Hudson Jones Posted January 15, 2015 Report Posted January 15, 2015 I've already posted the polls. Apparently clicking on a link remains beyond your skill set. Or maybe you're afraid the polls were conducted by Jews? That's the thing. There is nothing about 80% of Muslims in the world, supporting Sharia law and all that entails. Unless you can post this information from the link you keep telling me confirms your comment, you have again posted misinformation. Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
Hudson Jones Posted January 15, 2015 Report Posted January 15, 2015 More double standards and hypocrisy: Haaretz German paper publishes, in error, an anti-Semitic cartoonBerliner Zeitung mistakenly thought that image was a front page of the Paris satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo. In a tribute to the French magazine a day after the massacre at its editorial offices, the Berlin daily published several of Charlie Hebdo's past cover pages. One of them, however, was a fake, showing a cartoon drawn by the anti-Semitic illustrator Joe le Corbeau. The cartoon showed an orthodox Jew, with a caption saying “1 million rebate out of six, for Palestine.” The word “rebate” is a wordplay suggesting rabbis and rebate in German. Berliner Zeitung a day later apologized for posting the cartoon. As one of the comments under the article says: Jewish hatred-bad, Arab hatred-good Hypocrisy. The exact same image dressed in jewish clothes is considered hate speech, anti-Semitic and an apology is issued. But put that image in Arab clothes and its free speech. This bigotry is disgusting. Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
Shady Posted January 15, 2015 Report Posted January 15, 2015 How is simply depicting the Mohammed in any way Arab hatred? Also, not all Arabs are Muslims, so how is your example an example of Arab hatred? Quote
Shady Posted January 15, 2015 Report Posted January 15, 2015 To piggy back on Argus' point. Majorities of Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan support death for leaving Islam. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/01/64-percent-of-muslims-in-egypt-and-pakistan-support-the-death-penalty-for-leaving-islam/ Quote
-1=e^ipi Posted January 15, 2015 Report Posted January 15, 2015 It is proactive. It does not just react to colonialists or Zionists. It is about people taking the existing passages of the Koran and continuing to interpret those passages in the same manner as they have been interpreted for over 3,000 years and long before colonialism or Zionism could be used as excuses for this behaviour. The Quran less than 1400 years old... Quote
-1=e^ipi Posted January 15, 2015 Report Posted January 15, 2015 Theres no question that Christians take less offense to depictions of their fake god, than muslims do to depictions of their fake god. Either way, theres no question that Muslims are a lot more uptight about depictions of the prophet/god. Mohammed is not God/Allah in Islam. That's sort of the reason why Muslims don't like the depiction of their prophet in the first place, because they want to avoid idolatry. Quote
WIP Posted January 15, 2015 Report Posted January 15, 2015 The attempt to make it look like that there is a consistency in how all religions and religious people are treated in the media and by Charlie Hebdo is a failure and is not based on reality. #IamNotCharlie Not only that, but our simplistic media presentation as this being just an issue about religion....their religion specifically is at the heart of the problem! What I can find of Charlie Hebdo and its lead editor, tells me that they were deliberately focusing on France's immigrant population and shifting from a supposedly left liberal publication to something that was onside with the right...even the nationalist right that proclaims their secularism as a club to use against immigrants they see as never to be considered truly French in the first place. I came across an interview of former NY Times foreign correspondent Chris Hedges yesterday, who in this short piece fills in a lot of necessary details about present day French culture, what is and what isn't allowed as free speech and France's genocide in Algeria which is not taught in the schools and not allowed for public discussion today! All this under the backdrop of still trying to be a neocolonial power in West Africa: Real News Network, includes transcript The message of the war criminals marching in the lead of the Charlie Hebdo march in Paris is that they want the right to commit atrocities in the Middle East and other far off lands without facing the risk of blowback, like the occasional terrorist attack! Quote Anybody who believers exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. -- Kenneth Boulding, 1973
msj Posted January 15, 2015 Report Posted January 15, 2015 (edited) I think part of the problem here is that some people actually think Muslims are a race. Anyone can be a Muslim. Not anyone can be a black person or gay, for example. If I wanted to give up reason and science and embrace ideas from the 7th century then I, too, could be a Muslim. So, when you do a cartoon that is against Jews (also a religion more so than a race although most agree to some kind of "ethnicity") that is like doing a cartoon about black people or gays. Admittedly, the Jewish question is a hard one (oooohhhhh, am I going to get censored for that really bad pun?) [For the record, I do think the Holocaust happened although I have doubts as to what extent Israel should "exist" - I defer to Sam Harris on this as I pretty much agree with his take] But when a person actually has the ability to convert into or out of Islam? Nope, that is merely someone accepting a "mother load of bad ideas" or rejecting those ideas. Just because those ideas say no cartoons of the Prophet doesn't mean people who do not subscribe to those ideas need to feel offended. Edited January 15, 2015 by msj Quote If a believer demands that I, as a non-believer, observe his taboos in the public domain, he is not asking for my respect but for my submission. And that is incompatible with a secular democracy. Flemming Rose (Dutch journalist) My biggest takeaway from economics is that the past wasn't as good as you remember, the present isn't as bad as you think, and the future will be better than you anticipate. Morgan Housel http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/01/14/things-im-pretty-sure-about.aspx
Shady Posted January 15, 2015 Report Posted January 15, 2015 Anyone else heard about the anti-terror raids going on in Europe today breaking up imminent attacks? Apparently there's been a shootout in Belgium between police and several terror suspects with assault rifles. Quote
