Big Guy Posted January 21, 2015 Report Posted January 21, 2015 Insult and feeling demeaned are very subjective feelings. They vary with each individual. What insults you and makes you angry may be of no consequence to others. If someone got hold of a picture of your loving wife or mother or sister, doctored it to make her look naked and placed it anonymously on the web - that might make you angry. Or it may not. I believe to impart your particular sensibilities on others is a mistake. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Wilber Posted January 21, 2015 Report Posted January 21, 2015 Insult and feeling demeaned are very subjective feelings. They vary with each individual. What insults you and makes you angry may be of no consequence to others. If someone got hold of a picture of your loving wife or mother or sister, doctored it to make her look naked and placed it anonymously on the web - that might make you angry. Or it may not. I believe to impart your particular sensibilities on others is a mistake. There are no doctored pictures of Muhammad because there are no pictures of Muhammad. It doesn't matter what our sensibilities are, they don't justify doing harm to others. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
WIP Posted January 21, 2015 Report Posted January 21, 2015 Sure but two fairly large segments of the worlds population are at odds right now and engaged in the mass murder of each other. Sure we have the right to insult each other, but its likely to escalate that conflict and get a bunch of people killed. I'd personally rather there wasn't so many people trying to fan the flames. One point I was going to add in before when I was active on this thread, was that 54 people have been charged with different sorts of unlawful speech offenses since the Paris attacks. So, the story that France or any other western nation is some bastion of free speech is pure horseshit! The other thing that has bothered me since the wall-to-wall coverage of the Hebdo shootings started, is that, on the same day a bomb goes off in Yemen and kills more than 30 people....doesn't make the news....investigators arriving on the scene of a Boko Haram invasion and massacre in northern Nigeria believe more than 2000 were killed....and it barely makes the news! Sort of puts into perspective who's lives matter/ and who's lives don't matter much in the eyes of western media. On your point about this 'free to insult religion' bullshit, I like to follow the guideline of 'I wouldn't say anything about someone that I wouldn't say to their face.' I think that kept a lot of prurient speech at bay in times past, but since the internet got going, there are too many clowns and trolls out there hiding behind their keyboards, who don't care about anyone or any consequences, as long as they get attention! Quote Anybody who believers exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. -- Kenneth Boulding, 1973
Wilber Posted January 21, 2015 Report Posted January 21, 2015 One point I was going to add in before when I was active on this thread, was that 54 people have been charged with different sorts of unlawful speech offenses since the Paris attacks. So, the story that France or any other western nation is some bastion of free speech is pure horseshit! What kind of "unlawful speech offences" were they? Do you know? Some people here don't seem to know the difference between insulting someone and calling for violence against them. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Argus Posted January 21, 2015 Report Posted January 21, 2015 Sure but two fairly large segments of the worlds population are at odds right now and engaged in the mass murder of each other. Sure we have the right to insult each other, but its likely to escalate that conflict and get a bunch of people killed. I'd personally rather there wasn't so many people trying to fan the flames. By 'at odds' do you mean that largely Christian countries object to their citizens being murdered by Muslims? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 21, 2015 Report Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) Yeah, westerners and middle eastern muslims arent too fond of each other in case you havent noticed, and this has allowed militant minded people on both sides to start a lot of shit. Probably about 1 million dead in the last decade alone. Westerners don't give a damn about middle eastern Muslims as long as they stay away from us and don't cut off oil shipments in a fit of pique. Edited January 21, 2015 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
dre Posted January 21, 2015 Report Posted January 21, 2015 By 'at odds' do you mean that largely Christian countries object to their citizens being murdered by Muslims? Cuts both ways. They object to us killing them as well, and we kill an awful lot more of them than they kill us, you just choose to ignore those deaths. Westerners don't give a damn about middle eastern Muslims as long as they stay away from us and don't cut off oil shipments in a fit of pique. And muslims wouldnt care about us if we werent parading around the middle east breaking stuff, blowing stuff up, and sponsoring corrupt autocracies. We have done AT LEAST as much to provoke this conflict as they have. If the roles were reversed we would make these people look like altar boys. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Wilber Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 Cuts both ways. They object to us killing them as well, and we kill an awful lot more of them than they kill us, you just choose to ignore those deaths. You would rather have it the other way around? Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
dre Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 You would rather have it the other way around? No I would rather have it neither way around. And I would rather my government doesnt take 50k a year from me in taxes and then completely squander it in ways that make me LESS secure and LESS safe. We need to disengage and let them deal with their own problems. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Wilber Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 We need to disengage and let them deal with their own problems. You assume that's an option. It takes two to disengage. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
