kidnapped Israeli teens bodies found

[Boges]

From my pov it's because theocracies suck. (And I know Israel is not technically a theocracy, but let's roll with it).

But it's the Jewishness of Israel that they seem to object to. Anywhere else in the developed world such behaviour would be denounced as Xenophobia.

[eyeball]

But it's the Jewishness of Israel that they seem to object to. Anywhere else in the developed world such behaviour would be denounced as Xenophobia.

I think it mostly seems that way to people who seem to denounce every critic of Israel as antisemitic.

Typical of a you're-either-with-or-against-us-mentality that rears it's ugly stupid head all too often these days.

[jacee]

It's been said in this thread that a 2-state solution could be had if Israel wasn't named a Jewish state. That would indicate some hatred for the Jews.

Who cares?

Why does the state of Israel care how other people define it ... especially Hamas, which is not even a state?

A mature state defines itself!

Does Canada demand that the US recognize us as a "bilingual state"? Of course not! They have to recognize us as a state, but what kind of state is not their business and we don't give a damn what they think: We define ourselves, for ourselves.

Demanding that Hamas 'say Jewish' is just throwing an obstacle in the way of peace, indicating a total lack of desire for peace.

It's the equivalent of one kid demanding that another kid 'say uncle' ... immature, conduct-disordered behaviour.

Time for Israel to grow up and take the high road.

There are enough sticky issues without creating an unnecessary roadblock.

.

Edited July 17, 2014 by jacee

[Boges]

Who cares?

Why does the state of Israel care how other people define it ... especially Hamas?

A mature state defines itself!

That's just throwing an obstacle in the way of peace, indicating a total lack of desire for peace.

It's the equivalent of one kid demanding that another kid 'say uncle' ... immature, conduct-disordered behaviour.

Time for Israel to grow up and take the high road.

There are enough sticky issues without creating an unnecessary roadblock.

.

So you admit Hamas is being Xenophobic, you just don't care and think Israel should just suck it up.

I would be leery of a known terrorist organization refusing to negotiate if the term Jewish state is on the table. Just sayin'.

[dre]

So you admit Hamas is being Xenophobic, you just don't care and think Israel should just suck it up.

I would be leery of a known terrorist organization refusing to negotiate if the term Jewish state is on the table. Just sayin'.

Theres no good reason for the religion of the state to BE on the table in the first place. Just sayin'

[Boges]

Theres no good reason for the religion of the state to BE on the table in the first place. Just sayin'

Tell that to Iran, Syria, Lebanon etc etc etc.

[bush_cheney2004]

Does Canada demand that the US recognize us as a "bilingual state"? Of course not! They have to recognize us as a state, but what kind of state is not their business and we don't give a damn what they think: We define ourselves, for ourselves.

Sure you do.....Canadians never mention the U.S. when defining themselves [/sarcasm]

Edited July 17, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[dre]

Tell that to Iran, Syria, Lebanon etc etc etc.

They dont have a right to demand anyone acknowledge their state religions either. They just have the right to their own sovereignty.

[jacee]

So you admit Hamas is being Xenophobic, you just don't care and think Israel should just suck it up.

You know, probably 25%+ US citizens will always think that Canada should just become US states. They tried to invade and take us over us 3 times, and 'manifest destiny' still lives in many.

SO WHAT!?!! We don't care about such fanatics! I run into that attitude every time I go to the US. So what?! Their problem, not mine!

If we were waiting, demanding that all those 'manifest destiny' fanatics 'say uncle' ... we still wouldn't have negotiated borders and peace treaties with the US.

That would be pretty stupid.

I would be leery of a known terrorist organization refusing to negotiate if the term Jewish state is on the table. Just sayin'.

So be leery ... maybe they are Jew-haters ... maybe you'll never change that ...

but they don't define Israel:

Israel defines Israel!

.

Edited July 17, 2014 by jacee

[jacee]

Tell that to Iran, Syria, Lebanon etc etc etc.

They define themselves.

They don't demand that Likud define them.

Israel can be whatever it wants.

Israel doesn't need anybody's approval to be a Jewish state except it's own citizens.

.

