This week in Islam

[drummindiver]

8 minutes ago, WestCoastRunner said:

Honour killing is domestic violence. Call it what it is. It's a disservice to the victims when you try and justify it. 

Honour killing  is domestic abuse as the result of Islam.Taking  out the religion is when you do a disservice to the vitim. 

[WestCoastRunner]

Just now, drummindiver said:

Honour killing  is domestic abuse as the result of Islam.Taking  out the religion is when you do a disservice to the vitim. 

No. taking out the religion places more responsibility on the asshole. 

[drummindiver]

2 minutes ago, WestCoastRunner said:

No. taking out the religion places more responsibility on the asshole. 

I agree it places the onus more on him

My point is that without religon this doesn't happen.

 

[WestCoastRunner]

Just now, drummindiver said:

I agree it places the onus more on him

My point is that without religon this doesn't happen.

 

Of course it happens. Check out the white men in Canada who murder their partners for bringing dishonour to themselves ie. leaving them, taking their children away. Same story. Women end up dead. 

[DogOnPorch]

5 minutes ago, WestCoastRunner said:

Of course it happens. Check out the white men in Canada who murder their partners for bringing dishonour to themselves ie. leaving them, taking their children away. Same story. Women end up dead. 

 

What's the most recent case of non-Muslim honor killing?

[WestCoastRunner]

1 minute ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

What's the most recent case of non-Muslim honor killing?

As I said, no such thing as honour killing. It's domestic killings. 

[Argus]

57 minutes ago, WestCoastRunner said:

Honour killing is domestic violence. Call it what it is. It's a disservice to the victims when you try and justify it. 

Honor killing is based on a need to kill a female to protect the honor of the family name. It isn't just wives who are killed that way, but daughters and sisters, and it isn't just husbands who do it. Sometimes entire extended families get together to murder a woman who has done something outrageous which might cost the family honor, like being seen walking unchaperoned with a male, for example, or liking rock music. It is rarely something done on the spur of the moment in a drunken rage, but usually premeditated and planned.

You clearly don't care about the victims, though. All you're interested in doing is excusing the raw, violent misogyny of Islam.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

Of violence, insanity, terrorism.  Can we have a thread that effectively blames the religion when it's not caused by the religion ?

Just because YOU want to find some justification for excusing Islam does not mean Islam is innocent. Islam is the only common thread linking disparate cultures and their vicious misogyny, bigotry and violent punishment of moral and criminal offenders.

[Michael Hardner]

2 minutes ago, Argus said:

... does not mean Islam is innocent. Islam is the only common thread linking disparate cultures and their vicious misogyny, bigotry and violent punishment of moral and criminal offenders.

You frame the problem to implicate Islam.  There are plenty of countries with those problem also.  If it's not religion alone then why point it out in the thread name ?  It seems like a feel-good exercise to me.   People in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks and all that.

[drummindiver]

1 hour ago, WestCoastRunner said:

Of course it happens. Check out the white men in Canada who murder their partners for bringing dishonour to themselves ie. leaving them, taking their children away. Same story. Women end up dead. 

Of course it doesnt happen. And how many white men are killing 3  daughters and a wife with the help of his other legal wifecand son?

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, WestCoastRunner said:

Violence, insanity and terrorism is based on capturing power. 

 

Correction. It's motivated by the lust for power. 

Terrorism is based on getting your own way.  It doesn't matter if it's a united Ireland or an Islamic Caliphate, it's just about hurting people unrelated to your goals for the purpose of achieving them.

Violence and insanity are everywhere, and cannot reasonably be tied to anything.

You have to be specific when it comes to all three.

Edited December 16, 2016 by bcsapper
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction - Blaise Pascal

[DogOnPorch]

1 hour ago, WestCoastRunner said:

As I said, no such thing as honour killing. It's domestic killings. 

 

You brought religion into this one...quit hiding. When was the last...let's say...Christian based honor killing? Yesterday? Last year? Five hundred years ago?

Come-on, Defender of the Faith...defend.

[DogOnPorch]

2 hours ago, WestCoastRunner said:

Of course it happens. Check out the white men in Canada who murder their partners for bringing dishonour to themselves ie. leaving them, taking their children away. Same story. Women end up dead. 

 

Islam is a religion. Not a skin colour.

[eyeball]

5 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

So far I think maybe only Betsy is blaming religion alone.  Eyeball is blaming conservatism alone.

Not alone. I also said religion is bad enough... I just can't help but notice that a conservatie mindset also appears to be the most common denominator and the one that I think is mostly responsible for making religions extreme and toxic. In virtually every case.

This is also evidenced by the near complete absence of progressiveness in such cases which if anything is vilified and often worse.

Edited December 16, 2016 by eyeball

[betsy]

10 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Of violence, insanity, terrorism.  Can we have a thread that effectively blames the religion when it's not caused by the religion ?

 

Violence - general?    Insanity?

 

Are we talking of insanity and generalized violence?  Well of course, if that's your premise - religion isn't the only factor.  We have the whole gamut of all sorts of factors....from drugs, to passion and  greed and vengeance and road rage and frustrations,  etc..,

 

They know who's fit mentally to stand trial, don't they? 

Canada tends to get a psychological assessments of any perpetrators of heinous crimes!  Like that guy who beheaded a man in a Greyhound bus.  It seemed it was due to religion (which it was in a way), but apparently he is insane.  So, there.  We know who the insane are.....

