French Magazine Attacked by Terrorists

[Rue]

Why would you not show a pic of god? Why would you not even say god .. do you say GOD in public or do you edit it out and say .. i believe in g-d??

Are you afraid of god?

Again you try engage someone in personal conversation. Go off board if you want to discuss his religion.

[marcus]

Yes, life in France is so good for the Jews they need police with automatic weapons to guard their schools.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/frances-new-anti-semitism/article22423577/

http://news.nationalpost.com/2015/01/13/norman-lebrecht-france-for-jews-cest-termine/

You have a habit of pressing reply like you are going to reply, but you respond with something that has nothing to do with what you're quoting.

Speaking of France and foxnews and their mouthpieces:

Edited January 16, 2015 by marcus

[Rue]

Interesting choice of words. But every time your opinions are challenged, you call the challenger an anti-semite.

If and when I have challenged an opinion as anti semitic, I have specifically explained why and shown the words that failed to differentiate between Jews and alleged Israeli state policies.

Your attempt now to misrepresent the times I have done that to be an exercise in calling anyone an anti-semite who have ever challengesd my opinions on this board speaks for itself.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Rue

[guyser]

Now knock off the personal attacks

Oh my....do as I say and not as I do.

Got it.

Carry on rantboy I mean rue

Edited January 16, 2015 by Guyser2

[Rue]

You have a habit of pressing reply like you are going to reply, but you respond with something that has nothing to do with what you're quoting.

delete

Edited January 16, 2015 by Rue

[bush_cheney2004]

I have shown you that French Muslims are less interested in joining church and state than Americans are, and you come in with your grouping of Muslims as a global band of brothers. Do you want to use statistics or not ?

Stated again...what do you mean by this ? How is it related to Americans....or Canadians (i.e. see preamble to Charter of Rights and Freedoms) ?

[Rue]

_{"Came from" is the wording you used, and that's ambiguous. It seems to me to attribute root cause. "Related to" doesn't mean much, really. Of course the violence is related to the religion.}

_{Yah thanks I got it MH. Thanks for the response and this is why I said in my earlier response and I quote:}

_{"Now once they all come to France, they melt or or compress into a greater French cultural milieu that treats all French regardless of colour and background equally as rude depending on your blood line.}

_{Add to that high unemployment and the social mess that comes with overcrowding in condensed run down apartments, and how much of that is simply Muslim extremist beliefs is hard to know."}

_{So I was deliberate in not trying to type cast all behaviour being manifested as Muslim extremist.}

_{That said what is this word "root cause".}

_{That is a Justin Trudeau phrase. Sounds nice. "Root cause".}

_{Anyone who knows anything about human behaviour knows though there is no one root cause to anything. All behaviour is part of a chain of never ending inter-related cause and effects and a mix of genetic predisposition and learned and/or environmentally influenced behaviours.}

_{Social scientists have been writing papers on French society and discrimination within it for centuries.}

_{The point is, at this current time Muslim extremism exists. If you want to argue its root cause is unemployment, intolerance by non Muslims to Muslims in France, Israel, Jews, Zionists, or anything you want to put an "ist" or "ism" at the end of be my guest.}

_{My point is it does not justify omitting the Islamic nature of the terrorism we saw and the role that religion and Muslims play in carrying it out.}

_{I appreciate its politically correct to portray everyone (except Zionists) as victims and the root cause of terrorism being colonialism, bad white man behaviour, the Christian crusades, etc.}

_{Yah I get it.}

[Shady]

How do we know what French Muslims think?

[GostHacked]

If and when I have challenged an opinion as anti semitic, I have specifically explained why and shown the words that failed to differentiate between Jews and alleged Israeli state policies.

You failed to prove it each time. As you failed to prove others you accuse of anti-semitism.

Your attempt now to misrepresent the times I have done that to be an exercise in calling anyone an anti-semite who have ever challengesd my opinions on this board speaks for itself.

Speaks more about you than me. How many times have you tossed out the anti-semite card on someone?

Your attempts to bait me or JBG or anyone else on this thread are falling flat. If you have nothing to say to the issue and feel the need to bait me or JBG or anyone else take it off line.

