kidnapped Israeli teens bodies found

[WestCoastRunner]

As much as I am concerned with children being killed, do we need another thread?

[marcus]

As much as I am concerned with children being killed, do we need another thread?

Another thread I was posting in on this topic is gone.

[bush_cheney2004]

As much as I am concerned with children being killed, do we need another thread?

This is typical for the forum whenever "Conflict: Dirt Farm" erupts in another cycle of attacks. There are multiple topics and counter-topics, complete with passionate pleas and accusations of blame for the "other side". Things wind down after the rocket supply is depleted and/or Israel mops up launchers/stores with ground incursions. Rinse and repeat.

ME conflict and climate change topics are like the Energizer bunny.

Edited July 17, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[marcus]

This is typical for the forum whenever "Conflict: Dirt Farm" erupts in another cycle of attacks. There are multiple topics and counter-topics, complete with passionate pleas and accusations of blame for the "other side". Things wind down after the rocket supply is depleted and/or Israel mops up launchers/stores with ground incursions. Rinse and repeat.

ME conflict and climate change topics are like the Energizer bunny.

That is mostly true. Except that Israel continues to hurt itself and there is a shift. The world public opinion has already shifted against the Israeli government and now you're seeing governments also do the same. European governments can no longer sweep Israel's actions under the table. They have already taken action against Israel's occupation and the movement will continue to work against Israel.

Israel's actions are no longer sustainable.

[bush_cheney2004]

....Israel's actions are no longer sustainable.

Israel's strategy has always been thus....from settlements to military operations that can be bargained away to achieve an acceptable compromise that still preserves sovereignty and regional dominance. The "world" is not exactly coming to Palestine's defense....never has.

[marcus]

Israel's strategy has always been thus....from settlements to military operations that can be bargained away to achieve an acceptable compromise that still preserves sovereignty and regional dominance. The "world" is not exactly coming to Palestine's defense....never has.

I disagree. The BDS movement is having an effect. The non-governmental movement has started to hit Israel culturally, academically and economically. Much like how the end of Apartheid South Africa was started.

I recommend checking this out to learn a little about the effects and the momentum of the BDS movement.

[WestCoastRunner]

Israel's actions are no longer sustainable.

Not according to our beloved Harper;

“The indiscriminate rocket attacks from Gaza on Israel are terrorist acts, for which there is no justification,” Harper said in a statement issued Sunday.

“It is evident that Hamas is deliberately using human shields to further terror in the region.”

Harper also called on other world leaders to rally behind Israel as it tries to prevent rockets being fired from Gaza into its territory.

Silence, he suggested, would only embolden Israel’s attackers.

“Failure by the international community to condemn these reprehensible actions would encourage these terrorists to continue their appalling actions,” Harper said.

“Canada calls on its allies and partners to recognize that these terrorist acts are unacceptable and that solidarity with Israel is the best way of stopping the conflict.”

You see, Harper and company fully support Israel and it's attacks.

[marcus]

Not according to our beloved Harper;

“The indiscriminate rocket attacks from Gaza on Israel are terrorist acts, for which there is no justification,” Harper said in a statement issued Sunday.

“It is evident that Hamas is deliberately using human shields to further terror in the region.”

Harper also called on other world leaders to rally behind Israel as it tries to prevent rockets being fired from Gaza into its territory.

Silence, he suggested, would only embolden Israel’s attackers.

“Failure by the international community to condemn these reprehensible actions would encourage these terrorists to continue their appalling actions,” Harper said.

“Canada calls on its allies and partners to recognize that these terrorist acts are unacceptable and that solidarity with Israel is the best way of stopping the conflict.”

You see, Harper and company fully support Israel and it's attacks.

Yes. Harper is heavily influenced by the Zionist lobby in Canada. This is no secret. But he is in the minority when it comes to the rest of the world. Even when it comes to Western countries. Just so I don't repeat, please see the link above about the BDS movement and momentum.

[marcus]

Palestine and it's leadership would also be subject to identical "war crimes" for the rocket attacks and other civilian killings.

There is nothing identical about their actions and the results.

[bush_cheney2004]

There is nothing identical about their actions and the results.

They don't have to be "identical"...purposely targeting civilians is a "war crime" under distinction law according to the Geneva Convention and Rome Statute, which Palestine has tried to become a party to, only to be rebuffed by the ICC as a non state. The ICC (doesn't even apply to non-signatory Israel), is "victor's justice".

[bush_cheney2004]

...I recommend checking this out to learn a little about the effects and the momentum of the BDS movement.

