selected to stand in Peterborough in 2007, Shazia Bashir, said she was pressurised to stand down because she "didn’t have [her] father’s consent and support".

I think it's clear that there's an entrenched sexism in Muslim cultures. Muslims are well established in Britain, for much longer and in much greater numbers than here in Canada. And if the Muslim community there continues to see problems like this, why do we think Canada's experience will be different? I think the main difference between here and there is that here, there isn't a sufficient number of votes to be gained by pandering to conservative Muslims.

-k

[GostHacked]

What 'interpretation' of the Quran have you read?

I have only glanced through a Quran in Arabic. No I don't know the language or how to read it. It was owned by a person I uses to know. And since i could not understand anything, I shall rely on your 'expertise' in this matter. It's just not something I care to spend my time on. Although I don't think I ought to take your word for it either. That would be more time taken away from things I concentrate on now spent on trying to dekunk you. Even if I did take the time, it still would be a waste.

As far as I understand...Do unto others as you would have done unto you. (Mathew 7:12) Go and do thou likewise (Luke 10:37).

What message do you feel is the main one of the Bible?

If the 'do unto others' stands up, then God's got a lot to speak for considering what he did to Job.

So I have not read any bible back to back. I've read bits n parts of probably every version via stuff I see online and what I have physically read in the past. I am no authority on any religious texts. I don't really care to be.

How about Buddhism?

There are probably a few books that are considered as a bible equivalent, but how many interpretations are of that? However, the overall view and beliefs seem to fall more inline with the 'do unto others'. So how violent are Buddhist texts?

Overall I think I like the whole ideology behind Buddhism. But I would need to learn more.

[Rue]

I will own up to them when you actually refer to them instead of attributing to me a bunch of bs you make up.

I did and you did not.

[GostHacked]

Early Christianity wasn't spread via violence.

The native tribes, violent themselves, would say otherwise.

[WestCanMan]

Every bit as violent as anything you will find in the Quran, if you bother to study these things.

Within Islam it's understood that the "correct" interpretation of the Quran is that of Mohammed, their most significant prophet. The Quran is based on his revelations, and the correct model for Muslims to follow is the life that Mohammed lead. It's written in the Hadith, which is basically a biography of Mohammed.

Christians obviously emulate/follow the life/teachings of Jesus Christ more than any of the prophets, they believe Jesus was the Son of God.

Get to know more about those two and then revisit this topic. It's epiphany time.

Edited February 7, 2016 by WestCanMan

[DogOnPorch]

Whose motive for what?

Peoples' motive for wanting to leave Muslim countries and come to the West?

I think the obvious answers are "get out of a war zone and get someplace safe" for some, and "get out of crappy countries and move to nice countries" for the rest.

Is there any reason to think the "motive" is any more complicated than that?

Personally I think the slogan that Islam is "the Religion of Peace!" is about as funny as the idea that Christianity is "the Religion of Love!"

But that's not really the discussion at hand.

This could be an interesting topic for a new thread in the Religion section, hint-hint.

-k

Islam's motive as an ideology. Islam is more an insecure f-you to the other two 'book religions' than anything based on peace and love. Big Mo was a very insecure fellow who didn't take kindly to mocking...be in song, dance or poetry...or political commentary.

Folks say it's peaceful...but, can't point it out. I can, however, produce thousands of examples of Islam not playing well with others.

I rarely start threads as they've been deleted in the past. Perhaps this time is different...eh? We'll see...I'll think about it.

[bush_cheney2004]

Islam's motive as an ideology. Islam is more an insecure f-you to the other two 'book religions' than anything based on peace and love. Big Mo was a very insecure fellow who didn't take kindly to mocking...be in song, dance or poetry...or political commentary.

True...I would lose my head immediately, despite my Muhammad Ali tattoo. That's why we haven't seen a Blackadder sitcom for Islam.

[DogOnPorch]

The native tribes, violent themselves, would say otherwise.

Early Christianity = before Constantine.

[DogOnPorch]

True...I would lose my head immediately, despite my Muhammad Ali tattoo. That's why we haven't seen a Blackadder sitcom for Islam.

You and me both BC....heads on stakes in the town square as ISIS takes photos.

[GostHacked]

I rarely start threads as they've been deleted in the past. Perhaps this time is different...eh? We'll see...I'll think about it.

I've had posts deleted, but never threads I've started. Might be in your approach and/or execution of it all.

But it also seems like every religious texts have some form of violence in one form or another

[Hal 9000]

The gist of my arguments is that people all over world are similar (not the same), there are both good and bad in every group, and some extremists in every group. Selecting one group as being 'worse' than all the others is bound to fail, since all groups are composed of people.

Well, I don't think I've ever claimed that women's rights are the same the world over.

I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world, and that at the moment other forms of terror are more prevalent in the Western world than is Islamic terrorism, although that may change in the future. I've also said that from the perspective of innocents killed/maimed by Western drones and bombs, we look just like terrorists.

Do you mind if i use this quote in my signature?

[DogOnPorch]

I've had posts deleted, but never threads I've started. Might be in your approach and/or execution of it all.

But it also seems like every religious texts have some form of violence in one form or another

Right...all religions are exactly the same. We have a serious problem with Christians making us fat with their bake sales.

[On Guard for Thee]

Within Islam it's understood that the "correct" interpretation of the Quran is that of Mohammed, their most significant prophet. The Quran is based on his revelations, and the correct model for Muslims to follow is the life that Mohammed lead. It's written in the Hadith, which is basically a biography of Mohammed.

Christians obviously emulate/follow the life/teachings of Jesus Christ more than any of the prophets, they believe Jesus was the Son of God.

Get to know more about those two and then revisit this topic. It's epiphany time.

I know enough about it to know there is disparity between interpretations of the Quran.