Why not just come out and call me a troll too? Who else am I baiting? I don't like to do things 'offline'. I prefer to have my remarks and yours out in the open for comparison. I'll leave it up to the reader to decide what is what.

[GostHacked]

How do we know what French Muslims think?

How do you know what anyone thinks?

[Rue]

You failed to prove it each time. As you failed to prove others you accuse of anti-semitism.

Speaks more about you than me. How many times have you tossed out the anti-semite card on someone?

Why not just come out and call me a troll too? Who else am I baiting? I don't like to do things 'offline'. I prefer to have my remarks and yours out in the open for comparison. I'll leave it up to the reader to decide what is what.

Ghost this thread is not about me. If you want to start a thread accusing me of things go ahead.

[GostHacked]

Ghost this thread is not about me. If you want to start a thread accusing me of things go ahead.

Then stop making it about you, or me. Let's discuss things and drop the f'n name calling. I'll man up, can you?

[Michael Hardner]

How do we know what French Muslims think?

Argus uses polls to tell us how Muslim thinks. I don't agree with that, but if it works for him I can provide polls from the same polling company.

[Shady]

Argus uses polls to tell us how Muslim thinks. I don't agree with that, but if it works for him I can provide polls from the same polling company.

No worries, I didn't see the poll provided regarding French Muslims. I'll will look back.

[Rue]

Then stop making it about you, or me. Let's discuss things and drop the f'n name calling. I'll man up, can you?

If you want me to say that I should not have not resdponde to Big Guy as I did yes I would say directly to Big Guy I should have redirected my responses to a more general response. I thought they were in direct response to what I had just said. So I am sorry if I interpreted them that way causing that response to appear to Bug Guy to be an attack on him personally.

I think Big Guy with due respect the point I made remains, we can criticize Islam and its relation to Muslim extremism-it doesn't mean we fear Islam or are bigots or any of the other generalizations you threw out.

I think it is bigoted to make unstanstantiated negative general assumptions about anyone yes.

As for your comments directed at me Ghost I tried my best to be restrained in my responses we should both refrain from such comments.

I am glad you made an effort to respond to me and ask me to stop with you. We both should. Neither of us needs a moderator to say cool it.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Rue

[WIP]

I think part of the problem here is that some people actually think Muslims are a race.

Anyone can be a Muslim. Not anyone can be a black person or gay, for example.

If virtually everyone in France who is of Algerian ancestry is a Muslim, then you have no justifiable claim that you can condemn religion without condemning its adherents! That is the greatest failing of Charlie Hebdo....that's exactly what they were trying to pretend they were doing....upholding French secular values and attacking all religion equally. But they were not, according to those who have taken the time to go through their publications in recent years. Also, attacking the religion of privileged majorities....and privileged minorities in some cases, is different than attacking the religion of despised minorities.

The biggest fraud perpetrated by so called secularists...specifically today's atheist humanists, is that the problems begin and end with religious beliefs and religious affiliations. In actual fact, if every North African in France became an atheist or joined a different religion, they will still not be regarded as really French by the majority or the Government. They would still be dark foreigners and reminders of France's colonial past, especially their 7 year war to cling to power in Algeria, where they killed an estimated 1.5 million Algerians! Changing their religion would not get most of them out of the ghettos surrounding Paris and Marseilles! But, this is all besides the point anyway, because the only pathway out of organized religions of any type, is when a person or group of people start losing interest in them...see them as increasingly irrelevant to their lives....as most French Catholics have done, who see their religion as not serving a useful purpose. But, if you keep people segregated by whatever means, and maintain varying levels of hostility towards them, the last thing they are going to do is abandon their faiths!

A case in point might be Jews in America, whom many Jewish leaders panic about over the last three decades are becoming less involved with Judaism and more atheistic. This did not happen over the course of Jewish history in Europe for a 2000 year period, when being Jewish meant living under threat of death at any moment.

Any honest-intentioned secularists...whatever their metaphysical beliefs, who want either a drawing away from Islam or a less militant Islam, have to begin by lowering the level of hostility towards Muslims/ not increasing it, as is done every time there is some Muslim somewhere involved in a shooting, or joins some rebel group in the Middle East that claims to be waging jihad against foreign invaders.

