kidnapped Israeli teens bodies found

[bush_cheney2004]

...This John Hagee guy is hilarious to the point of being pathetic how he tries to interpret every event that happens in the Middle East as evidence of the end times.

So what...he/they have very little or no bearing on actual government policies and actions. Do you really think this or other groups can cause the "end of time" ? What religion is that ?

[Boges]

Do you really think this or other groups can cause the "end of time" ? What religion is that ?

I think they believe they can.

Look I'm in full in support of Israel but there is this faction of people in the US that try to provide financial influence in the area not because they really care about either side. They just want to be raptured.

[Rue]

Boges I debate you in the spirit of debate on this forum but I really can not debate you on the fact that and I say this with absolute respect, certain Christian Zionists are shall we say "out there". I respect you so I debate you, but uh yer only making me smile on your last response. Religious fanaticism whetehr it be jewish, Christian or Muslim uh yah it can get absurd yes. I got your point. I do think Christian Zionists in the states are a powerful lobby group for Israel and yes some of them can get downright wacko but my point is I don't think its fair to pain them all wacko or condoning Palestinians dying.

I commend those Christians who have reached out to Jews and formed friendships as I have with them. All I am trying to say is Israel exists not only because of Jews, but because of righteous non Jews, i.e., Christians and Muslims that helped us.

That is all I mean.

[bush_cheney2004]

I think they believe they can.

Look I'm in full in support of Israel but there is this faction of people in the US that try to provide financial influence in the area not because they really care about either side. They just want to be raptured.

Again...so what ? They have a constitutional right to believe whatever they wish and act accordingly within the law. They could all die tomorrow and nothing about this situation would change...not one bit.

[Boges]

Again...so what ? They have a constitutional right to believe whatever they wish and act accordingly within the law. They could all die tomorrow and nothing about this situation would change...not one bit.

Sure just like all these champagne activists boycott anything related to Israel because they believe that Israel is just like Pre-Slavery USA or Apartheid South Africa.

They have the right to do that too. Doesn't mean it's right.

[bush_cheney2004]

Sure just like all these champagne activists boycott anything related to Israel because they believe that Israel is just like Pre-Slavery USA or Apartheid South Africa.

They have the right to do that too. Doesn't mean it's right.

Doesn't matter...they have the right to believe such things and/or act within legal constraints. There are numerous side shows spawned from this and many other conflicts around the world. No big deal.....

Edited July 17, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[Moonlight Graham]

Oh those wacky Palestinians and Israelis, at it again.

[Rue]

To anyone on this forum I am debating with-my words sound more heated then they are meant to be. I only mean to debate. I debate because I respect people's right to disagree. I do not mean to come on this board at any time and condone violence in our debates.

I am going to try offer to talk again about peace, not just defend Israel because as a poster said, yes these posts when the missiles start firing reate a barrage of posts then dries up once the missiles stop.

Rhetoric as to who is right or wrong won't resolve this conflict. For peace to come about:

1-terrorists must be disarmed

2-the Arab world needs to get over its inability to accept a Jewish state

3-in return for disarming terrorists and recognizing a Jewish state, Israel could then recognize in return a second Palestinian state in Jordan

4-in return for Israelis deported by Arab League of Nations countries giving up their rights to compensation, Palestinians would give up their right to return to Israel;

5-Israel would withdraw to 1967 borders in phases as disarmament of terrorists took place

6-Jordan, Israel and the West Bank nation without terrorism could then create a free market that would enable citizens in all 3 nations the ability to trave quickly across each other's borders and use each other's roads and airports and ports and exchange water,electricity,oil and food

7-agreements in regards to sewage disposal, garbage disposal, green projects would be implemented.

Reasonable people want the above on both sides. The problem is who can they speak to, to get this done? Palestinians can not ask Hamas to do this..Hamas will kill on the spot anyone who suggests the above.

If I presented the above in Israel, I would get a simple answer-" just who do we enter this agreement with?"

Israelis do not have anyone in Palestine to negotiate with. They tried, Arafat ripped up Oslo and laughed at Camp David and stated over and over he would never recognize a Jewish state. Mr.Abbas has simply carried that on.

For those of you who say, there is no peace because Israel is caught up on insisting it be recognized as a Jewish state, not just a state, I must tell you, if it was only a semantic issue sure it might not be a problem but it is not that simple. At this time Mr. Abbas has stated and again, he will not recognize Israel unless not only is it not a Jewish state, but until it agrees to take back in a ANY ARAB WHO IS NOT JEWISH WHO CLAIMS TO BE PALESTINIAN.

