Michael Hardner Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 There are at least twice an many Muslims in the U.S. than in France, but they are a smaller percentage of the general population. How is that relevant ? Edited to add: the comparison is with Americans of all faiths. The 80% number in favour of Sharia is being tossed around, when it can be shown that French Muslims appear to be more pluralistic, accepting of Christians, and less in favour of religious law that Americans *in general*. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) How is that relevant ? Sampling the entire "public" instead of U.S. Muslims and making comparisons to only French Muslims is problematic. A second order consideration is that Muslims are better integrated into U.S. society than in France, IMHO. Edited January 16, 2015 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Michael Hardner Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 There have been at least two items I've read, one at least I think I posted, which have said that the majority of prisoners in French prisons are Muslims. Do Muslims have a higher rate of crime in Canada? I don't know, since we don't get such stats, but if they do, well, another reason to prefer some other group. Ok, so you're saying we should use that principle in general ? Restrict American blacks from immigrating or visiting Canada too ? I'm just trying to apply a principle that you have laid out here. I also don't care about the reasons. You're admitting here that you'd rather supply the "reasons" from your own mind. majority of Muslim believers in the world have very violently backward social beliefs. Why risk importing that when we don't have to? More Americans believe in Christian Sharia than French Muslims, so we're ok there. And I would say the same of any other source immigrant group around the world, be it divided along cultural, ethnic, religious, or national lines. Hell, if it emerges left handers make worse immigrants then I'd say we should do without them too. We're going to restrict left handers but not by race ? Why didn't you put race in your list ? Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 Sampling the entire "public" instead of U.S. Muslims and making comparisons to only French Muslims is problematic. The thread is about France and the problems there. We've had Argus quoting the 80% "world Muslim" number all thread long and you didn't express any concerns. I'm trying trying to establish a benchmark without using the mousy words I've read here such as "many" "few" etc. If more Americans believe in Christian Sharia than French Muslims believe in Sharia Law Classic then we have a relative measure and all of us should feel safe in our beds right ? A second order consideration is that Muslims are better integrated into U.S. society than in France, IMHO. Why do you keep making this about America ? Isn't that supposed to be a Canadian thing to do ? I'm using "real" Americans as a benchmark of normalcy acceptable to "average" Canadians is all. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 ....Why do you keep making this about America ? Isn't that supposed to be a Canadian thing to do ? I'm using "real" Americans as a benchmark of normalcy acceptable to "average" Canadians is all. You already did, trying to draw some conclusion about France based on a Pew poll from 2006. Why would Americans be a benchmark acceptable to Canadians, who weren't even polled ? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Michael Hardner Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 You already did, trying to draw some conclusion about France based on a Pew poll from 2006. Why would Americans be a benchmark acceptable to Canadians, who weren't even polled ? Because we're the same, by and large. Adding american Muslims to the discussion is just confusing Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 I disagree...Americans are not surrogate Canadians, for this topic and many others. It's an interesting but flawed comparison to get a balanced view of French Muslim attitudes about Christians and Jews. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 Fine then. Drop the comparison- french Muslims have high regard for Christians and low support for Sharia Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 Fine then. Drop the comparison- french Muslims have high regard for Christians and low support for Sharia There 'ya go...much better. Sharia law is way overrated !! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Michael Hardner Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 Sharia law is way overrated !! French Muslims certainly think so. It makes sense, French Muslims are predominantly North African from former colonies and have been part of France for decades, as opposed to British Muslims who tend to be from places like Pakistan and not as integrated into British society. