French Magazine Attacked by Terrorists

[eyeball]

I don't think you can get what you say straight. It started with a link I posted of a column by a respected historian who pointed out how the appeasement attitude toward Muslim extremist acts and the rise of antisemitism is eerily similar to the 1930's. Instead of giving it some thought and taking issue with its content, you write it off as war mongering.

Bull pucks. I clearly took issue with the thrust of your article when I commented that GW Bush (and I could have included a number of other world leaders) should have been added to the lineup of suspects pictured in the article. Your respected historian must have ignored all that because like you and most of your ilk, you automatically maintain that the West is entirely blameless, has done absolutely nothing wrong and is the perennially hapless victim of a never ending string of Axis' of Tyranny, Evil, Terror, whatever. It's the ultimate form of appeasement to a ridiculously and outrageously misplaced sense of innocence.

What happened to N. Korea by the way, are they with us now or something? We've been keeping some awfully strange company on the world stage these days so it seems like a fair question.

As far a jbg goes, you made it quite clear you don't care what he thinks either.

Why would you say that? I agreed with him Europe is a death trap for Jews. I didn't agree with him that Jews are exceptional because I don't think any group of humans are.

And that brings us back to why you think the West is so bloody exceptional and what moral justification you have for believing so?

[Wilber]

I've never maintained the west is blameless and I have stated on this very thread I believe that Bush 2's invasion of Iraq is possibly the greatest blunder a US president has ever made but do you seriously believe that sending him to the Hague for whatever you think might happen would have any effect on what the likes of ISIS thinks or does?

So you agree jbq that Europe a death trap for Jews but don't let that detract from those poor European Muslims. How many places have European Jews shot up or bombed by the way? Maybe you would be more sympathetic toward them if they did.

The West is far from perfect in the way it has dealt with others at times but to use your words, unlike "your ilk" I don't wallow in self guilt believing that it or I am responsible for the actions of everyone else on the planet.

Edited February 23, 2015 by Wilber

[eyeball]

I've never maintained the west is blameless and I have stated on this very thread I believe that Bush 2's invasion of Iraq is possibly the greatest blunder a US president has ever made but do you seriously believe that sending him to the Hague for whatever you think might happen would have any effect on what the likes of ISIS thinks or does?

I was thinking of an audience much much larger than ISIS. The entire Muslim world needs a demonstration of Western accountability for a period of time longer than the last 14 years.

So you agree jbq that Europe a death trap for Jews but don't let that detract from those poor European Muslims. How many places have European Jews shot up or bombed by the way? Maybe you would be more sympathetic toward them if they did.

I don't know why you're bent on doing all this differentiating, Europe is as much a death trap for Muslims too and for the same reason. I'm as concerned for both peoples. Europe has been a death trap twice now for us too. When is enough blood shed over that place finally going to be enough?

The West is far from perfect in the way it has dealt with others at times but to use your words, unlike "your ilk" I don't wallow in self guilt believing that it or I am responsible for the actions of everyone else on the planet.

Until the attitude that western depredations were merely 'less that perfect' and nothing to feel guilty about, this war will only grow, expand, become more hateful and eventually consume us all. Edited February 24, 2015 by eyeball

[Rue]

Netanyahu never described Jews or Israelis as exceptional. Jews let alone Israelis do not speak that way. We do not. If it is actually said it means the exact opposite and meant as ridicule which is why Netanyahu never said that. Eye provide the statement where he said that,. He did not.

He did and I disagree with him tell Jews to leave Europe for Israel saying he could guarantee their safety in Israel.He did that for domestic consumption reasons as he is in an election and that was probably pre election rhetoric.

I think he went too far. I think he took a tragedy and exploited it for personal political image gains at home and I think that went over the line.

l also think it violated basic protocol between friendly nations.He insulted France, Denmark, basically European nations he should not be alienating.

Israel can not afford to think it can go it alone in this day and age. Israel and all Western nations need each other if they are to beat the terrorist game.

He insulted allies he needs to work with against terrorism.

Do I think Europe is a death trap. No, and neither to a majority of the world's Jews. If we adapted the mentality that the world is a death trap then we are already dead.

The world is not a death trap. For the most part it has people who want peace.

Netanyahu knows better. We can not under an circumstance adapt defeatist, persecution complexes. That means terrorists have won.

No terrorist forces me or any Jew let alone should it force any one to run anywhere in fear. That is exactly what they want-to instill fear and polarize people.

I defend Israel's right to exist as a Jewish nation, but no its leader,Mr.Netanyahu can not tell me I must live in Israel to feel safe. Now I know he directed his comments at France, but it was wrong. Its an insult to French who are against terrorism.

That is just my personal opinion.

Fair is fair.Criticize Netanyahu for exploiting the attack, for probable political domestic use, but no its bs to say he referred to Jews as extraordinary. He did not.

That bs Eye threw in is a back handed attempt to once again recycle the myth that Jews think we are chosen as in special. Its a crock. Its an attempt to throw in a false reference to incite resentment against Jews to try recast them not as victims of terrorists but as deserving of being attacked for thinking we are better than anyone else. That is a crock.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Rue

[Big Guy]

I do not understand why there is any controversy on this topic.