dre Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) You assume that's an option. It takes two to disengage. Of course its an option. We dont need to be killing hundreds of thousands of people in the middle east in elective wars that cost trillions and achieve no notable results. And until we stop we dont deserve security. Our own intelligence agencies have told us in no uncertain terms that this behavior puts us at risk. Its stupid behavior thats going to come back to haunt us. Edited January 22, 2015 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Wilber Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 Of course its an option. We dont need to be killing hundreds of thousands of people in the middle east in elective wars that cost trillions and achieve no notable results. And until we stop we dont deserve security. Our own intelligence agencies have told us in no uncertain terms that this behavior puts us at risk. Its stupid behavior thats going to come back to haunt us. Maybe if we are real quiet they won't notice us. That doesn't have a great track record. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
dre Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 Maybe if we are real quiet they won't notice us. That doesn't have a great track record. Not killing hundreds of thousands of people is not really the same thing as being "real quiet". And it DOES have a good track record. Theres well over a hundred different countries that dont have interventionalist policy in the middle east and they are MUCH MUCH MUCH less likely to be targeted as the ones that do. You are trying to pretend that the consequences are disconnected from our actions. They arent. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Argus Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 Cuts both ways. They object to us killing them as well, and we kill an awful lot more of them than they kill us, you just choose to ignore those deaths. Anything we do over there is defensive in nature, not born of religious fanaticism and barbarism. And muslims wouldnt care about us if we werent parading around the middle east breaking stuff, blowing stuff up, and sponsoring corrupt autocracies. Yeah, the middle east would be a paradise if it only weren't for us rotten Westerners. So many enlightened leaders and such an intelligent, thoughtful electorate! Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 Not killing hundreds of thousands of people is not really the same thing as being "real quiet". WE don't kill hundreds of thousands of people. THEY kill them. Even if you look at places like Iraq and Afghanistan where, by the way, none of those who have attacked the West have come from, the vast majority of deaths were caused by the local fanatics, not western troops. You are trying to pretend that the consequences are disconnected from our actions. They arent. You are trying to pretend our actions are divored from their actions. They aren't. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Wilber Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 Not killing hundreds of thousands of people is not really the same thing as being "real quiet". And it DOES have a good track record. Theres well over a hundred different countries that dont have interventionalist policy in the middle east and they are MUCH MUCH MUCH less likely to be targeted as the ones that do. You are trying to pretend that the consequences are disconnected from our actions. They arent. You are trying to pretend there are no consequences to their actions, you just don't want any for you. You would have us pretend that things like the Boko Haram, ISIS and the Taliban massacres of school children didn't happen because being critical of them or doing something to stop them might make them angry. These things will still be happening while your head is buried in the sand. You can't wish them away. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
eyeball Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 Anything we do over there is defensive in nature, not born of religious fanaticism and barbarism. Most of what we do over there is offensive, aggressive and now insulting and is born of economic and ideological fanaticism. Our actions are probably even more barbaric given we should know better than to behave the way we do. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
dre Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) You are trying to pretend there are no consequences to their actions, you just don't want any for you. You would have us pretend that things like the Boko Haram, ISIS and the Taliban massacres of school children didn't happen because being critical of them or doing something to stop them might make them angry. These things will still be happening while your head is buried in the sand. You can't wish them away. Those things will happen anyways, and our intervention has a history of making them WORSE and getting MORE people killed. Take ISIL for example... thats a direct result of the power vacuum that was created when we put an Iranian shia proxy government in control of Iraq and disenfranchised the countries sunnis. We just flat out CANT solve all these problems for every damn country on earth. Not only can we not afford it but we REALLY SUCK AT IT, and when we interfere in regions and conflicts we dont understand it causes all kinds of unforseen consequences and jeapardizes our own security. Its not a matter of burying our heads in the sand its matter of acknowledging that we cant fix what makes civil wars happen around the world, and we cant resolve sectarian tension among people we dont understand. All we do is make things worse and squander a gigantic ammount of blood and treasure that could be used in ways that actually benefit us. We have been doing this for almost a century and by any objective measure it simply HAS NOT WORKED. Its time to try something different. Disengage and let them settle their own disputes. Western governments are the KEYSTONE COPS of interventionalist foreign policy. Our idiotic civilian leaders waste trillions and get thousands of our troops killed while accomplishing nothing at all with the exception of big profits for a few private sector companies. Edited January 22, 2015 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
