kidnapped Israeli teens bodies found

[dre]

Which is why this conflict will continue indefinitely.

No question about it. Your great great great gand children will still be watching those retards kill each other over that chunk of fetid dirt.

[Michael Hardner]

Merging this thread into:

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/23788-israelis-celebrating-the-death-of-innocent-arabs/

[jbg]

Merging this thread into:

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/23788-israelis-celebrating-the-death-of-innocent-arabs/

Where's the merger? Neither link is working.

[Michael Hardner]

Sorry- I didn't realize the old link wouldn't go to the new thread.

There were 4 threads on Israel - the one called something like "Israelis celebrate death of innocent Arabs" was merged into this one.

[jbg]

Sorry- I didn't realize the old link wouldn't go to the new thread.

There were 4 threads on Israel - the one called something like "Israelis celebrate death of innocent Arabs" was merged into this one.

Don't we need another few threads? And what I guess can be done is manually add the URL to each of the now-defunct/merged threads.

[Michael Hardner]

Don't we need another few threads? And what I guess can be done is manually add the URL to each of the now-defunct/merged threads.

1) If it's the same general topic, then we can clean things up from time to time. Usually the key is when somebody says something like "another thread on this ?"

2) There's no way for me to do that technically

[bush_cheney2004]

I think we need another thread to discuss the technical success (or failure) of "Iron Dome". Maybe I'll start one in the Health, Science, and Technology area ! The same old politics can be so boring.....

[Boges]

Mapleleafweb.com: Rob Ford and Israel threads.

[Boges]

I think we need another thread to discuss the technical success (or failure) of "Iron Dome". Maybe I'll start one in the Health, Science, and Technology area ! The same old politics can be so boring.....

Don't badmouth the Iron Dome. It's cool. Shoot down them terrorist rockets!!!!

Edited July 16, 2014 by Boges

[bush_cheney2004]

Don't badmouth the Iron Dome. It's cool. Shoot down them terrorist rockets!!!!

Only from a conceptual vantage (detect, track/process, launch, kill)....like Patriot Missile batteries. Iron Dome is mostly an Israeli home grown weapons system with lots of American funding and collaboration. Hell, the Americans were very skeptical at first, but the Israelis were...ummm...significantly more motivated.

[Boges]

Only from a conceptual vantage (detect, track/process, launch, kill)....like Patriot Missile batteries. Iron Dome is mostly an Israeli home grown weapons system with lots of American funding and collaboration. Hell, the Americans were very skeptical at first, but the Israelis were...ummm...significantly more motivated.

Israel has far less territory to protect.

[jbg]

1) If it's the same general topic, then we can clean things up from time to time. Usually the key is when somebody says something like "another thread on this ?"

2) There's no way for me to do that technically

That's why I said "manually" as in add this link, http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/23748-kidnapped-israeli-teens-bodies-found/ , to the bottom of the other three threads.

[scribblet]

Hamas was the aggressor in this crime. The hundreds of rockets and mortar bombs fired indiscriminately into Israel did not provoke a response from the IDF for at least a day. The Israeli gov't is fully within its rights to defend its people including elimination of the source of the shelling. The onus for preventing civilian casualties is on the aggressor.

[jacee]

Hamas was the aggressor in this crime. The hundreds of rockets and mortar bombs fired indiscriminately into Israel did not provoke a response from the IDF for at least a day. The Israeli gov't is fully within its rights to defend its people including elimination of the source of the shelling. The onus for preventing civilian casualties is on the aggressor.

I don't think you understand the conditions in Gaza.

Gaza will continue to fight for freedom from Israeli oppression - border control, aggressive expansion of Israeli settlements, etc - until Gaza is free of Israeli oppression.

Hamas supports state status for Palestine - accepts a two state solution. Israel opposed it, because it would curtail their aggressive expansion.

Israel doesn't seek peace with its neighbours. Israel seeks and practices control, not peace.

.

Edited July 16, 2014 by jacee

[Rue]

I don't think you understand the conditions in Gaza.