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Rue Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) There are 5 million people called Muslim in France. That's a hell of a lot of people.Yes you can say they would probably have roots in Morrocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Syria, Lebanon, Mali, Niger, Chad, Dahomey, Senegal, Cote D'Ivore. That's probably where you would trace them too, the former French Arab colonies so to speak, particularly Algeria,Morrocco and Tunisia but that is still right there a hell of a lot of difference in culture. I am no expert but I have been in Lebanon,Morrocco and Tunisia, and just those three nations, there is a hell of a lot of difference although obviously some French colonial tie in. Now once they all come to France, they melt or or compress into a greater French cultural milieu that treats all French regardless of colour and background equally as rude depending on your blood line. Add to that high unemployment and the social mess that comes with overcrowding in condensed run down apartments, and how much of that is simply Muslim extremist beliefs is hard to know. What is probable is that of that 5 million, obviously a specific segment of such people disaffected with an inabiiity to penetrate the French cultural barriers, turn to radical Islam to justify their anger at being rejected. We can talk all we want around it, but the terrorism we see from Muslims in France and elsewhere is originating from Muslim religion. Part of the problem is Islam has no central organ that monitors the training or subject content of what Imams teach. Anyone who is literate can call themselves an Imam or Mullah. So the discrepancy and range in how the Koran is interpreted is necessarily wide and therefore inconsistent and easier to have versions that take the 109 verses that already have violent terms in them and push them further out of context. The reform movement in Islam has not yet really begun as it did in Christianity and before that Judaism. Those who challenge mainstream Islam let alone conservative or extremist Islam are all condemned.You end up like our Muslim critics in Canada-you are turned into shunned Salman Rushdie like shadow figures who sacrifice their very lives to speak out. Our problem right now is the idiots who think they are helping moderate Muslims are patronizing them and enabling extremists to control them by taking on this impotent passive role of refusing to challenge Muslim extremism and Muslim religion for fear it looks intolerant. So bottom line is I don't give a phack what you want to classify it as but Islam the religion has to be challenged just as we do Christianity or Judaism or any other thought when people use those beliefs to be intolerant. Edited January 16, 2015 by Rue Quote
Michael Hardner Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 We can talk all we want around it, but the terrorism we see from Muslims in France and elsewhere is originating from Muslim religion. Why do you think that ? Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Big Guy Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 It is unfortunate that there are many in our society who are now trying to portray these latest disturbances as a new war between Christians and Muslims. For some reason they believe that Islam is some kind of evil mechanism by which people who are not like they are, are plotting to take over the world. This fear is then manifested in THEIR interpretation of Islam and their assumption of the causes of these attacks. The other unfortunate part is that they really believe this so the ignorant racists and bigots find a standard on which to fly their unwholesome flags. I assume that blaming the violence on the teachings of Islam is the simplest explanation for those who look for simple answers and an opportunity to blame "them" for the world problems. So be it. I guess it makes them feel better. Good for them. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Rue Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 Almedy Coulibaly stated in his video before the attack on the market his allegiance to the Islamic State and he claimed that state gave money to the Kouachi brothers to carry out their attacks. The brothers made it clear during their attacks they were avenging Allah and Muhammed for the insulting matter in which Muhammed was portrayed, These three individuals and the "wife" of Coulibaly all did what they did in the name of Islam. To suggest therefore this is not related to the Islamic religion and how it was interpreted by these 4, is illogical. Why you would even ask me the question is absurd. Yah I get it. If someone carries out an attack in the name of Islam, you think its not Islamic because you don't think other Islamic people follow their religion that way. That does not mean its not Islamic in nature. If that as a picture of Moses or Jesus in the cartoon no Jew or Christian would have been on the street attacking anyone. Save that if an Muslim is violent he is not a Muslim shtick. Quote