[Boges]

Be clear I'm taking about Hamas rejecting peace if Israel is a Jewish state. Jacee you're right Israel should define itself. Not Hamas.

BTW Israel has sent ground forces in today.

Good times. :-/

[jacee]

Be clear I'm taking about Hamas rejecting peace if Israel is a Jewish state.

Israel and Palestine will have to recognize each other as states.

If Israel puts "Jewish" on that paper, then Israel doesn't want peace.

Jacee you're right Israel should define itself. Not Hamas.

Agreed.

BTW Israel has sent ground forces in today.

Good times. :-/

Israel wants to drive Arabs out of Gaza, wants it for itself.

Israel doesn't want peace.

Edited July 17, 2014 by jacee

[Rue]

Theres nobody on EITHER side with any interest in negotiating the above with the exception of maybe Abbas. Preventing the establishment of ANY Arab state west of the river jordan is a core Constitutional plank for Likud. They are not honest negotiators in this any more than Hamas.

Israel would not agree to your 7 stipulations even if there was no terrorism originating from the occupied territories.

Rabin did, Barak did, Peres did, Shimon Peres did, even Menachem Begin did. So you are dead wrong on no one in Israel agreeing to that. Dead wrong.

As for Mr. Abbas, he has made it clear he will never accept a Jewish state.

Now let's move on from your misrepresentations to Jacee's continuous comments that Israel should not expect to be recognized as Jewish.

I would expect that. This is someone who has no problems with there being Muslim states, Catholic states, an Anglican state. Its only if its a Jewish one she discriminates and uses her discriminatory standard. Fully expected.

She also ignores why Abbas will not recognize Israel as a Jewish state. He has stated if he did that he would be forced to give up the notion that ANY ARAB WHO IDENTIFIES AS PALESTINIAN could not return to Israel and be granted automatic citizenship.

The very reason he and no other Arab leader will come out and acknowledge Israel exists as a Jewish state is because it flies in the face of their Muslim religious ideological concept that Jews can have a state. In Islam Jews can not own land or have a state. That is where it originates. Its why Muslim states see no

two faced standard in having Muslim states but saying Jews can not have a state.

Now I wish to tie the above into what Argus was stating about anti-semitism or to be specific what is more accurately referred to as the "new anti-semtism".

In classic anti-semitism their is discrimination against Jews in non Jewish states for being Jews. In new anti-semitism the discrimination against Jews continues but because they now choose to live in their own state.

In the classic anti semitism disparaging and negative generalizations are used to justify discrimination against Jews on an individual level. Int he new anti semitism disparaging and negative generalizations are made against jews who wish to express themselves on a collective state level.

A thorough explanation of the phenomena can be found at:

http://www.aish.com/jw/s/48930417.html

I thank Argus for raising it. It has nothing to do with criticizing specific Israeli policies. It has everything to do with making negartive comments about all Israelis who are Jews or the concept of Jews being allowed to live in a collective state.

The double standard Jacee uses to think Jews should not expect they be recognized as a collective state but see nothing wrong with Muslim states is a classic example of that discrimination.

I have no idea to get through to such people that when they deny Jews in this world what they do not deny anyone else and that is discriminatory.

To me its just an updated version of trying to put the Jew in his/gher place, in this case, a non Jewish state place. Its based on the concept that Jacee believes she has the right to tell Jews what their place is let alone what that place is.

Today Israel went in on the ground in Gaza in response to 12 Hamas soldiers using a tunnel to invade Israel.

Israel will now go in and start blowing up tunnels among other things. Its mission now is to stop the invasion of Israel not just by air with missiles but on the ground by tunnels or any other means.

Hamas has escalated the war, now Israel will respond.

There is a war going on right now. In this war Palestinian civilians will be killed because Hamas chooses to put them in harm's way. It is tragic. However Israel will not sit on its ass because Jacee or Hamas doesn't believe Jews should have a State.

Not that Jacee has not noticed, but Israel as a Jewish state is a fact. Asking them not to exist anymore as a Jewish state is as absurd as asking England to stop referring to itself as Anglican or the Vatican as Catholic. Say now will Jacee tell Saudi Arabia and all the other Muslim states who refer to themselves as Muslim states from doing so?