That is just a coded reference for turning Israel into a Muslim majority state.

Its just another way of saying disband Israel and give it back to Muslims.

Mr. Abbas for me is not an honest man. When the 3 Israelis were kidnapped and killed he never called their families. In fact he has in the past called terrorists who killed Israelis and gave them complements. When the fool in Israel lit some Palestinian boy on fire in what appears to be a retaliation, Israel tracked that fool down and Netanyahu called the dead boys father and apologized.

Abbas stood up in his assembly giving a standing ovation to chants of death to Israel.

For me I think as long as he represents the Palestinian Authority and as long as Hamas holds its people hostage in Gaza, will prevent any peace.

I think they fuel Netanyahu's responses. Netanyahu is fueled by their intransigence.

Its not a difficult concept. If Palestinians denounced terror and recognized Israel as a Jewish state, the IDF would return to their barracks.No gets, no ground wars. Look at Jordan and Egypt. They prove peace side by side Israel is possible.

The tragedy is that Palestinians die and Israelis die because we can not find Arab moderates and Palestinian moderates who will come forth and say-the terrorism and denial of Israel has not worked, enough! Let's sit and talk peace.

Who in Israel would deny such an offer? The Israeli PM offered 97% of the West Bank back for peace. Arafat laughed in his face.

What is Israel to do? Some of you want them to agree to do nothing as they are attacked. That is impossible.

I come on this forum in support of Israel but I am also in support of a second Palestinian state, and mutual cooperation and respect.

So what do Israelis do without a peace partner?

So who else?

Colin Powell could do it but he is retired and the current US government won't let him. It would undermine their own failed foreign policies.

I think the only moderator at this point capable of pushing for a peace would be Colin Powell. He is respected by both sides. It is precisely because he is a soldier he would be respected. To understand the Middle East you must have military training.

Next you need a support staff of lawyers. There are so man laws at so many levels in conflict, it becomes both a military conflict and a legal conflict.

We could find neutral moderators but it would require the Arab League of Nations flexing their muscle and saying to Hamas and Hezbolah and Intifadah NO MORE!

The Arab League right now is paralyzed. It can not stop Hezbollah, ISIS, Al Quaeda, Hamas, Intifada, on and on.Muslim fundemantalism and related terrorism are a reality al over the Arab world and destabilize their countries and fuel conflicts throughout the Middle East to Aghanistan, Pakistan, India , China and Russia, not to mention friction in Europe and now on American soil.

The civil wars we have seen in Tunisia, Sudan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen,Algeria, Libya, are directly the result of Muslim fundamentalism.

We need to find a way to find and encourage Muslim moderates to speak out and offer a viable alternative to their current status quo.

Easier said than done.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Rue

[bush_cheney2004]

....So who else?

Dennis Rodman ?

[Argus]

But Zionism seems to be the real issue. Someone here even called me an anti-semite because I understand the difference between a Jew, an Israeli, and a zionist. Essentially being accused of broad brushing it.

Personally I'd love it all the 'god' loving whack jobs just got all rapture'd away already so the rest of us can have some peace.

Anti-Semites have a habit of using 'Zionist' when they mean 'Jew' because Zionist can be excused as being political. However, it's generally used to describe pretty much any Jew who supports the state of Israel (which is the vast majority of them), as well as all Israelis.

Human rights abuses occur around the word, most of them considerably worse than what's happening in the territories, but an oddly large number of people focus all their attention on The Israeli/\Palestine issue, always bemoaning the tragic plight of people who insist on firing rockets into the territory of their much more powerful neighbour.

[Black Dog]

Anti-Semites have a habit of using 'Zionist' when they mean 'Jew' because Zionist can be excused as being political. However, it's generally used to describe pretty much any Jew who supports the state of Israel (which is the vast majority of them), as well as all Israelis.

And nothing gets people on your side politically like calling them Jew-haters.

Human rights abuses occur around the word, most of them considerably worse than what's happening in the territories, but an oddly large number of people focus all their attention on The Israeli/\Palestine issue, always bemoaning the tragic plight of people who insist on firing rockets into the territory of their much more powerful neighbour.

Because it's all about the rockets. If it wasn't for the rockets, everything would be fine.

[Argus]

And nothing gets people on your side politically like calling them Jew-haters.

You're suggesting this isn't about Jew hatred? Why the focus then? Why does the only Jewish state get so much bad press when it's probably the 79th worst human right violator in the world?