If I wanted to give up reason and science and embrace ideas from the 7th century then I, too, could be a Muslim.

Which has become the new religion for those who embrace American exceptionalism and its European clones! The core tenet of atheist-humanism today is worship of technology and faith in a star trek-like future provided by the right inventions being created and manufactured just in time to lead the way to a better and brighter future! To me, modern techno-optimism...especially transhumanism is more irrational and unsupported with any evidence than any religious doctrines I've ever heard of!

So, when you do a cartoon that is against Jews (also a religion more so than a race although most agree to some kind of "ethnicity") that is like doing a cartoon about black people or gays.

The situation for Jews in Europe is only slightly better than that of Muslim immigrants! They may be a wealthier, better connected community politically, but France still has a wide-ranging anti-Semitic streak wrapped up with its sense of nationalism and French identity that exists beyond the far right of French politics.

Nevertheless, holocaust denial is not protected as free speech in France, along with bans on wearing niqaabs....so, women it seems don't have complete freedom to dress the way they prefer. I mentioned previously that so called freedom-luvin France violated international law by trying to board the Bolivian president's plane because the CIA told them they had Edward Snowden on board. What good is free speech when it's only for freedom to be obscene or vulgar, but not freedom to learn what your government is doing and planning to do which they want to keep secret from the public?

Admittedly, the Jewish question is a hard one (oooohhhhh, am I going to get censored for that really bad pun?) [For the record, I do think the Holocaust happened although I have doubts as to what extent Israel should "exist" - I defer to Sam Harris on this as I pretty much agree with his take]

Modern Israel-worshipping Jewish and Christian Zionists believe that Israel has the right to slowly exterminate the population of Gaza and ethnically cleanse the West Bank, and any time any objections are raised, out comes that holocaust card to be played! As if it provides everlasting immunity for Israel's own war crimes!

Edited January 16, 2015 by WIP

[Argus]

Modern Israel-worshipping Jewish and Christian Zionists believe that Israel has the right to slowly exterminate the population of Gaza and ethnically cleanse the West Bank, and any time any objections are raised, out comes that holocaust card to be played! As if it provides everlasting immunity for Israel's own war crimes!

Would like to demonstrate how much the Arab population of Gaza and the West Bank has fallen over the past thirty years of occupation?

I'm sure that would add some much-needed oomph to your opinion!

[-1=e^ipi]

In actual fact, if every North African in France became an atheist or joined a different religion, they will still not be regarded as really French by the majority or the Government.

Maybe not, but there would certainly be no terrorists killing people for drawing cartoons.

A case in point might be Jews in America, whom many Jewish leaders panic about over the last three decades are becoming less involved with Judaism and more atheistic. This did not happen over the course of Jewish history in Europe for a 2000 year period, when being Jewish meant living under threat of death at any moment.

Correlation does not imply causation. Many other unique phenomena in human history have occurred over the past few decades. Did people have access to the internet for most of the past 2000 years?

Any honest-intentioned secularists...whatever their metaphysical beliefs, who want either a drawing away from Islam or a less militant Islam, have to begin by lowering the level of hostility towards Muslims/ not increasing it, as is done every time there is some Muslim somewhere involved in a shooting, or joins some rebel group in the Middle East that claims to be waging jihad against foreign invaders.

Interesting how you label criticism as 'hostility'.

Maybe we should become like Saudi Arabia and give people like Raif Badawi 1,000 lashes and life imprisonment (if the lashes don't kill him) for simply creating a blog and a Saudi Free Liberals forum. Will that cause people to slowly convert from Islam even though doing so is a death penalty there?

The reason religion is on the decline in the West is because of freedom of speech and the right to criticize ridiculous belief systems. Many religious apologists want to create 'restrictions' on free speech when it comes to religion because these criticisms 'hurt their feelings' due to their entire belief system being based on emotion and not reason or evidence.