Yah right.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Rue

[Rue]

They dont have a right to demand anyone acknowledge their state religions either. They just have the right to their own sovereignty.

They do. That is the whole issue. If they did not, then Israel would not demand they recognize it as Jewish.

You really need to get out Dre. Maybe go visit these states and see how they refer to themselves as Muslim states in their constitutions and laws.

Here is a list you can start with where the states are referred to as Muslim states in their constitution and where discrimination against non Muslims is widely practiced:

Sudan

Yemen

Algeria

Afghanistan

Somalia

Iraq

Iran

Syria

Egypt

Palestinian Authority

Saudi Arabia

United Arab Emirates

Qatar

Tunisia

Mali

Malaysia

Pakistan

Libya

Muslim controlled areas of Nigeria

Kuwait

Lebanon

Turkey

Muslim controlled areas of the Phillippines

Oman

Here is the classic explanation of a Muslim state Dre:

http://www.hizb-ut-tahrir.org/PDF/EN/en_books_pdf/IslamicState.pdf

Since the above will probably be too difficult for you to grasp read the following quote:

"An Islamic state is bound to distinguish (i.e. discriminates) between Muslims and non-Muslims. However the Islamic law "Shari`a" guarantees to non-Muslims "certain specifically stated rights beyond which they are not permitted to meddle in the affairs of the state because they do not subscribe to its ideology." Once they embrace the Islamic faith, they "become equal participants in all matters concerning the state and the government."

The above comes from:

http://www.answering-islam.org/NonMuslims/rights.htm

As you can see in the Muslim concept of state which is what Hamas, Hezbollah, ISIS, Al Quaeda, the Muslim Brotherhood, Iran, etc. believe in, there is no seperation between the religion Islam and the state structure.

So for you to think Muslim states do not discriminate against non Muslims or for that matter exist is absurd.

Its also absurd for you or Jacee or anyone else to think Jews would want to live in such states that subject them like Christians, Bahaiis, Buddists, Hindus, atheists,agnostics, Berbers, Kurds, Druze, Assyrians, Christians, to inferior status.

Go find out what has happened to non Muslims in these states. That is the world Israel lives in and no it will not cease to exist and allow Muslims to wipe out Jews or return them to an oppressive world of apartheid and dhimmitude.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Rue

[dre]

As for Mr. Abbas, he has made it clear he will never accept a Jewish state.

He said he would recognize Israel, thats all that matters.

I have no idea to get through to such people that what they deny Jews in this world they do not deny anyone else and that is wrong.

Nonsense. Nobody is denying anyone anything. I dont recognize ANY state religions period, and its completely unnecessary. All thats required is the respect for national sovereignty, and the right of a state to exist. What happens inside any decide is up to them. If they are dumb enough to blend religion with politics thats their own problem.

I do think however she is unaware of the implications of her discrimination against Jews who choose to live as a collective expressed through statehood.

She isnt discriminating against them in any way shape or form.

The entire demand for anyone but Israelis to recognize an official state religion is nothing more than a poisonous pill designed to scuttle negotiations and make sure their is not negotiated settlement.

Rabin did, Barak did, Peres did, Shimon Peres did, even Menachem Begin did. So you are dead wrong on no one in Israel agreeing to that. Dead wrong.

Im talking about people in power right now. The Likud government will never accept any Arab state west of the Jordan, and they are very clear about that. So all this talk about negotiations is rather stupid. Maybe Israel will elect moderates in the future who knows, but the current reality is that the government of Israel has absolutely no interest in any negotiated solution.

[dre]

They do. That is the whole issue. If they did not, then Israel would not demand they recognize it as Jewish.

You really need to get out Dre. Maybe go visit these states and see how they refer to themselves as Muslim states in their constitutions and laws.

No again, that demand is a poison pill. All thats required for Israel to exist is the recognition of its sovereignty and territory. And Im not going back to the middle east any time soon.

As far as those countries you mentioned, they can claim any state religion they want to, but they cant force anyone else to recognize that. They have a legal right to ask other nations to respect their territorial sovereignty and nothing more.