Gaza will continue to fight for freedom from Israeli oppression - border control, aggressive expansion of Israeli settlements, etc - until Gaza is free of Israeli oppression.

Hamas supports state status for Palestine - accepts a two state solution. Israel opposed it, because it would curtail their aggressive expansion.

Israel doesn't seek peace with its neighbours. Israel seeks and practices control, not peace.

.

You clearly do not understand the conditions in Gaza.

To start with Gaza is a geographic designation it can not fight. Its a piece of sand.

Secondly what makes you think you know what the people of Gaza think?

Have you spoken to them? Of course not. All you have done is project your subjective opinions on them.

Gaza citizens for your information worked in Israel and lived peacefully next door to Israel. They came back and forth across the border. They worked with Israelis. I know because unlike you I was in Gaza and I worked with them. I saw the roads built, the schools built, the mosques, greenhouses, community centres, hospitals Israeli money built through donations to charities affiliated with Hamas when Hamas was run by a non violent cell that was opposed to terrorism.

It was Hamas not Gaza citizens who blew that all up and ordered tGaza citizens not to communicate with Israelis. It was Hamas that put rubber tires around the necks of Gaza citizens they accused of collaborating with Israelis. They went house to house torturing and killing anyone who worked in Israel or with people like me. Man oh man what is it that people come on this forum claiming to know what either Israelis or Gaza citizens think?

You are yet another armchair expert claiming to speak for Gaza citizens. You do not.

Hamas holds them hostage. They use their homes as missile sites, ammunition sites. They use their schools, hospitals, community centres deliberately as attack sites so that innocent civilians will be killed.

You are also absolutely and utterly wrong about Hamas wanting a two state solution. That is absolutely false. Hamas calls for the end of Israel as a Jewish state and the end of Jordan as a Palestinian state. It calls for the taking back of Israel, Jordan and the West Bank and turning them it into a Muslim caliphate. You could not be more wrong if you tried. Hamas has never at any time in its history ever indicated it would agree to any state in Israel other than a Muslim one merged with Jordan and the West Bank. Can you at least make an effort to find out what they stand for before you so blatantly misrepresent their actual position or charter that calls for the deaths of Jews anywhere in the world until Israel is removed from the planet.

Your comment that Israel opposes Hamas' request for a two state solution because it would curtail expansion is absolutely false.

Not that you seem to notice, but Israel pulled out of Gaza. Its not occupying it. When it pulled out the very day it pulled out Hamas began attacking it and has never stopped attacking it with missiles.

Your comments are so blinded by your bias they are past absurd.

Yes Israel does want to control terrorism and prevent it, precisely because they want peace.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Rue

[scribblet]

Well said Rue !!

[Rue]

I personally find the concept of religious states in general to be repugnant regardless of which religion it is.

Good luck disbanding all the Muslim states. While you are at it good luck removing the connection between the Church of England and the Queen. While you are at it good luck removing the Catholics from the Vatican, the Buddists from Nepal, and hey good luck with all the Catholic states in South America.

While you are at it, good luck removing the relationship between the native peoples of Canada and the components of their value systems that express belief in the creator.

The reality is they exist world wide. The reality is only when Jews have a state do people seem to have a problem.

The reality is you make simplistic statements that over simplify complex historical developments that have led to the symbols governments of people use.

The reality is you are quick to dismiss the people of the Middle East as retards for being in conflict failing to see how idiotic such a statement is to your own people's continuing conflict.

People conflict. They always have, they always will. Religion is just one pretext for those conflicts. Religion per se, is not the cause, its just a symptom of the conflict. Its one type of manifestation or expression of the conflicts humans have.

Relgion is on the surface. Its just a form of primal identification-its what primates do when they are homo sapiens and they want to identify their different packs and alpha males who lead those packs.

Human behaviour is based on primal behaviour patterns. When we fail to repress certain primal urges and instincts those primal behaviours can lead to conflict. It doesn't make humans retarded when they conflict, it makes them primal.

We are primates. To call primates retards because they engage in pack and territorial behaviour makes no sense.