The so called BDS movement is not served well by violent rocket attacks that kill civilians.

[GostHacked]

I was taught and will never stop believing that Muslims like any people have good and bad but I will not stereotype them all as bad just as I wish people would stop doing the same with Jews, Zionists, Israelis, etc.

But Zionism seems to be the real issue. Someone here even called me an anti-semite because I understand the difference between a Jew, an Israeli, and a zionist. Essentially being accused of broad brushing it.

Personally I'd love it all the 'god' loving whack jobs just got all rapture'd away already so the rest of us can have some peace.

[Boges]

Personally I'd love it all the 'god' loving whack jobs just got all rapture'd away already so the rest of us can have some peace.

Again more moral relativism. Israel is the only pluralistic society in the region. But their religion is just as bad as those people that are hiding behind children hoping those with liberal guilt will feel sorry for them.

SHEESH!

[Boges]

Now where I will fault the West and "Religion" is there's a strong American movement called Christian Zionism.

Vice did segment about it.

Now these asshats in the Bible belt are funding the Israelis not because they believe they have the right to exist but because the Bible says that when there's a Jewish State in the Holy Land the End Times will happen.

This above video shows Christians that stand be harmed due to the conflict and the Christians are like Meh, they shouldn't be there anyway.

If God was going to bring on the end times he wouldn't be swayed by the efforts of people in Texas trying to protect the Jewish tate.

[Smallc]

How dare Harper defend the ability of a democratic state to defend itself.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Smallc

[bush_cheney2004]

Now where I will fault the West and "Religion" is there's a strong American movement called Christian Zionism.

Vice did segment about it.

Are you kidding ? That's how/why you would fault the "West" ? You just want to conveniently forget the history of Israel and Jews before and after that nation's independence from the UK's Palestine mandate, France's role in the region, American Cold War policies, and oil wars ?

Christian Zionists are too blame ? Seriously ?

[Boges]

Christian Zionists are too blame ? Seriously ?

Not completely. But they aren't really helping the situation.

[bush_cheney2004]

Not completely. But they aren't really helping the situation.

Who is ? It's an intractable conflict with lots of groups working their own agenda. Christian Zionists are free to believe and support whatever they want, just like everyone else with and without an axe to grind over Israel.

[Michael Hardner]

Another thread I was posting in on this topic is gone.

Yes - it was merged because these are all part of the same current events, basically the result from the kidnapped Israeli teens and the fighting that ensued.

I am going to merge this thread in with those too, Marcus. It really doesn't warrant a new thread.

[Rue]

To Boges:

Do you think when Jews were attacked while in a synaguge a night ago, the attackers were saying before they attacked-excuse me are you Zionist Jews,or just Jew Jews? Would you get serious, Hamas does not and has never distinguished between Jews and Zionist Jews.

As for your position about religious states, until you come on this board and insist the Vatican stop being Catholic, England stop referring to itself as Anglican, Eire, Catholic, and until you argue all Muslim states should not be Muslim, your selectivity of only criticizing Jews for having their own state, speaks for itself.

Jews started a country because of their treatment in Christian and Muslim countries. We liberated ourselves through forming a political collective.

You want to set up a standard where everyone in the world can do this but Jews and that Zionism is to be smeered as fanatical religious movement I call b..s The Jewish identity Zionism envisioned was not a religious one it was a political one. It was a political reaction and liberation from Christian and Muslim states. The creation of Jewish state offered refuge for Jews from Christian and Muslim states. Zionism is about using the state to guarantee Jews will never again be discriminated again by a state, The definition of Jew is not simply someone who practices Judaism. As well Christian and Muslim Jews have their own courts and elect their own representatives and have democratic rights, all the rights Jews still do not have in Muslim countries and for that matter certain Christian countries.

To Jacee:

In your response to me you now appear to be dancing backwords and denying you suggested Hamas offered to agree to a two state solution.

Finish your lecture. Explain how Israel is to recognize a terrorist organization whose Charter calls for its extermination and the killing of ALL Jews worldwide until this is done.

Please explain.

Please explain how Israel should sit on its ass when Hamas shoots rockets into its territory. Please explain.

The majority of Israeli people are under attack and forced to head to bomb shelters continuously. Israel has a moral obligation to protect its people from these attacks and it will do what is necessary to protect its people.

If innocent Palestinians die it is tragic but it is as a direct result of Hamas choosing deliberately to insert civilians as shields in harm's way.