The core tenet of atheist-humanism today is worship of technology and faith in a star trek-like future provided by the right inventions being created and manufactured just in time to lead the way to a better and brighter future! To me, modern techno-optimism...especially transhumanism is more irrational and unsupported with any evidence than any religious doctrines I've ever heard of!

Since when has this been a 'core tenant' of 'atheist-humanism'?

along with bans on wearing niqaabs....so, women it seems don't have complete freedom to dress the way they prefer.

I can't dress naked and expect not to be arrested. Do I not have the freedom to dress how I want? Is this even a 'freedom' that needs to be guaranteed under the law? What is the basis of having a freedom to dress however you want? Freedom of expression allows for a free market place of ideas where ideas can compete and the best ideas can come out on top. The free market place of ideas has a very clear benefit for society. I don't see freedom to dress however you want in any circumstance as comparable.

I mentioned previously that so called freedom-luvin France violated international law by trying to board the Bolivian president's plane because the CIA told them they had Edward Snowden on board.

International law is not absolute and Law != Freedom.

What good is free speech when it's only for freedom to be obscene or vulgar, but not freedom to learn what your government is doing and planning to do which they want to keep secret from the public?

So you think there should be a freedom to know all of the government's classified information? Look, I'm all for more government transparency, but to go as far as to say that knowing government information should be comparable to freedom of speech is ridiculous.

any time any objections are raised, out comes that holocaust card to be played!

Yes, just like the islamaphobia card is played if one criticisms islamism, or the sexism card is played if one advocates for men's rights, the racism card is played if one opposes affirmative action and thinks everyone should be treated equally under the law, or the colonialism card is played if one opposes the reserve system. Welcome to the politically-correct west where people call you names to try to silence you rather engage your ideas directly!

[-TSS-]

There is nothing bad about people shedding the shackles of superstition. Christianity and islam can be compared in ways that a couple of hundred years ago in Europe if you said that religion is rubbish you were hanged. With islam they are still at that stage. Hopefully they will catch us a bit faster.

[Rue]

.

i- ....Also, attacking the religion of privileged majorities....and privileged minorities in some cases, is different than attacking the religion of despised minorities.

2-... if you keep people segregated by whatever means, and maintain varying levels of hostility towards them, the last thing they are going to do is abandon their faiths!

3-Any honest-intentioned secularists...whatever their metaphysical beliefs, who want either a drawing away from Islam or a less militant Islam, have to begin by lowering the level of hostility towards Muslims/ not increasing it, as is done every time there is some Muslim somewhere involved in a shooting, or joins some rebel group in the Middle East that claims to be waging jihad against foreign invaders

4-The situation for Jews in Europe is only slightly better than that of Muslim immigrants! They may be a wealthier, better connected community politically, but France still has a wide-ranging anti-Semitic streak wrapped up with its sense of nationalism and French identity that exists beyond the far right of French politics.

5-Modern Israel-worshipping Jewish and Christian Zionists believe that Israel has the right to slowly exterminate the population of Gaza and ethnically cleanse the West Bank, and any time any objections are raised, out comes that holocaust card to be played! As if it provides everlasting immunity for Israel's own war crimes!

I regards to 1 your argument is illogical-a religion's defficiencies are questioned based on their doctrines;

In regards to 2, your thesis is again defective because it assumes that someone other than Muslims keeps them segregated-in your thesis you fail to account for the fact that this segragation could also be caused by Muslims choosing to keep themselves segregated based on their Muslim religious doctrine that tells them to, thereby fueling resentment towards them.

In both 1 and 2 your suppositions are also defective in that you may be assuming Muslims are despised when it might be they are not, receiving messages of resentment from those who perceive them as refusing to assimilate.

In regards to 3- you proposed a politicall correct protoype called the "honest intention securalist" but interestingly could not define further what they SHOULD think.

However in that posing of your prototype you did throw out the stereotype that ANYONE who criticizes Islam is unable to distinguish non terrorist or non extremist Muslims from the terrorist and extremist Muslims without any proof for this negative stereotype.

In regards to 4,this discussion as to whether religion can be criticized has nothing to do with Jews in France, Zionism or holocaust denial laws which you seem to have arbitrarily thrown in but then failed to connect in any way to criticism of religiion.