Levels of civilization have come and go. The values we have used to evaluate their level of civility are relative to the values of the day.

You call conflicted people retards because it makes you feel superior to the people you see conflicted.

Go look in the mirror. You so sure your life has no conflicts?

[Rue]

This is a good opportunity to examine the origins of the origins of terrorism in regards to the creation of Israel. There are of course numerous studies that can trace back the origins of terrorism in Muslim society far earlier than that but I will limit it to the 1920's onwords to help explain the current crisis.

As good a year as any to start would be 1928 when the Ikhwan al-Muslimun, or Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt was created.

It was in fact created to challenge the Arab secular governments of that time who this group felt had taken away power from the elite andvery rich Muslims of that time.

The Muslim Brotherhood was led by Hassan al-Banna, who was totally opposed to any secular (non religious) government. In the world he envisioned there would be no seperation between Islam and the state and Muslim law through its mullahs would serve as governmen, judge, jury.

The Egyptian government assasinated al-Banna, and in his death he became a martyr and that Muslim Brotherhood grew into various cells in Egypt, Syria, Iraq and so on.

Now also keep in mind that in 1920 the Arabs had entered into an agreement with Jewish Palestinians betwen Chaim Wietzman representing the Jews and Prince Faisal representing the Arabs, to create two states side by side.

That idea caused panic to the British and French because had it suceeded there would have been no room for France and Britain meddling to get control of the area. So they lied to Faisal and the French told Faisal Wietzman was planning to break the agreement. So Faisal ripped up the agreement only to then be arrested byt he French and expelled from Syria at which time the French set up colonies in Syria and Lebanon, and Britain created two puppet kingdoms Jordan and Iraq and placed both of Faisal's sons on those thrones to appease him and then created Saudi Arabia for the rest of the Faisal klan.

Its all there. Churchill could not be any clearer in his memoirs. The French and British deliberately meddled to prevent a Jewish and Arab states living side by side.

As Churchill admitted in his memoirs, the British asked him to lie and lie he did. He promised to create an Israeli state in what is today Jordan, Israel and Palestine in return for gaining a mandate from the League of Nations to administer the Middle East. Instead he unilaterally and illegally created TransJordan. At first he claimed it was only temporary but then it was turned into a permanent non Jewish Palestinian state and tot his day its constitution forbids Jews from living there and in fact Jordan was created illegally seizing 90% of land promised to the Jews.

As Churchill said, the intention of the British was to never allow a Jewish state because they wanetd to placate their Arab allies for helping them defeat the Ottoman Empire and they felt they could control the Arabs in puppet states but not the Jews.

Churchill's memoirs are clear. The British in the 1920's and 30's implemented an immigration policy that flooded Palestine with Muslims from outside Palestinian who actually displaced the Muslim Palestinians in an effort to prevent Jews in the remaining areas of Palestine from forming a majority.

Anti-semtiism grew in intensity in Europe and in the 20's to 30's as Jews came to Palestine to join the Jews already there to escape the anti-semitism most of their aquisition of land was quite peaceful. They bought swamp land and reclaimed it for farming, something the Arab nomads at the time did not do. The violence between Arabs and Jews started in the early 20's instigated by he British, French and German egging on certain Arab families to attack other arab families perceived too friendly to the Jews.

The Mullah of Jerusalem then openly called for the genocide of Jews and as WW2 broke out he joined Hitler in Berlin living in a house stolen from a Jew where he broadcast regularly back to the Middle East extorting Arabs to kill as many Jews as possible.

The terrorism began to escalate throughout the 30's against Jewish civilians.

Jews who fled from concentration camps, the Nazis, and who got to the Middle East for the most part did not engage in terrorism but up to 1,000 joiend the Irgun and did.

When WW2 broke out of 470,000 Jews, in Palestine, 30,000 joined the British Armed Forces joined by Palestinian Arabs from a certain family.

The majority of Arabs in Egypt, Syria and Iraq identfiied with Hitler as they hated the British and French. The Baath party of these three governments was based on Nazi German's, their uniforms, their laws, the Hitler mustache, the goose-stepping, the Gestapo political police renamed Mukbarrat all brought in.