It is well known that Catholics are "Gods Chosen People" and specially selected by God to share his/her views with the rest of the world. It is obvious through history where Catholics have actually coined the phrase "Gods Chosen People".

The Pope continues to ... What? Excuse me? You say that it is not the Catholics who claim to be God's chosen people?

Pity.

[jbg]

I didn't agree with him that Jews are exceptional because I don't think any group of humans are.

I said that our connection to the Holy Land is exceptional. As Golda Meir said, G-d gave us the only part of the ME that has no oil (well it sort of does now).

[Rue]

In my opinion the Jews should leave continental Europe. They have no future there. In fact the continent has been one monumental graveyard or crematory for Jews since they arrived.

I respectfully disagree. I think for Israel to survive as a Jewish nation it needs a Jewish diaspora in Europe, North America and across the world.

I also do not think it is realistic to think the Jews of the world can all move to Israel. Its not practically possible.

[Hudson Jones]

I said that our connection to the Holy Land is exceptional. As Golda Meir said, G-d gave us the only part of the ME that has no oil (well it sort of does now).

Neither God or Golda are the land owners or realtors and their announcements do not trump the right of the people who have been living there for centuries. Most Russian and European Jews have no connection to the "Holy Land". There is nothing exceptional about it.

[GostHacked]

Fair is fair.Criticize Netanyahu for exploiting the attack, for probable political domestic use, but no its bs to say he referred to Jews as extraordinary. He did not.

He is a politician. He will exploit anything if it benefits him (first) and Israel (second). Not unlike any other leader of a country.

[Rue]

Yes Ghost I agree with that. He's being a typical politician. He knows how to posture for domestic consumption on the nightly news.

[jbg]

I respectfully disagree. I think for Israel to survive as a Jewish nation it needs a Jewish diaspora in Europe, North America and across the world.

I also do not think it is realistic to think the Jews of the world can all move to Israel. Its not practically possible.

There aren't that many Jews left in Continental Europe. Really not a big deal; unless they're butchered.

[jbg]

Neither God or Golda are the land owners or realtors and their announcements do not trump the right of the people who have been living there for centuries. Most Russian and European Jews have no connection to the "Holy Land". There is nothing exceptional about it.

The shifting of Poland westward, and dislocation of Germans in the West and Poles in the east doesn't seem to bother you. Ditto Chinese occupation of Tibet.

[Mighty AC]

This 13 minute talk by Sam Harris on this topic is a must listen. In my opinion, his reasoning is flawless. I'd interested to hear if anyone disagrees, especially if you're liberal, with any aspect of his talk.

[eyeball]

At best all Harris has done is to highlight how reluctant even some liberals are to admit how the West's economic and geo political fanaticism has caused some really ugly aspects of Islam to metastasize into the virulent form now confronting the world.

I'm appalled at how timid and soft liberals and our opposition is on root causes and blow back in the context of terrorism. I'd be able to take Harris a lot more seriously if he was casting an equal pox on both houses in other words, if he was also calling for western war criminals to be turned over to the Hague along with the other extremists on the Islamic side.

I'm all for ridiculing extremism, religiosity, ideology...even biology given how freaking pathetic the human species and it's condition is.

Edited March 8, 2015 by eyeball

[marcus]

If Harris was really about righteousness and complete freedom of speech, then he would have said something about what happened just after the attack in Paris - His dumbed down, selective take of situations is telling. I don't trust his views.:

Link

In a tribute to the French magazine a day after the massacre at its editorial offices, the Berlin daily published several of Charlie Hebdo's past cover pages.

One of them, however, was a fake, showing a cartoon drawn by the anti-Semitic illustrator Joe le Corbeau. The cartoon showed an orthodox Jew, with a caption saying “1 million rebate out of six, for Palestine.” The word “rebate” is a wordplay suggesting rabbis and rebate in German.

Berliner Zeitung a day later apologized for posting the cartoon.

"Je suis hypocrite."

Edited March 8, 2015 by marcus

[Hudson Jones]

The shifting of Poland westward, and dislocation of Germans in the West and Poles in the east doesn't seem to bother you. Ditto Chinese occupation of Tibet.

You're distracting yourself and others with your mumble jumble.

You said:

I said that our connection to the Holy Land is exceptional. As Golda Meir said, G-d gave us the only part of the ME that has no oil (well it sort of does now).

This is some of the crap that Zionists use as excuse for good old colonization and violation of international law.

[Rue]

JBG he likes to speek on behalf of "others". Maybe he sees dead people.

Now me I dig dah mumbo jumbo. Interesting how this man likes to call anything that he can't debate "distracting".Lol.

Now my fine Zionist colleague, you know I believe Israel cannot exist without a stong disaspora.You know the Reform Jewish position probably even better then me so I will refrain from repeating it.