You falsely equated France's holocaust denial law as preventing criticism of the Jewish religion in an attempt to state Jews are treated better legally than Muslims. Your equation is false. That law does not and was never drafted to prevent criticism of the Jewish religion.

In fact if that was the case Charlie Hebdo wouldn't have been able to run the non stop series of anti ZIonist cartoons that used characters that drew on classic anti semitic concepts of what a Jew looks like.

The law that that denies the holocaust doesnot and had never prevented criticism of Judaism the religion or for that matters Jews as people. Please read it.

What it does is make it a crime to say the holocaust did not happen because not just Jews, but non Jews died in France during the holocaust and there are visible physical reminders of that time period and their suffering still in existence that cause pain and sorrow and to deny they exist would cause a re-activatin of bad memories and pain and suffering to the survivors and the descendants of those who died in the holocaust and also those who died fighting for France against Germany not to mention reviving anger towards those French who collaborated with the Nazis and their descendants. So you are just dead wrong to state holocaust denial laws curtail criticizing Jewish religion. Its not what they do or were intended for.

People do everyday criticize the Jewish religion starting first with Jews. You are clearly oblivious to it but the Talmud was designed so that Jews continually challenge and criticize our religion. Our religion has a built in critical process that never ends and is designed deliebrately to constantly question and through that questioning push our religon to evolve. That is huge religious difference than with Islam where there is no equivalent of the Talmud a book that was created to commence a non stop process to create law through challenging it by questioning. The socratic method comes fromt the Talmudic method which probably inherited it from other predecessors.

You completely misunderstand that Jews expect and are supposed to accept and live with criticism. In fact the ultra orthodox go so far as to say any injustice against us is divine retribution. We in fact have a masochistic religion which believes we suffer because God wants us to.

How that translates is entirely different than Islamic thought and so you do not see Jews engaging in terrorist cells killing people.

In fact in universities across France, theologians and their stuidents question and compare all kinds of religious dogma. Seminars with inter-faith clergy challenging certain precepts are part of higher education. They are a critical part of the evolution of religious thought and no one storms out of these inter-faith debates and then goes and kills people.

Your comments in 4 also fail to distinguish the fact that the chauvenism particular to France is complex. To simply call it anti-semtiic or anti Muslim is just not true. Its far wider in application of definition of exclusivity, i.e., who is superior to who.

In regards to 5, you made a false, bigoted, sweeping, insulting statement that assumes you know what all Zionists think and all ZIonists are engaging in the genocide of the people of Gaza. Interestingly you accuse Zionists of genocide the same crime Nazis engaged in then claim, it is Zionists who play the holocaust card when it was you who raised it through the tactic of holocaust inversion, i.e., by equating Zionist beliefs to the practice of genocide of innocent people ergo Nazism.

Zionism isn't a religious belief.

Show where it says in Zionism it teaches that Jews are better than non Jews and should never live with them and show where it defines Christians and Muslims as inferior infidel,khafir infidel, as Islam does with Jews and Christians.

You can not because it does not. It makes no mention of religion. It defines Jews as a national people not a religious entity it is Islam not Judaism that defines Islam as being both. That is a huge and fundamental difference. A Muslim can not be a Muslim if they do not live in a sharia law state says the Koran. The Bible did not say that and Judaism does not in any of its doctrines say that.

In fact the very precept of Zionism requires that Muslim and Christians in Israel have all the rights and protection Jews do not have in Muslim states. It seperates church from state for non Jews AND for Jews. a Jew does not have to be practicing Judaism to be considered a Jew in Israel unlike in Sharia law states where you can not be a citizen unless you are a Muslim believer.

Israel was created as a refuge from anti-semitis. It did not say Jews had to believe in Judaism not did it state Jews could not live in non Jewish countries or they can't live in countries and be asked to follow non Jewish laws as Islam ssays.

Zionism was about creating a safe haven for Jews who NEED it to escape persecution for being perceived as deserving hatred simply because we are identified as Jews. Zionism doesn't test the persecution to see if it criticizes the Jewish religion.