 

You seem to be all over the place.  I thought we're talking about violence due to terrorism.

 

You think a well-coordinated, simultaneous attack in France was done by an insane person?

Btw, a lot of terrorists acts are claimed and owned  by terrorist groups!

 

 

 

Quote

 

11 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

So far I think maybe only Betsy is blaming religion alone.  Eyeball is blaming conservatism alone.

 

I'm blaming religion alone for the simple reason that it's the reason the terrorists give! 

Sure you can analyze every individual who joins a terrorist group - what makes them easily radicalized and all that alleged "progressive" insatiable search for answers that always end up pointing the finger at anyone BUT the terrorist.  One so-called progressive in France even blame the housing!!!  He said Muslims feel alienated because they don't have as big houses as a lot of French people have!   Holy shoot....who's insane?

 

But at the end of the day.....you gotta go by what they claim.

  If they say they're ridding the world of evil.....and they're doing it for Allah.........we better believe it.  How can you not?

Edited December 16, 2016 by betsy

[Michael Hardner]

Quote

But at the end of the day.....you gotta go by what they claim.

Because... they are credible ?  Or.... I am sure the Unabomber had his reasons nailed down - he even wrote a lucid manifesto about it.  Should we listen ?  Isn't that what they want ?

I am confident enough in our system that I believe that people who don't use it to put forward their ideas (eg. technological luddites, religious fanatics calling for adherence to God) should be ignored and punished as criminals for their violence.  It's not a protest, so don't give them a voice.  

[betsy]

46 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Because... they are credible ?  Or.... I am sure the Unabomber had his reasons nailed down - he even wrote a lucid manifesto about it.  Should we listen ?  Isn't that what they want ?

I am confident enough in our system that I believe that people who don't use it to put forward their ideas (eg. technological luddites, religious fanatics calling for adherence to God) should be ignored and punished as criminals for their violence.  It's not a protest, so don't give them a voice.  

Not giving them a voice is one thing.....but ignoring them is another!

You gotta acknowledge the nature of the problem before you can even begin to tackle it!

Edited December 16, 2016 by betsy

[Argus]

11 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

You frame the problem to implicate Islam.  There are plenty of countries with those problem also.  If it's not religion alone then why point it out in the thread name ?  It seems like a feel-good exercise to me.   People in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks and all that.

No, you frame the problem to defend Islam. Are there Christian or other countries which also discriminate against women? Sure, some. But ALL Muslim countries have these laws. And ALL Muslim countries have these cultures. And frankly, I can't think of any other countries which deliberately, by law, discriminate so heavily against women in all aspects of both criminal and family law. What Christian countries bar non-Christians from public office and discriminate against non-Christians, by law and force them to abide by Christian laws and rules? What Christian countries ban non-Christian religious groups from celebrating their religious ceremonies or having a house of worship? What Christian countries incorporate biblical law into their court systems? And why do defenders of Islam have to look back over 20 years to come up with a handful of Christian religious based murders while I can easily find over twelve thousand Islamic based religious attacks in just the first six months of this year? When do you hear about bombs going off in markets to kill dozens of people set by Christians? Yet we hear of these daily from the Muslim world. The Germans just arrested a 12 year old Muslim boy who planted a nail bomb in a Christmas market. When was the last time you saw a Christian kid that fanatical?

[Argus]

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

I am confident enough in our system that I believe that people who don't use it to put forward their ideas (eg. technological luddites, religious fanatics calling for adherence to God) should be ignored and punished as criminals for their violence.  It's not a protest, so don't give them a voice.  

But we DON'T ignore it in terms of other criminal behaviour. The motivation for all crimes is a strong consideration in terms of both charging and sentencing.

[Argus]

This week in Islam, they're starting them younger and younger...

A 12-year-old German-Iraqi boy tried to blow up a Christmas market in the town of Ludwigshafen, prosecutors say.

He left a rucksack with explosives which failed to detonate in November, and put another explosive device by the town hall a few days later, they say.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38343124

[Michael Hardner]

I am not excusing the religion, as per my own question to the group.

[betsy]

Just now, Michael Hardner said:

I am not excusing the religion, as per my own question to the group.

 

You're trying to deflect the blame on religion, in an attempt to protect Muslims?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

I am not excusing the religion, as per my own question to the group.

Excusing, or blaming, a religion is like excusing or blaming a country.  And by that, I mean the mountains, the rivers and the prairies.  You don't.  You just excuse or blame some of the people who live there.

[eyeball]

8 hours ago, betsy said:

Canada tends to get a psychological assessments of any perpetrators of heinous crimes!  Like that guy who beheaded a man in a Greyhound bus.  It seemed it was due to religion (which it was in a way), but apparently he is insane.  So, there.  We know who the insane are.....

Religion had nothing to do with causing this. It was schizophrenia.   Religion doesn't cause schizophrenia, if anything its the other way around.

Vincent Li was ill, not a criminal.

Edited December 16, 2016 by eyeball

[betsy]

29 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Religion had nothing to do with causing this. It was schizophrenia.   Religion doesn't cause schizophrenia, if anything its the other way around.

Vincent Li was ill, not a criminal.

EH?

I didn't say religion caused his schizophrenia.   His delusion was religion-related.  He thought he was the "second coming of Christ."  I said, in a way - it has something to do with religion! 

 

That's what I've said.....he's insane!

Edited December 16, 2016 by betsy