Guest Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 Should one be going to jail for being a holocaust denier? Most definitely not. It should warrant no government sanction at all. I never could understand the problem people have with Holocaust deniers. It has to be one of the easiest arguments to refute. It's like arguing with Flat Earthers. The evidence is so strong. They should be ridiculed, not jailed. Quote
Guest Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 Theres no question that Christians take less offense to depictions of their fake god, than muslims do to depictions of their fake god. I think the biggest difference is probably education and religiosity. Christians in the west are barely even religious. Most of them dont, pray, or even go to church regularly. And while Muslims believe that their little book is the absolute infallible truth, most Christians consider the bible to be mostly allegorical. Either way, theres no question that Muslims are a lot more uptight about depictions of the prophet/god. Listening to the BBC world service today, or maybe it was NPR, and there was a Muslim scholar on who said the Koran, which Muslims believe to be absolute word of God, recommends no earthly punishment for mocking the religion. Rather, it insists that the devoout Muslim walk away from such frivolity and ignore it. If I remember correctly, the same was said for blasphemy and apostasy. The violent retribution for all those sins came from the Hadiths, which form the basis of Sharia Law, and were written up to two hundred years after the religion was formed. So if only radical Muslims would actually follow a literal interpretation of the Koran, everone would get along just fine. Quote
Argus Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 So if only radical Muslims would actually follow a literal interpretation of the Koran, everone would get along just fine. Except most Muslims don't agree with the guy doing the interview, as evidence from the survey of their beliefs regarding the punishment required for blasphemers, apostates, etc. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Guest Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 Except most Muslims don't agree with the guy doing the interview, as evidence from the survey of their beliefs regarding the punishment required for blasphemers, apostates, etc. Well, yes, that's why I said: "If only". Quote
Shady Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 I love how military style assaults, and Islamic state armies are referred to as being "uptight". Quote
Shady Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 Well, yes, that's why I said: "If only". Not really. Literal interpretation is the problem, not the solution. Quote
jbg Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 Mohammed is not God/Allah in Islam. That's sort of the reason why Muslims don't like the depiction of their prophet in the first place, because they want to avoid idolatry. That makes no sense at all. Jews are not supposed to draw pictures of G-d, though I doubt such a drawing, even if mocking, would incite violence (Chasidim may be another story). A Jew can depict Jacob and his children, Moses, or any of the prophets since they are not G-d. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
-1=e^ipi Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 That makes no sense at all. Jews are not supposed to draw pictures of G-d, though I doubt such a drawing, even if mocking, would incite violence (Chasidim may be another story). A Jew can depict Jacob and his children, Moses, or any of the prophets since they are not G-d. Judaism != Islam... Quote
Michael Hardner Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 Except most Muslims ... I'm going to start asking you to qualify which Muslims you're talking about if we're talking about a specific country, like France for example. French Muslims have more positive attitudes towards Christians than... Americans. They are more likely to see Hamas as being bad for Palestinians, and have almost as positive a view of Jews as Americans as well. (~10%) We can also quote Muslims from Korengal Valley of Afghanistan, but they have less in common with an urban Muslim in France than you or I do. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 ....French Muslims have more positive attitudes towards Christians than... Americans. They are more likely to see Hamas as being bad for Palestinians, and have almost as positive a view of Jews as Americans as well. (~10%) Cite please....all Americans ? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Michael Hardner Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 I think we are using Pew on here as a trusted source for information. img=http://www.pewresearch.org/files/old-assets/obdeck/50-5.gif Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 I think we are using Pew on here as a trusted source for information. img=http://www.pewresearch.org/files/old-assets/obdeck/50-5.gif The Pew research is from 2006...not today. "Publics" vs. "Muslims" in the U.S. dataset ? Are there no U.S. Muslims ? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Michael Hardner Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 The Pew research is from 2006...not today. "Publics" vs. "Muslims" in the U.S. dataset ? Are there no U.S. Muslims ? No, it's vs all Americans as you said Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 No, it's vs all Americans as you said Right....so it's still kinda apples to oranges, no ? American Muslims were not polled in the same way as far as I can tell. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Michael Hardner Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 Yes, they also didn't ask about canadian or Japanese Muslims, but given the thread topic and the oft quoted 80% support level for Sharia Law, we need better precision in examining the attitudes in the region. Indeed French Muslims are far less supportive of the idea of religious law governing their lands than Americans are, in general. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) Yes, they also didn't ask about canadian or Japanese Muslims, but given the thread topic and the oft quoted 80% support level for Sharia Law, we need better precision in examining the attitudes in the region. Indeed French Muslims are far less supportive of the idea of religious law governing their lands than Americans are, in general. OK...it's an interesting (but dated) poll and analyses, but I wouldn't draw any conclusions from it given that "publics" vs. "Muslims". The difference between "Americans" and "French Muslims" is easily lost in the polling error margin, if not the group differences. There are at least twice an many Muslims in the U.S. than in France, but they are a smaller percentage of the general population. Here is a competing idea, complete with the number of cars burned each year in France: http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4120/islamization-france Edited January 16, 2015 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
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