Look I do not like all of Jewish existence simply reliant on Israel. I think that is an unrealistic load for them to bare alone. I think its important Jews int he disaspora reach out to Muslims, Christians,Hindus, whoever and whatever and show in our every day behaviour to them how we want them to treat us-respect, tolerance, peace.

We have the luxury to do that in Canada and may I say the US an Europe.It is a gift democracy has given to us and we must be part of.

Israel can not exist without Muslim, Christian,Hindu, etc., friends.

We need to reach out.

The last thing we need to do is let a bunch of pathetic loser terrorists, scare us into a ghetto of fear.

Israel yes it was created because as you know no one wanted us at the time. the US only took in less then 200,000 Jews during and after WW2.

France as you know took in the most Jews. Today there is what about 7 million in the US, and 5 million in France, and I believe Argentina is the third largest Jewish population.

Those communities are a vital component in making friends with non Jews and in supporting Israel.

Our communities may be small in Europe but they are important. They are our ambassadors to the world.

I believe as do Reform Jews, in the disaspora, that we have a moral obligation as Jews to reach out to non Jews and form peaceful cooperation and

live side by side.

By sharing out strengths and admitting our weaknesses with each other we help heal the world.

I really believe that.

You know beneath all my anger towards the two faced drivel you have read, I believe our survival depends on honest, peaceloving Muslims, Christians, etc. They are our family, our future. We make each other better people by learning from each other.

Some of the people on this planet who made me a better Jew if I can say that are Christians, Muslims, etc.They are my teachers not just my friends.

As for the two bit sanctimonious holier then thou some of my best friends are Jews types, trust me, Groucho Marx was right.

So is Netanyahu its just man he knows how to stir the pot and could the little sob have just made that speech somewhere else. Lol.

Me thinks though Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan,UAE,Kuwait, got the message loud and clear. If for no other reason he had to make that speech for them to hear.

Me personally, I think the deal is a sham and everyone in the Middle East and the EU, China, Russia, NATO know its a sham.

Obama is spent.No one takes him seriously. He is a lame duck on the last whiff of his own farts.

People are bracing for the next US regime which will fall back to a more traditional approach and turn back to S Arabia,Egypt.

I predict a Republican President mending fences with Egypt,S Arabia, Germany, Israel,Canada,Britain, France, distancing himself from Turkey

and very tough approach to terrorism.

In the interim terrorism in Mali,Nigeria,Sudan,Yemen, Syria, Iraq will rage, Turkey and Iran are going to face severe internal challenges to their governments, Russia and China are like the US going to experience severe recessions and market collapses as their debts overwhelm them.

To me China is on the brink of collapse and it would not surprise me to see food riots in Russia break out in the next year or so as well as China.

India I think will also flex its muscle if Iran gets the bomb. They consider Iran a threat to their merchant fleet and will be very very tense and could even get into a naval dispute with them.

I think that is one reason Germany sent Israel state of the art submarines who interestingly are basically advanced surveillance units underwater.

The EU knows Iran is a threat to merchant fleets with its navy.

But hey what do I know. Apparently I duzn't spell good even doze I clayms to be a loyer.

[Je suis Omar]

Satire offends all kinds of people but very few of those offended react with violence.

I agree. Safire did offend many people. Why did the NYT keep the idiot around for so long!!!

[jbg]

I agree. Safire did offend many people. Why did the NYT keep the idiot around for so long!!!

Satire and Safire are spelled differently. And Safire was a serious columnist, not a satirist.

[Je suis Omar]

Satire and Safire are spelled differently.

Omar: Really, jbg, spelled different, ya say?! I don't know how I can ever thank you.

And Safire was a serious columnist, not a satirist.

If you don't understand the meaning of "satire", you shudda just said so.

Safire was a lot of things, an idiot was just one of those things.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Je suis Omar

[Je suis Omar]

I predict a Republican President mending fences with Egypt,S Arabia, Germany, Israel,Canada,Britain, France, distancing himself from Turkey

and very tough approach to terrorism.

If the USA took a tough approach to terrorism, Rue, it'd have to send most of its CIA, its senate and house, the prezes, ... to its gulag in Guantanamo.

Wanton killing of innocent civilians is terrorism, not a war against terrorism.

NOAM CHOMSKY

It's not right to respond to terrorism by terrorizing other people. And furthermore, it's not going to help. Then you might say, "Yes, it's terrorizing people, but it's worth doing because it will end terrorism." But how much common sense does it take to know that you cannot end terrorism by indiscriminately dropping bombs?

HOWARD ZINN

[Rue]

So finish Omar. How do you end terrorism. Anyone can come on this board and chirp about what one should NOT do. Go on then, finish what you started. You want to lecture the forum on terrorism, please don't stop. What is the way to deal with it?

[Je suis Omar]

So finish Omar. How do you end terrorism. Anyone can come on this board and chirp about what one should NOT do. Go on then, finish what you started. You want to lecture the forum on terrorism, please don't stop. What is the way to deal with it?

Chirping is your province, Rue. If you can't figure it out from Chomsky and Zinn's quotes, then I can't help you.