After WW2, Nazis flooded to Alexandria, Damascus and Baghdad where they ran the governments and armies.

The origins of today's terrorists came from the Fedayeen and Al Fatah, offshoots of terror cells inspired by the vision of Hitler to wipe out the Jews.

To this day Hamas and Hezbollah use the Hitler salute and goose-step. The Hitler mustache was worn by Nasser, Sadat and many other Arab leaders and people on the street.

Jewish terrorism was a minute portion of the Zionists. They did engage in terrorist acts though and for that the Haganah-Palmach openly challenegd them and turned them into the British. In fact Irgun joined the British during WW2 and ceased and desisted its terrorist attacks against civilians. The Stern Gang broke off and at one point made noise it would continue to fight the British during WW2 but once reports came in about the holocaust any of its members who identfiied with Mussolini and the Christian Felangiste right wingers in Lebanon soon withered away.

Make no mistake the actual use of the word Palestinian by Arabs to describe themselves as a people only arose in 1967 after Arafat failed to kill King Hussein of Jordan and take over that state.

It was only then he began describing his people as Palestinians. Up until then, he and every other terrorist fighting Israel (and Jordan which they also felt was an illegal state) ridiculed the notion of an Arab being a Palestinian.

The terrorists that would come in and attack Israel from the West Bank and Gaza were called Fatah or Fedayeen. Some were Palestinian, some Syrian, some Egyptian, etc.

When the 1967 war with the Arab League failed to get rid of Israel yet again, Israel moved into the West Bank to prevent terrorist attacks from the West Bank. In those days without satellite technology it used settlements as early warning posts to warn of incoming terrorists.

As time passed, those settlements were joiend by extremist Jews from New York, and apolitical Israelis who were desperate for a home and a tax break.

Israel's population grew because after the war of independence, it had to absorb over 700,000 Jews thrown out of Arab League nations in retaliation for them losing their war with Israel, then another 30-50 thousand Ethiopians, Russians, Indian, European and American Jews.

Ironically more Jews were displaced by the Arab League after the war than Palestinians during it.

Ironically to this day, most of the Palestininians displaced were displaced by fellow Muslims who flooded the area when Britain created an incentive program to flood the region to prevent a Jewish state.

Ironically after WW2 and even during it, Britain sent back Jews to their death in Germany when they tried to flee rather than let them enter Palestine. Then again McKenzie King sent back a ship load of Jews to their death as well and openlydescribed Jews as vermin. The British did not like Jews and in his memoirs Churchill admitted as much saying Europe never wanted them or understood them.

When Jews found themselves abandon after WW2 only Elenor Roosvelt stood up for them in the UN as a good will ambassador and if it was not for her Truman wasa refusing to recognize Israel.

To understand terrorism is to understand it started with a mix of Nazi German, French and British influence.

In the 1950s, a new and extremely radical leader, Sayyid Qutb, convinced his followers that the Quran justified the killing of fellow Muslims. In his book, “Milestones,” he encouraged a jihad to remove secular Muslim leaders and claimed it was the duty of all Muslims to return Islam to its former power and glory. Following strict Islamic law could only do this. Secular Muslims were put in a category with Christians and Jews—they were infidels.

Sayyid Qutb was also executed by the Egyptians in 1966, but the Islamic terrorist movement grew and expanded and now has branches of loyal followers in over 70 countries around the globe and these Islamic terrorists are more than willing to kill for their cause.

The embarrassing defeat of Islamic/Arab countries by the lowly “monkey-Jew” in the 1967 Six Day War gave fuel to the Islamic terrorist movement. This humiliating loss to the tiny Jewish state was proof for Islamic terrorists that secular Islamic states were against all that was Islamic. Islamic countries were defeated by a people that True Islam does not even consider human.