Here is a list you can start with where the states are referred to as Muslim states in their constitution

Besides the point. Nobody is saying they wont recognize the sovereignty of Israel just because it has some garbage in its constitution about religion like the other backwater sh&^ holes you mentioned. Israel can have whatever it wants in its own constitution, and it will still be recognized as a state even if people dont describe it as a jewish state or recognize it as such.

Edited July 17, 2014 by dre

[Rue]

Israel defines Israel![/b]

.

Israel doesn't define anything. Its inanimate. Israel is the name used for the state.

Israelis define Israel.

Israelis make up Israel. Israelis vote in its members and define their laws and how they choose to define themselves.

Israelis choose a Jewish state.

Because of that very democratic fact, Abbas will only recognize Israel as a state, if it takes in sufficient numbers of Muslims to make them a majority so that they can vote to disband it as a Jewish state.

In Abbas' method he states, ANY MUSLIM ARAB WHO SELF IDENTIFIES AS A PALESTINIAN SHOULD BE ALLOWED BACK IN ISRAEL AND GRANTED CITIZENSHIP. Only upon that condition being fulfilled will Israel be recognized.

Its just a semantic word game of asking Israel to disband as a Jewish state and allow anyone who is non Jewish and a Muslim to move there so they can turn it into a Muslim state.

The mroe you try avoid that reality, the more absurd your comments get.

It is precisely because Israelis choose to be who they are, you have stated that they should not.

You are telling Israelis they have no right to identify as collective Jews.

So what's with this Israel defines Israel. No you have repeatedly and you have defined Israel as being non Jewish.

[dre]

Because of that very democratic fact, Abbas will only recognize Israel as a state, if it takes in sufficient numbers of Muslims to make them a majority so that they can vote to disband it as a Jewish state.

He made no such stipulation and in fact says he already recognizes the state of Israel as it is now.

I recognize Israel and reject violence and terrorism, and recognize international commitments.

[Rue]

Dre you stated:

"He (Abbas) said he would recognize Israel, thats all that matters."

Nonsense. Of course it matters. He also went on to say he will only recognize Israel provide ANY ARAB WHO IS MUSLIM WHO IDENTIFIES AS PALESTINIAN IS GRANTED AUTOMATIC RIGHT OF CITIZENSHIP ON ENTRY TO ISRAEL.

Read what he said. Of course it matters. He stated he will never recognize Israel as a Jewish state because to do so would mean it will never be a Muslim state, and he will only recognize it as a Muslim majority state which means he will only recognize Israel if it ceases to exist as Israel.

Your comment is past absurd. Your attempt to selectively ignore his actual full statement and ignore he is asking Israel disband as a Jewish state is the whole point.

You stated:

"Nonsense. Nobody is denying anyone anything. I dont recognize ANY state religions period, and its completely unnecessary."

Right. Mention one post when you came on this board and stated Muslim nations must disband as Muslim states.

Of course its necessary. To ask Israel to cease being Jewish but not ask Muslim states in the same breath to cease being Muslim is nonsensical. Muslim states do not recognize anyone who is non Muslim as having the same rights as Muslims. Its sheer nonsense to tell a jew or anyone, they should renounce the state protecting their rights to be Jewish while staying silent on Muslims continuing on with states that discriminate against non Muslims precisely because their states do not distinguish between religion and state.

Dance around that all you want but you set up a double standard, one where Jews should have no state and one where Muslims can have all the states they want.

Go on then. State it. State Muslims should not have Muslim states. Who you kidding.

You stated:

"All thats required is the respect for national sovereignty, and the right of a state to exist."

Hamas does nto recognize the national sovereignty of Israel. Never has, and has stated it never will.

Mr. Abbas has stated he will never respect the right of Israel to be a Jewish national sovereign state.

Your semantics doesn't change the above.

You stated"

"What happens inside any decide is up to them. If they are dumb enough to blend religion with politics thats their own problem."

Mr. Abbas has stated he will never recognize the right of Israel to be Jewish. He has repeated that over and over. That means precisely he does not recognize the right of the majority of Israelis inside Israel to be Jewish. Hamas has stated it will not stop until not only it removes Israel from the map but kills as many Jews around the world as is possible until that is achieved.

Tell me Dre are you that oblivious to those two facts? You want to pretend Abbas or Hamas respects the right of Israelis to decide their fate within their own country? Neither do and have stated so over and over again.