You think the Palestinians would like to trade places with North Koreans?

Edited July 17, 2014 by Argus

[dre]

1-terrorists must be disarmed

2-the Arab world needs to get over its inability to accept a Jewish state

3-in return for disarming terrorists and recognizing a Jewish state, Israel could then recognize in return a second Palestinian state in Jordan

4-in return for Israelis deported by Arab League of Nations countries giving up their rights to compensation, Palestinians would give up their right to return to Israel;

5-Israel would withdraw to 1967 borders in phases as disarmament of terrorists took place

6-Jordan, Israel and the West Bank nation without terrorism could then create a free market that would enable citizens in all 3 nations the ability to trave quickly across each other's borders and use each other's roads and airports and ports and exchange water,electricity,oil and food

7-agreements in regards to sewage disposal, garbage disposal, green projects would be implemented.

Reasonable people want the above on both sides. The problem is who can they speak to, to get this done? Palestinians can not ask Hamas to do this..Hamas will kill on the spot anyone who suggests the above.

Theres nobody on EITHER side with any interest in negotiating the above with the exception of maybe Abbas. Preventing the establishment of ANY Arab state west of the river jordan is a core Constitutional plank for Likud. They are not honest negotiators in this any more than Hamas.

Israel would not agree to your 7 stipulations even if there was no terrorism originating from the occupied territories.

[Black Dog]

You're suggesting this isn't about Jew hatred?

Certainly not for everyone. And those who equate criticizing the state with hatred of the people don't help their own cause.

Why the focus then? Why does the only Jewish state get so much bad press when it's probably the 79th worst human right violator in the world?

You think the Palestinians would like to trade places with North Koreans?

I would guess it has something to do with the fact that Israel is a democracy and ally and, as such, is rightly held to a higher standard than places like the Congo or China or Syria or other places where human rights abuses are widespread. People expect better plus there's a greater chance of actually changing things there. A lot of the left also has a thing for underdogs, especially when their seen as victims of colonialism.So yeah: a lot of people who align with Palestine are idealistic or misguided. But they don't necessarily hate Jews and to pretend that's all there is to it is rather unfair and counterproductive.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Black Dog

[Boges]

I would guess it has something to do with the fact that Israel is a democracy and ally and, as such, is rightly held to a higher standard than places like the Congo or China or Syria or other places where human rights abuses are widespread. People expect better plus there's a greater chance of actually changing things there. A lot of the left also has a thing for underdogs, especially when their seen as victims of colonialism.So yeah: a lot of people who align with Palestine are idealistic or misguided. But they don't necessarily hate Jews and to pretend that's all there is to it is rather unfair and counterproductive.

It's been said in this thread that a 2-state solution could be had if Israel wasn't named a Jewish state. That would indicate some hatred for the Jews.

Also to the point of a higher standard. I suppose that's why they send warning shot and call people before bombing an area. I wonder how a Western country would react is someone started firing rockets into civilian areas.

[Black Dog]

It's been said in this thread that a 2-state solution could be had if Israel wasn't named a Jewish state. That would indicate some hatred for the Jews.

Or maybe a particular dislike for states that privilege certain religions over others. Personally, I'm not a fan of theocracy in any form.

Is there any reason Israel couldn't be a pluralistic democracy like pretty much all the western states while still retaining its fundamental Jewish character?

Also to the point of a higher standard. I suppose that's why they send warning shot and call people before bombing an area.

And where exactly are people supposed to go when the whole strip is under attack?

And I guess the warning to those kids who were killed while playing soccer on the beach yesterday must have been lost in the mail.

I wonder how a Western country would react is someone started firing rockets into civilian areas.

Dunno. How many western countries maintain open air prisons with almost 2 million people inside?

Edited July 17, 2014 by Black Dog

[dre]

It's been said in this thread that a 2-state solution could be had if Israel wasn't named a Jewish state. That would indicate some hatred for the Jews.

Also to the point of a higher standard. I suppose that's why they send warning shot and call people before bombing an area. I wonder how a Western country would react is someone started firing rockets into civilian areas.

I dont think a two state solution is even remotely possible unless both sides radically change course. And as I said, I think the demand for recognition as a "jewish" state specifically is just a distraction. Whats important is that Israels sovereignty is respected. Demands by either side for some sort of special religious recognition are unhelpful and are obstacles to any kind of agreement.