dre Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 Anything we do over there is defensive in nature, not born of religious fanaticism and barbarism. No it isnt. Not even close. Most western involvement in the middle east has been completely centered around economic interests... even if you go back as far as the Barbary wars. All this intervention is entirely elective and has nothing to do with either our own defense, or making the lives of people there better. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Wilber Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) I'm constantly amazed that only the countries that value personal freedoms, free speech and human rights are responsible for all the evil in the world. Organizations like ISIS, Boko Haram and the Taliban love to hate everyone who isn't like them. We love to hate ourselves. And no you can't change anything if you aren't willing to make an effort. Edited January 22, 2015 by Wilber Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
dre Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) I'm constantly amazed that only the countries that value personal freedoms, free speech and human rights are responsible for all the evil in the world. Cool story bro! But nobody said anything like that. I never said groups like the ones you mentioned are not evil, what I said is we cant fix that, and all our attempts to do so make things worse. Organizations like ISIS, Boko Haram and the Taliban love to hate everyone who isn't like them. We love to hate ourselves. Those ARE bad organizations, but our actions actually HELP them. ISIS would not even exist without hapless blundering western military intervention. Organizations like ISIS, Boko Haram and the Taliban love to hate everyone who isn't like them. We love to hate ourselves. Speak for yourself. I dont hate myself OR my country OR the west. Im critical of really poorly thought out and ill advised foreign policy that not hurts their interests but ours as well. It has nothing to do with hate, in fact critisizing terrible government policy is the greatest responsible citizens in a democracy have. And no you can't change anything if you aren't willing to make an effort. Its nice that you want to help, but when all your ideas on how to help are stupid and dont work, and everything you try fails and hurts the people you are trying to help, and puts your OWN citizens at risk, and wastes THEIR money, blood, and resources, at some point you have to realize that the best way to help is to stop helping. I mean think about it... We overthrow a democratically elected leader in Iran, and put a patsy in charge. When the people there decide to depose him, then we back Saddam Husseign in two bloody unprovoked invasions, and look the other way while he massacres his own people and hundreds of thousands of Iranians. Then we decide to turn on Hussein, and we put Iranian backed Shia in charge, and arm rebels against the Allawite regime in Syria resulting in ISIS... now we are fighting ISIS and trying to force 20 million Sunnis to accept rule by Iranian backed Shia. Its so god damn stupid, that the folks that wrote "Dumber and Dumber" couldnt even dream up a more slapstick plot. We got hundreds of thousands of people killed, we bread a whole new generation of anti western terrorists, and we took the cap off whats likely to become a major sectarian war. If you think thats helping then do me a favor. DONT HELP ME with anything ok? Edited January 22, 2015 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Big Guy Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 George Bush had to react to 9/11 in some manner. The West knew that Bin Laden was in Afghanistan. He chose to do something really stupid as an excuse to attack Afghanistan and kill a whole bunch more Americans than were killed in 9/11. His successor found out that Bin Laden was living in Pakistan. Did he attack Pakistan - No! He sent in a team and took him out. That was an illegal act that ignored Pakistan sovereignty that was quickly forgotten. I wonder how the world would be to-day if Bush had not gone into Iraq for that oil fictitious weapons of mass destruction and used the Navy Seals to extract Bib Laden from Afghanistan. I am surprised that so many posters feel that we had no choice but to invade some countries in the Middle East. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
jbg Posted January 23, 2015 Report Posted January 23, 2015 Yeah, westerners and middle eastern muslims arent too fond of each other in case you havent noticed, and this has allowed militant minded people on both sides to start a lot of shit. Probably about 1 million dead in the last decade alone.The West has not engaged in "mass murder" of Muslims. The Muslims are engaged in lots of internal mass murder though. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Rue Posted January 23, 2015 Report Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) Its interesting JBG to see how this thread evolved and the same persons who don't miss a beat initiating "criticism' of Israel came on to this thread and in my opinion tried to initiate clumsy half assed attempts to defocus away from the culpability of the terrorists for their actions with subjective opinions such as HJone's where he suggested in his response that Jews in France are treated better thn Muslims with Charlie Hebdo cartoons with zero proof of that accusation, or even better his other response that Jews could learn from Muslims on how to deal with terrorism. His responses for me clearly showed how he gave one answer that incites resentment against Jews for unfair favourable treatment and another that suggests they are morally or psychologically inferior to Muslims and need lessons from Muslims on how to react