Rue Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) Big Guy stop couching your response to what I said and don't misquote me. I did not suggest any new war between Christians and Muslims. If anything the tensions between Islam and other religions is ancient as I have many times argued on this forum. Secondly don't project on me simplistic, rigid black and white analysis of Islam. Your brain may work that way mine does not. People like me do not fear Islam as you suggest simply because we challenge Muslim extremists and certain precepts of Islam. The fact is Islam has 109 verses that condone violence. 109. The fact is Islam should be criticized for those verses the same way we criticize Judaism or Christianity when verses in the Old or New Testament are used to condone violence. In fact your exercise of proclaiingm anyone who disagrees with you and your interpretation of Islam a bigot speaks for itself. You have no monopoly on righteousness and the fact that I or anyone else challenges organized religions does not make us a bigot but it does make you someone who needs to come on this board and engage in stereotyping of me and others as bigots and ironically all that does is make you a bigot. As for Mr. Hardner's question if he wants to contend the attacks were not done by MUSLIMS in the name of Islam because he doesn't like how they interpreted Islam, it doesn't magically mean those attackers were not Muslim and it sure as hell does not make me a bigot to call them out as Muslims and having used Islam to justify what they did. Now you want to talk about fear then focus, Terrorists are the most frightened people in the world. You would understand that if you had to live in their aftermath. They engage in terror because they are cowards fearful of the world. They see the world as hostile and scary and out to get them. They lash out in fear and they are cowards, they attack the unarmed not the armed. You want to talk about fear-then talk about what motivates terrorists-a fear of those they can not understand and so the need to kill anything they can't understand and yes they do that using Islam as their platform to justify it. If someone wants to use Islam to engage in terror I will not couch what they have done in the name of political correctness. If and when you can show that I have called ALL Muslims terrorists, then and only then do you have the right to call me a bigot. Until then get off the pedestal. Edited January 16, 2015 by Rue Quote
Big Guy Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) To Rue - Thank you for your response of less than 560 words - that is my upper limit. What makes you think that I am referring to you? I am not referring to you because I lost interest in your opinions when you expressed your original opinion; Big Guy is an Anti-Semite Big Guy is not very smart Big Guy is an apologist for terrorists Big Guy supports terrorist groups Muslims bad, Jews good Israel right, rest of the world wrong Oh, and now - Big Guy is an apologist for Islam See, I get it. I really do not want to appear rude but I do not read your recent presentations because they are too long for me and mostly because I am no longer interested in your views - I have read them all. Thank you. I know exactly what you think. My post was not directed specifically at you. If you think you fit then that is your interpretation - I really do not care. Whoops - forgot - Big Guy is a bigot! Edited January 16, 2015 by Big Guy Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Shady Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 To Rue - Thank you for your response of less than 560 words - that is my upper limit. What makes you think that I am referring to you? I am not referring to you because I lost interest in your opinions when you expressed your original opinion; Big Guy is an Anti-Semite Big Guy is not very smart Big Guy is an apologist for terrorists Big Guy supports terrorist groups Muslims bad, Jews good Israel right, rest of the world wrong Oh, and now - Big Guy is an apologist for Islam See, I get it. I really do not want to appear rude but I do not read your recent presentations because they are too long for me and mostly because I am no longer interested in your views - I have read them all. Thank you. I know exactly what you think. My post was not directed specifically at you. If you think you fit then that is your interpretation - I really do not care. Whoops - forgot - Big Guy is a bigot! Now you know how it feels to be a conservative. X is a racist. X is a sexist. X is anti-poor. X is an islamaphobe, etc, etc, etc. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 To suggest therefore this is not related to the Islamic religion and how it was interpreted by these 4, is illogical. "Came from" is the wording you used, and that's ambiguous. It seems to me to attribute root cause. "Related to" doesn't mean much, really. Of course the violence is related to the religion. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Argus Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) I'm going to start asking you to qualify which Muslims you're talking about if we're talking about a specific country, like France for example. I'm talking about Muslims on planet earth. French Muslims have more positive attitudes towards Christians than... Americans. They are more likely to see Hamas as being bad for Palestinians, and have almost as positive a view of Jews as Americans as well. (~10%) Evidently that positive attitude towards Jews has faded since 2006 given the repeated attacks on Jews in France by Muslims. We can also quote Muslims from Korengal Valley of Afghanistan, but they have less in common with an urban Muslim in France than you or I do. No, you're mistaken. They have far more in common with Muslims in France, because the thing about a lot of Muslims, especially the more observant ones, is that they see all Muslims as their brothers. They see themselves as Muslims first and foremost, and only well behind that comes any