Unlike Islam, Judaism does not preach the world must be onr unified Jewish state run by a Jewish council as Islam does.

Judaism does not have prayers that thank us for defeating Christians and Muslims in war.

The Koran has 109 passages that call for war.

In the Bible the only reference to war is as defence and never to be initiated.

Judaism does not define non believers as infidel, khafir and dhimmi like Islam. We do not have a codified set of laws that define Muslims as inferior and having to die or convert or agree to pay tax to be allowed to live as Islam does with Jews.

For that matter to say Zionism allows genocide and its followers practice and believe it is a falsehood. It is an absolute and utter lie.

I challenge you to find a passage that states genocide is acceptable let alone war that is not in self defence is acceptable.

It does not exist.

Muslims engaged in terrorism in France. They claimed Muhammed was insutled and this gave them the right to engage in terror.

One went on video and made it clear he was a member of a terror cell thart funded the terror attacks.

The two brothers openly stated they were avenging Islam.

So to now argue we can't criticize their form of Islamic beliefs is absurd and to try change the topic to make false statements or representations about Jews and Zionists is literally not the point.

If Jews had done this and attacked people for drawing a picture of Moses and kidnapped and killed Christians in a rampage related to it, of course people would have the right to criticize anything in Judaism that could be said to lend to that kind of thinking.

This was not a crime done by Jews or Christians in the name of either religion but it is a crime that was done by people claiming it in the name of Islam and for that it must be openly challenged.

I believe all religions have to be questioned and constantly challenged as they have authoritative structures that become corupted and unaccountable if their followers don't challenge them and demand transparency and consistency.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Rue

[jbg]

Fine then. Drop the comparison- french Muslims have high regard for Christians and low support for Sharia

The police officer, true enough. The attackers? Hardly.

[Michael Hardner]

The police officer, true enough. The attackers? Hardly.

Are you trying to say the most obvious thing about the facts at the scene of the attack ? If so, then ok.

This thread is about people drawing larger conclusions, such as the 80% support for Sharia law cited here.

[msj]

If virtually everyone in France who is of Algerian ancestry is a Muslim, then you have no justifiable claim that you can condemn religion without condemning its adherents!

Don't see how any of this follows. One cannot choose ones nationality of birth as that is chosen by where one's mother happens to be when one is born.

One can choose what one believes even if indoctrinated as a child and through cultural transmission.

All the more reason cartoons of the Prophet should be allowed so that people subject to theocratic states can view ideas critical of their state for which many nominal Muslims share with other secularists.

That is, there are likely many "Muslims" who prefer freedom and separation of Church and State so they too can call themselves what they really are: atheist, humanists, secularists, and/or agnostics (or members of a religion who happen to believe in freedom over forcing others to live by any particular religion or ideological belief system such as communism or fascism).

The biggest fraud perpetrated by so called secularists...specifically today's atheist humanists, is that the problems begin and end with religious beliefs and religious affiliations....

Any honest-intentioned secularists...whatever their metaphysical beliefs, who want either a drawing away from Islam or a less militant Islam, have to begin by lowering the level of hostility towards Muslims/ not increasing it, as is done every time there is some Muslim somewhere involved in a shooting, or joins some rebel group in the Middle East that claims to be waging jihad against foreign invaders.

Which has become the new religion for those who embrace American exceptionalism and its European clones! The core tenet of atheist-humanism today is worship of technology and faith in a star trek-like future provided by the right inventions being created and manufactured just in time to lead the way to a better and brighter future! To me, modern techno-optimism...especially transhumanism is more irrational and unsupported with any evidence than any religious doctrines I've ever heard of!

Spare me the lecture on what my intentions are, whether they are "honest" or not, the extent of my alleged "hostility" towards Muslims, and what you think I believe.

Nothing more than a disguised ad hominem attack and I'm calling you out on it.

Edited January 17, 2015 by msj

[Boges]

So Muslims protesting Charlie Hebdo kill 4 people in Africa. Slow Clap Islam

[Argus]

So Muslims protesting Charlie Hebdo kill 4 people in Africa. Slow Clap Islam

More than a dozen now. They're burning churches to express their outrage that others aren't respecting their religion...