No you do not understand Gaza or its citizens Jacee. You are an arm chair leftist who thinks of the world in simplistic terms of good versus evil. bug bad poo Israel v.s. innocent victim Palestinian.

In your world, you conveniently ignore Hamas. You ignore its culpability for deliberately placing its own people in harm's way so they can die to promote a p.r. backlash for it.

Understand what Hamas is. Stop assuming you speak for the people they hold hostage.Hamas will continue to get its people killed for propaganda purposes. Get real. It refused a cease fire. It wants to continue getting its civilians killed as a political tool to gain sympathy.

Its own people are held hostage and Hamas is empowered because people like you feed right into what it is doing.

If you knew anything about Gaza you would know its choice to use homes, schools, mosques, hospitals, community centres as missile sites and to store ammunition is deliberate. It does not have to. It chooses to. It wants civilians killed. Go read their ideology. They believe this is a moral political

exercise. It believes killing its people deliberately is a religious rite and acceptable under its version of Islam.

You have no clue that Gaza citizens are being held hostage by it.

Until Hamas and its other fanatical allies are disarmed Palestinians will continue to be killed by its policy to use them as shields.

You keep selectively ignoring what it does and instead blame Israel and ignore it. You won't be the first or last on this forum. You can join Boges on accusing Israel as being a religious extremist concept and ignore Hamas and its version of Islam. Go ahead.

By the way Jacee and Boges, those of us who lived in Israel or still live there, we are not the stereotype you spit out. We do not think the way you say we do. You have no clue what we think or what our values are. You Jacee and your attempt to portray as Palestinians all thinking the same and wanting liberation from Israel are ridiculous. To start with you need to know who controls their day to day movement and makes the decision to kill them. You have no clue precisely because you have no clue how Hamas operates and how it is able to use its civilians as shields. No they do not volunteer to die and have their children placed in harm's way. Go find out what happens to them if they try flee.

Your ignorance as to Hamas' tactics on its own people is staggering. You want to romanticize them? They are not freedom fighters. They are war criminals.

[Rue]

Boges Christian Zionists support Israel's right to exist as a Jewish nation as part of their Christian beliefs that a Jewish state would be created before the Messiah returns. Your attempt to now smeer them all as supporting killing innocent Palestinian civilians is b.s.

Christian Zionists like Jewish Zionists or any other Zionists don't sit around asking for Palestinians to be killed. Stop with the smeers.

Supporting Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state does not mean people want Palestinians to die.

Point your finger of moral righteousness at Hamas where it belongs.

[marcus]

This is a fantastic and important read about the narrative created, in which the Palestinians are accused of violence and provoking Israel to attack:

"Does Hamas provoke Israel to attack Gaza?

"By far the most consistent and the most definitive aspect of Palestinian resistance to the occupation and theft of their homeland over the decades has been non-violent civil disobedience. Resistance for Palestinians is definitive of who and what they are. They might be a poet like Mahmoud Darwish, a novelist like Ghassan Kanafani, a film-maker like Michel Khleifi, an artist like Mona Hatoum, a feminist like Lila Abu Lughod - but in doing what they do, whatever they do, they oppose and defy the armed robbery of their homeland. But there are also those Palestinians who have taken arms and opposed villainy by violence. As part of this resistance, Hamas is integral to the Palestinian national liberation movement, but like any other forms of resistance, Hamas is not definitive to Palestine."

Link

Edited July 17, 2014 by marcus

[Boges]

Boges Christian Zionists support Israel's right to exist as a Jewish nation as part of their Christian beliefs that a Jewish state would be created before the Messiah returns. Your attempt to now smeer them all as supporting killing innocent Palestinian civilians is b.s.

Christian Zionists like Jewish Zionists or any other Zionists don't sit around asking for Palestinians to be killed. Stop with the smeers.

Supporting Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state does not mean people want Palestinians to die.

Point your finger of moral righteousness at Hamas where it belongs.

Never said they were. But they're rather ambivalent about it.

Israel has been a Jewish state since the 40's, WHO'S THE ANTICHRIST ALREADY!!!?????

This John Hagee guy is hilarious to the point of being pathetic how he tries to interpret every event that happens in the Middle East as evidence of the end times.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Boges

[Boges]

"By far the most consistent and the most definitive aspect of Palestinian resistance to the occupation and theft of their homeland over the decades has been non-violent civil disobedience.

Except when it's randomly firing rockets into populated areas.

[bush_cheney2004]

The internationally recognized terrorist organization known as Hamas was elected for a unity government. I guess rocket attacks are a real vote getter in Palestine.