This is not simply about telling Israel to return to 1967 borders. Its about the charter of Hamas calling for a holy war to wipe out Israel. Its about Abbas standing up in his assembly cheering speakers crying out death to Israel. What world do you live in where you keep pretending Hamas or Abbas or any Arab state recognizes the right of Israel to live in peace as a Jewish state. Not even Jordan or Egypt dare say that.

You stated:

"She (Jacee) isnt discriminating against them, Israeli Jews) in any way shape or form."

Nonsense. She has stated repeatedly Jews should not have a Jewish state. She does not say that about Muslims or any other people. Its blatant discrimination and you repeat it as well.

You stated:

"The entire demand for anyone but Israelis to recognize an official state religion is nothing more than a poisonous pill designed to scuttle negotiations and make sure their is not negotiated settlement."

Bull. Absolute bull. Its the exact opposite. Imagining Canada saying to its native people-we do not recognize you as a collective but you must recognize us as a state. Give it a rest with your bias. Why would Israel recognize people who do not recognize it. Oh wait, in your world there is a double standard. Israel must recognize terrorists bent on wiping it out and Mr. Abbas who states he won't recognize it until it ceases to exist. Yah right that makes sense. Let's enter a peace agreement with terrorists whose charter calls for us to die and a political leader who says he will never recognize our collective identity but we must recognize his people's collective identity. Right.

You stated:

"Im talking about people in power right now. The Likud government will never accept any Arab state west of the Jordan, and they are very clear about that."

Yes and they are very clear that is the case because Hamas and Intifadah will not renounce terrorism and their war to wipe out Israel and because Abbas will not recognize Israel unless it agrees to become a majority Muslim state.

Why do you selectively miss why Likud has that position?

Also you are again being totally misleading. Likud, including Netanyahu have stated they would recognize a Palestinian state and consider pulling out if terrorists disarmed and Mr. Abbas recognizes Israel as a Jewish state. Netanyahu has said so repeatedly and for you to say he has not is absolutely false.

You stated:

"So all this talk about negotiations is rather stupid. Maybe Israel will elect moderates in the future who knows, but the current reality is that the government of Israel has absolutely no interest in any negotiated solution."

The only thing stupid is you believing Israel is not being moderate because it won't agree not to be recognized and won't agree to stop being a Jewish state.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Rue

[Rue]

He made no such stipulation and in fact says he already recognizes the state of Israel as it is now.

No he has not. Just the opposite. Repeating that falsehood over and over will not make it true.

http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/Abbas-I-will-not-recognize-Israel-as-Jewish-state-344670

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4114446,00.html

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2013/07/30/abbas-arabs-in-israel-no-jews-in-palestine-peace-process/

Edited July 17, 2014 by Rue

[dre]

No he has not. Just the opposite. Repeating that falsehood over and over will not make it true.

http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/Abbas-I-will-not-recognize-Israel-as-Jewish-state-344670

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4114446,00.html

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2013/07/30/abbas-arabs-in-israel-no-jews-in-palestine-peace-process/

I gave you an exact quote. And you obviously did not read your own links. All that Abass has refused to do is "publically acknowledge". He has not said he wont recognize Israel if it has a Jewish majority or it if has a jewish constitution. Not one of your links backed up your previous assertion in ANY WAY.

Even from your own link that you forgot to read...

Key Israeli demand that the Palestinians refuse to accept: PA acknowledgement of the legitimacy of Israel as a Jewish state.

And thats simply not necessary for a two state solution. All thats necessary is that the two states respect each others sovereignty. End of story.

Right. Mention one post when you came on this board and stated Muslim nations must disband as Muslim states.

Why would I entertain such a stupid request? I havent come on this board and said ANY state should disband. Just because I dont recognize a states official mythology doesnt mean I dont think that state has the right to exist.

[Hudson Jones]

The PLO accepted the Israeli demand to recognize the State of Israel decades ago and Israel never reciprocated with recognition of the State of Palestine or its right to exist. Now, while still denying self-determination to Palestinians, Israel demands recognition "as a Jewish state"

Recognizing it as a Jewish State, which is not required under international law, would mean the Palestinians would have to give up on the right of return of the Palestinians who were driven out of what is now the State of Israel 60 years ago. The only reason Netanyahu makes this demand is that he knows the Palestinians cannot accept it.