[Boges]

Or maybe a particular dislike for states that privilege certain religions over others. Personally, I'm not a fan of theocracy in any form.

Is there any reason Israel couldn't be a pluralistic democracy like pretty much all the western states while still retaining its fundamental Jewish character?

Dunno but it's kind of ironic that a nation surrounded by Islamic theocracies refuse to deal with a "theocracy" of another religion.

And where exactly are people supposed to go when the whole strip is under attack?

And I guess the warning to those kids who were killed while playing soccer on the beach yesterday must have been lost in the mail.

Perhaps you should ask the people who make areas close to civilians military target. BTW Gaza has a border with another country. Why does Egypt have their back, why can't the go there? Oh because Egypt just deposed a Sunni government and Hamas is largely Sunni?

[GostHacked]

Anti-Semites have a habit of using 'Zionist' when they mean 'Jew' because Zionist can be excused as being political. However, it's generally used to describe pretty much any Jew who supports the state of Israel (which is the vast majority of them), as well as all Israelis.

When I use the term Zionist, it has been to a specific entity which is a political body. I would even argue that there are Zionists who are not even Israeli or Jewish. But being an atheist, it is kind of funny to have the term 'anti-semite' apply to me when I really can't stand the major organized religion.

It's a nice tactic to kill debate. Call him a Jew hater, that should work. Right?

Human rights abuses occur around the word, most of them considerably worse than what's happening in the territories, but an oddly large number of people focus all their attention on The Israeli/\Palestine issue, always bemoaning the tragic plight of people who insist on firing rockets into the territory of their much more powerful neighbour.

Well, the reason I know more about this than many others is due to the media in which it was typically reported on. I've been hearing about this conflict since I was a kid. Reported on more than most issues. Well, that may be the case typically before the days of ubiquitous internet technology.

[Black Dog]

Dunno but it's kind of ironic that a nation surrounded by Islamic theocracies refuse to deal with a "theocracy" of another religion.

What do you mean?

Perhaps you should ask the people who make areas close to civilians military target.

So even when Israel screws up, they're blameless. Nice gig. And of course, as I've already pointed out, all of Gaza is a civilian area, so it's not like Hamas has anywhere else they can operate (which is not to say they aren't intentionally operating in areas where civilian casualties will be maximized).

BTW Gaza has a border with another country. Why does Egypt have their back, why can't the go there? Oh because Egypt just deposed a Sunni government and Hamas is largely Sunni?

i suppose that's it.

[dre]

You're suggesting this isn't about Jew hatred? Why the focus then? Why does the only Jewish state get so much bad press when it's probably the 79th worst human right violator in the world?

Same reason Iraq was invaded on humantarian grounds even though there were much much worse humanitarian situations all around the world. Theres a special focus on the middle east by the west for all kinds of reasons. And the situation there is unique...theres not very many large stateless populations in the world, and the violence there is constantly threatening to spill over into other parts of the region. We have a modern democracy with an official policy of keeping millions of people perpetually stateless.

It would be odd if there WASNT the kind of focus there is.

[GostHacked]

You're suggesting this isn't about Jew hatred? Why the focus then? Why does the only Jewish state get so much bad press when it's probably the 79th worst human right violator in the world?

You think the Palestinians would like to trade places with North Koreans?

No bombs dropping on North Korea. A lot more open land which can be made into farmland. Has a shoreline, ports, rocket program. North Korea as dictatorial as it is, would be better than Gaza and the West Bank. They might even consider it Paradise. And they have a nuke which seems to put them into a different category when being addressed on the international level. Lots of talk, no action against them.

But hey, by the same notion, why don't the Israelis move there?

What makes the Jews right of return more valid than the population's right to stay, that was displaced?

[Boges]

What do you mean?

All nations in the region are theocracies, why can't Israel be one?. It's not a matter of Isreal maintaining it's "Jewishness" more that it appears that the other side appears unwilling to play ball if they're talking peace with a "Jewish" state.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Boges

[dre]

All nations in the reason are theocracies, why can't Israel be one?. It's not a matter of Isreal maintaining it's "Jewishness" more that it appears that the other side appears unwilling to play ball if they're talking peace with a "Jewish" state.

They can do whatever they want, they just cant demand that others recognize it. And like I said, its a distraction from the real issue which is that Israels neighbors need to respect its status as a state and its territorial sovereignty.

[Black Dog]

All nations in the reason are theocracies, why can't Israel be one?.

From my pov it's because theocracies suck. (And I know Israel is not technically a theocracy, but let's roll with it).