to terror. I believe both responses were examples of how HJones will use such threads for his own anti Jewish agenda and I say anti Jewish not anti Israeli because his comments were about Jews and referenced Jewish communities in France-he lectured the target of the terrorist attacks how to behave when attacked and to learn how to behave from Muslims. Then we had the thread going off on a tangent with some responses posing its excusable or understandable that Muslim extremists would react as they did because Charlie Hebdo brought it on themselves. So now when I saw Dre adding in her/his attempt to suggest the West is slaughtering Muslims of course I was not surprised. To me it was yet another clumsy, sloppy, lazy, unsubstantiated, allegation with zero proof being used to advance the argument that the West is as bad as Muslim extremists. Uh right, so we then we do what... assume from that two wrongs make a right for Muslim extremists? What that if one side is terrorist, the other's terrorism is now acceptable?. It wouldn't dawn on Dre that even if her/his false accusation against the West was true, it would not justify what any extremist does. Do you not find it interesting just a day ago a mad man in Tel Aviv stabs 11 people, and within hours Hamas applauds that as a heroic act and not a peep on this board from the "usul suspects", the same ones who will be quick to say Zionism is cancerous, people who defend the right to Israel's existence as a Jewish state throw out the anti semite card simply because of criticism of Israel? Where are they? Where are they saying, an attack on innocent people in Israel was carried out precisely because they choose to be Jews living in a state and that is seen as a legitimate reason to terrorize them, Not a peep...but as you know we will hear such ridiculous responses such as it doesn't matter if others recognize Israel as a Jewish state. It mattered to the terrorist in Tel Aviv, the terrorists in Paris, the terrorists in Australia. JBG there will be no recognition on this board that the terrorism we now witness weekly, daily is extremism that mixes fundamentalist Muslim believes with hatred of Jews and hatred of the state of Israel existing not because it exists but because it exists as a JEWISH entity. The disconnect between the religion of Islam and its use in justifying a religious war against JEWS and because of that a war against any JEW who dares live in a state, is evident. We aren't supposed to acknowledge the Muslim content of the terrorism and how it does not distinguish between Jews and Jews living in Israel. We are not supposed to acknowledge how it is a continuation of a form of extremism that has continued since ancient days. We are supposed to assume it only magically appeared because of colonialists and that Israel is a colonialist even though it was created by people fleeing colonialists. Bottom line, you and I know when the attack comes it will be against ANY Jew. No Muslim extremist is going to ask us are we Zionists. Bottom line it matters to them we are not just Jews who believe in the right of statehood, but believe we should exist as Jews, anywhere, period. We also know that in certain parts of the world not just Jews, but Christians, (Nigeria, Sudan, Iran) will also be singled out and either killed or tortured for the same Muslim extremist reasons. Well there ws HJones on this thread talking of a double standard how Muslims are treated advancing that argument by suggesting JEWS get better treated, but he is the same poster who did not hesitate to repeatedly call Zionism cancerous. See any Jew who believes they have a right to exist as a state is cancerous in their thinking process and he can use the generalized reference "wipe out Zionism" but he doesn't mean actually killing the Zionists, just wiping out their Zionist thought processes, but if we use the word MUSLIM extremist well that is horrible, it stigmatizes and makes generalizations against all Muslims. Its ok to make negative generalizations about all Israelis, all Zionists but not Muslims. But hey not to worry HJones made a negative generalization about Wahabis calling them as bad as Zionists so hey its all ok. Yep the West is one mass murderer. But hey that generalization is o.k. as long as its not against Muslims Dre is o,k.w ith that. Now can you get back to me and explain to me this. If as Hudson Jones said on another thread, Europeans and settler colonial extensions (no I really do not know what that means he never explained) are duped by Zionist acrobatics (no I am not sure what kind of acrobatic techniques he meant, it could be a Zionist high wire act maybe a Zionist trampoline he never explained) into calling any criticism of Israel anti semitic, then why would Muslim extremists who would know that attack them? I mean according to the article HJones presented on that anti semite thread, if the Arabs and Muslims (all of them as HJones advanced in the article he provided) know that the Europeans tare pawns of Zionist acrobats why attack them? Say now, should HJ show that article of hhis to Al Quaeda,ISIL,etc.,and tell them hey boys, its not their fault you are attacking people mind controlled by the Zionists? Yep another day, another terrorist attack with Hamas referring to the stabbing of innocent unarmed victims as innocent and in this latest case, like the Paris one, the murders being carried out because the targets were Jews, in one case because they were Jews living in France, the other because they were Jews whose sin was to be born or living in Israel. . Edited January 23, 2015 by Rue Quote
Argus Posted January 23, 2015 Report Posted January 23, 2015 Most of what we do over there is offensive, aggressive and now insulting and is born of economic and ideological fanaticism. We haven't done anything offensive in more than half a century. If we were going to be offensive we'd take their oil away from them. Our actions are probably even more barbaric given we should know better than to behave the way we do. Paternalistic liberal bigotry. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
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