emotional attachment to country. That is why Muslims who know not a soul in Iraq or Afghanistan and have never been there can become murderously outraged at reports of Western soldiers killing Muslims there, and seek revenge. That is why some loserboy Muslims in France and Canada and the US can become attracted to ISIS and Al Qaeda and want to go over there to fight for them, or kill their fellow non-Muslim citizens on their behalf. Edited January 16, 2015 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Michael Hardner Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 I'm talking about Muslims on planet earth. The decision to link every Muslim on the planet across national boundries and races is yours. You had previously indicated that country of origin is a factor in deciding whether someone should be considered for immigration. Evidently that positive attitude towards Jews has faded since 2006 given the repeated attacks on Jews in France by Muslims. That doesn't follow. You're attributing extremists here, in the face of contrary data. No, you're mistaken. They have far more in common with Muslims in France, because the thing about a lot of Muslims, especially the more observant ones, is that they see all Muslims as their brothers. What happened to using statistics ? You are the one who uses statistical polling to back up your attitudes on this religion. And you rejected my idea to not use statistics in that way, but now that I'm using them to show you're wrong you're jumping in with your own manipulations and edits. This is why I say that you come to the debate with your conclusions first, and manipulate the cites and rationale to influence the result. As you said, though, you don't care about the details. I have shown you that French Muslims are less interested in joining church and state than Americans are, and you come in with your grouping of Muslims as a global band of brothers. Do you want to use statistics or not ? Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
GostHacked Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 That makes no sense at all. Jews are not supposed to draw pictures of G-d, though I doubt such a drawing, even if mocking, would incite violence (Chasidim may be another story). A Jew can depict Jacob and his children, Moses, or any of the prophets since they are not G-d. Why would you not show a pic of god? Why would you not even say god .. do you say GOD in public or do you edit it out and say .. i believe in g-d?? Are you afraid of god? Quote
GostHacked Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 Now you know how it feels to be a conservative. X is a racist. X is a sexist. X is anti-poor. X is an islamaphobe, etc, etc, etc. I must be a conservative as well,I got much of the same flack from Rue as Big Guy did. Quote
Rue Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 To Rue - Thank you for your response of less than 560 words - that is my upper limit. What makes you think that I am referring to you? I am not referring to you because I lost interest in your opinions when you expressed your original opinion; Big Guy is an Anti-Semite Big Guy is not very smart Big Guy is an apologist for terrorists Big Guy supports terrorist groups Muslims bad, Jews good Israel right, rest of the world wrong Oh, and now - Big Guy is an apologist for Islam See, I get it. I really do not want to appear rude but I do not read your recent presentations because they are too long for me and mostly because I am no longer interested in your views - I have read them all. Thank you. Thank you. I know exactly what you think. My post was not directed specifically at you. If you think you fit then that is your interpretation - I really do not care. Whoops - forgot - Big Guy is a bigot! Let me summarize your words; "but I do not read" .." Thank you. I know exactly what you think." They illustrate exactly why I challenge you-you admit to being illiterate and close minded. You Big Guy close your mind to anyone you disagree with and assume to know what they think. That speaks for itself and why you write what you do, why I challenge what you write, and why instyead of debating you respond as you did to me with this "poor victim" routine. You are not a victim because I challenge your opinions. Quote
Rue Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 I must be a conservative as well,I got much of the same flack from Rue as Big Guy did. This is not about you and no you are no victim either so stop whining. The fact I challenged Big Guy's views does not make Big Guy a victim or you. This whiny simpering shtick means what? Stop making yourself a victim and the centre of attention and debate the issues. Also your inference was illogical. Criticism unless specifically directed at conservative thought does not make it conservative and no you are not a victim because I said that. If someone wants to come on this board and stereotype anyone who criticizes Islam then play the victim because they are challenged I can only say two words Poor Baby. Quote
GostHacked Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 You are not a victim because I challenge your opinions. Interesting choice of words. But every time your opinions are challenged, you call the challenger an anti-semite. Quote
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