The arrogance of the Zionists to demand that the Palestinians to accept it as a "Jewish State", when they have already formally accepted it as a State and while Israel has done all in its power to not recognize and not allow a Palestinian State to be formed is disgusting to witness.

[jacee]

Now let's move on from your misrepresentations to Jacee's continuous comments that Israel should not expect to be recognized as Jewish.

I would expect that. This is someone who has no problems with there being Muslim states, Catholic states, an Anglican state. Its only if its a Jewish one she discriminates and uses her discriminatory standard. Fully expected.

UNWARRANTED Personal attack noted.

I think you'd better read my post again rue, and actually try to understand it, instead of misrepresenting what I'm saying.

I don't give a rat's ass what kind of state anybody wants to be: It's nobody's business but the people of that state. They don't need anybody else's approval.

Israel is a state. Palestine is becoming a state. Each must recognize the other ... as a state. That's it, that's all.

Beyond that, what kind of state Israel chooses to be is up to the citizens of Israel. Israel is a Jewish state. Israel doesn't need Palestine's approval or recognition to be a Jewish state. It already is, because it wants to be.

What Hamas or I or anybody else thinks of that is entirely irrelevant.

Israel defines itself.

She also ignores why Abbas will not recognize Israel as a Jewish state. He has stated if he did that he would be forced to give up the notion that ANY ARAB WHO IDENTIFIES AS PALESTINIAN could not return to Israel and be granted automatic citizenship.

The very reason he and no other Arab leader will come out and acknowledge Israel exists as a Jewish state is because it flies in the face of their Muslim religious ideological concept that Jews can have a state. In Islam Jews can not own land or have a state. That is where it originates. Its why Muslim states see no

two faced standard in having Muslim states but saying Jews can not have a state.

Who cares what they think!

Israel defines itself!

The double standard Jacee uses to think Jews should not expect they be recognized as a collective state but see nothing wrong with Muslim states is a classic example of that discrimination.

...

Its based on the concept that Jacee believes she has the right to tell Jews what their place is let alone what that place is.

...

However Israel will not sit on its ass because Jacee or Hamas doesn't believe Jews should have a State.

Read my post again, rue. See if you can actually understand it.

Not that Jacee has not noticed, but Israel as a Jewish state is a fact.

Read my post again rue.

That was my whole point.

And here's my question:

Why does Israel insist on defining itself by what Hamas or Palestine thinks?

It's a ridiculous demand, pathetically whining and subjugating itself ... to seek approval from Hamas?

Israel doesn't need anybody's approval or acceptance.

Israel defines itself.

READ MY POST!!

You owe me an apology rue.

You're knee-jerk overreaction is based in stereotyping me and attacking me for things I did not say and do not believe, things that are disgusting to me.

.

Edited July 18, 2014 by jacee

[jacee]

Theres no good reason for the religion of the state to BE on the table in the first place. Just sayin'

Exactly.

.

[Hudson Jones]

Israel is always re-drawing the line in the sand. There is always a reason for Israel not to end the status quo and to recognize a Palestinian State.

Palestinian officials say that the demand for recognition has increasingly been made in recent years and months as an Israeli ploy to make a peace deal harder to reach.

Speaking to foreign journalists in Ramallah recently, former negotiator Nabil Shaath complained that the issue was preoccupying Mr Kerry even though it was not included in past talks or any signed documents or agreements between Israel and the Palestinians.

"The only solid statement about the agenda of the permanent-status negotiations is in the Oslo Declaration of Principles, which spells out exactly the agenda to be discussed and that includes Jerusalem, borders, settlements, water, security and refugees," he said.

Mr Shaath stressed that the Egyptians and Jordanians did not have to recognise Israel as a Jewish state when they signed peace treaties.

"Do you think that any Palestinian leader in his right mind can ever accept this or is this simply an attempt to make it impossible for any Palestinian leader to sign a peace agreement with Israel?" he asked rhetorically. "This is a new torpedo for the blame game."

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