Mu'ammar Qaddaffi seized power in Libya in 1969 and he used Libya’s vast oil wealth to fund Islamic terror around the world. A decade later, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini overthrew the secular government in Iran by taking the American embassy personnel hostage and keeping them as prisoners for over a year.

The 1980s saw the Iranian-backed terror group, Hezbollah strike American troops on a peacekeeping mission in Lebanon and the American embassy was bombed. The United States made the tragic mistake of leaving Lebanon, and the Islamists saw this as a sign of weakness, and a rash of attacks on Americans continued unpunished around the world for the next two decades.

True Islam had its golden moment on 9/11 when it succeeded in attacking the “great Satan” on its own soil. Their bragging and celebration was brief. The American response to that attack took the terrorists by surprise. Believing America was a weak paper-tiger, I believe the invasion of Afghanistan surprised bin Laden. The loss of Afghanistan enraged the Islamists. Afghanistan was True Islam’s model for the world. Even more insulting was that the majority of Afghani people seemed to welcome the overthrow of the Taliban.

True Islam couldn’t care less about the overthrow of Saddam Hussein. The fact Saddam is Muslim means nothing to them. He was a secular infidel. Iraqi Muslims who wish to remain under a secular government are slaughtered like sheep because they too are considered un-Islamic infidels. Radical Islam knows this may well be its only chance to subjugate the Iraqi people under strict Islamic rule and take possession of an oil-rich terrorist training base. If True Islam were to gain control in Iraq, it would immediately join forces with Iran to wreck havoc on the world.

Once a great power, Islam has now been reduced to training the gullible to strap bombs on themselves and blow up a bus or train full of civilians. Radical Islamic leaders have only one goal: To make Islam the only religion, and to put Islamic leaders in command over the entire population of the world. To accomplish this, western civilization, Christianity, Judaism, secular Muslims, and all other non-Muslim forms of religious beliefs, must be exterminated.

There has been one important adjustment in True Islam’s plan. It no longer shuns modern weapons and technology. Indeed, Islamics believe that the detonation of nuclear weapons on American soil will bring them a quick victory. This is a serious miscalculation on True Islam’s part. A very deadly miscalculation.

If one studies the history of Islam and its violent roots, it is not difficult to understand it. Islamists have killed millions of people over the centuries and killing millions more to accomplish the goal of total Islamic rule does not disturb them.

The number of moderate-secular Muslims is declining as true Islam spreads its rage and hatred to every corner of the world. Time is short. Iran may be only months away from obtaining nuclear weapons. There are reports that several nuclear weapons are already here and in place in America. There can be no signs of weakness from the western world. There can be no negotiations or deals made with True Islam. There can be no quarter given.

History has taught us one thing: It is us, or them. There is no middle ground with terrorists. True Islam has not changed in 1400 years. It is not going to change now.

May I apologize to this board. The bold words you see above are not mine. They come from an article. I thought I had erased them. They are not mine. . I am sorry but I thought I had erased them and I now notice them on the board and two posters have responded to those words and the opinions they express so please forgive me but they are not mine.

For the life of me I can not remember where I got the words from and they should be referenced and have quotation marks.

At one point I was going to quote them to explain they express a position becoming more popular with many who believe radical Islam is the pith and substance of the issue behind the terrorism,

I do believe they represent a view of a growing number of people that once had views like me but have resigned themselves to the belief now that there will not be peace in the Middle East as long as Islam continues to be interpreted as it is now and not reform itself.

In fact may I please say I believe there are still moderate Muslims to reach out to and achieve peace with. I do believe their are peaceful Muslims out there who do not interpret their religion in a way to justify terrorism or hatr Israelis or Jews.

I sill think it important to still try appeal to Muslims on an individual level and plead they denounce terrorism and sit down with Israelis to talk peace.

I was taught and will never stop believing that Muslims like any people have good and bad but I will not stereotype them all as bad just as I wish people would stop doing the same with Jews, Zionists, Israelis, etc.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Rue

[Argus]

I don't think you understand the conditions in Gaza.

Gaza will continue to fight for freedom from Israeli oppression - border control, aggressive expansion of Israeli settlements, etc - until Gaza is free of Israeli oppression.

What about Hamas oppression? From what I understand, torture is endemic in Palestinian prisons, and extra-judicial punishment, including executions, are fairly common. Just what kind of 'freedom' do you suspect an independent Palestine run by Hamas would posses?

Edited July 16, 2014 by Argus

[Derek 2.0]

Only from a conceptual vantage (detect, track/process, launch, kill)....like Patriot Missile batteries. Iron Dome is mostly an Israeli home grown weapons system with lots of American funding and collaboration.

I wonder how long the conflict and tension in the Middle East would last, devoid of outsider funding? Perhaps letting them go at each other, with what they got already, is the only logical way to see a final resolution…….Either someone will win, or they’ll eventually call it a day.

[jacee]

You clearly do not understand the conditions in Gaza.

Secondly what makes you think you know what the people of Gaza think?

Have you spoken to them?

Yes I have.

Gaza citizens for your information worked in Israel and lived peacefully next door to Israel. They came back and forth across the border. They worked with Israelis. I know because unlike you I was in Gaza and I worked with them. I saw the roads built, the schools built, the mosques, greenhouses, community centres, hospitals Israeli money built through donations to charities affiliated with Hamas when Hamas was run by a non violent cell that was opposed to terrorism.

...

You are yet another armchair expert claiming to speak for Gaza citizens. You do not.

No I don't. Neither do you.

You are also absolutely and utterly wrong about Hamas wanting a two state solution. That is absolutely false.

Hamas supported the UN bid for state status for Palestine. It's a step, not a solution, but a step.

Your comment that Israel opposes Hamas' request for a two state solution because it would curtail expansion is absolutely false.

It wasn't "Hamas' request. It was Palestine.

It wasn't a request for "a two state solution". It was a request for state status by Palestine, supported by Hamas.

U.N. Assembly ... Elevates Status of Palestine ... triumph for Palestinian diplomacy and a sharp rebuke to the United States and Israel.

Not that you seem to notice, but Israel pulled out of Gaza. Its not occupying it. When it pulled out the very day it pulled out Hamas began attacking it and has never stopped attacking it with missiles.

Punitive border blockades stifle freedom and life in Gaza.

Yes Israeli does want to control terrorism and prevent it, precisely because they want peace.

Really?

Pounding innocent civilians with bombs, waaaaaaay out of proportion to any 'attack', does not show any investment in peace.

It shows an intention to maintain war.

And btw ... Palestine - with state status - hopes to take Israel to the International Court for war crimes. Maybe Israel needs to start behaving like a mature state instead of a reactionary bully.

Maybe Israel needs to define itself as a real state ... WITH BORDERS ... and stop reacting to how Hamas wants to define it.

.

Edited July 16, 2014 by jacee

[bush_cheney2004]

And btw ... Palestine - with state status - hopes to take Israel to the International Court for war crimes. Maybe Israel needs to start behaving like a mature state instead of a reactionary bully.

Palestine and it's leadership would also be subject to identical "war crimes" for the rocket attacks and other civilian killings.

[marcus]

Israel has killed more children. This time on a beach. While Israel kills more innocent civilians, it continues to dig its own hole. Thanks to technology, information is readily available for the international community. These arrogant, wicked Zionists are no better than groups like ISIS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2Xl5EoUfcE

More on this:

Washington Post

[marcus]

Israel and Israel-Firsters’ PR methods:

1. We haven't heard reports of deaths, will check into it
2. The people were killed, but by a faulty Palestinian rocket/bomb
3. OK, we killed them, but they were terrorists
4. OK, they were civilians, but they were being used as human shields
5. OK, there were no fighters in the area, so it was our mistake. But we kill civilians by accident, they do it on purpose
6. OK, we kill far more civilians than they do, but look at how terrible other countries are!
7. Why are you still talking about Israel ? Are you some kind of anti-semite?

[marcus]

Israel will never win with these tactics. Not in the 21st century with instant media coverage.

"LOOK WHAT YOU MADE US DO!" -- Israel