This week in Islam

[Marocc]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

We can read British stats that say only a tiny number of Muslims are employed

How tiny? Compared to what? What for?

1 hour ago, Argus said:

like whether they support a worldwide caliphate

Is that relevant? There is no caliphate.

1 hour ago, Argus said:

whether gays should be in prison.

Why would they be?

[Marocc]

26 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

It's just that some people don't like to hear certain things. 

Not my problem what they like and dislike.

27 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I'm sure some Jews were involved.

Possibly, but the Romans killed him according to the Christians. According to the Bible he was going to his death willingly, in either case. If the Jews had done it, hypothetically, Jesus would have had it all planned beforehand. If I were a Jew with that I don't see anything to be upset about.

28 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

It's interesting when folks think that Jesus and his various apostles were something OTHER than Jewish.

Lack of education.

33 minutes ago, Argus said:

Would you buy a brand of refrigerator if only one out of three had a habit of bursting into flames?

Can you talk with it beforehand to see what kind of personality and character it has?

37 minutes ago, Argus said:

You, on the other hand, are stubbornly insisting that we keep buying that brand

With the story in mind, she is rather insisting you shouldn't abuse people because you suspect — for no particular reason — that they have bought a certain type of a refrigerator. Instead you could kindly inform the buyer — and the officials as well — that there is an obvious fault in the refrigerator and stop going to places that sell illegal stuff.

41 minutes ago, Argus said:

There are plenty of others to choose from.

Is that how you were brought up to decide who should get to live and how? Because you think X people are more convenient for your needs, let the people Y not have basic human rights, or as a matter of fact, let them die?

45 minutes ago, Argus said:

you insist we not even do a rudimentary inquiry to see if there's something fairly obviously flammable

That's a lie.

[Guest]

45 minutes ago, Marocc said:

Not my problem what they like and dislike.

You said you didn't understand.  I explained it to you.

46 minutes ago, Marocc said:

Possibly, but the Romans killed him according to the Christians. According to the Bible he was going to his death willingly, in either case. If the Jews had done it, hypothetically, Jesus would have had it all planned beforehand. If I were a Jew with that I don't see anything to be upset about.

You said the Jews wanted to do it.  I responded to that.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, Marocc said:

Can you talk with it beforehand to see what kind of personality and character it has?

No. Liberals feel this would be 'unCanadian'.

1 hour ago, Marocc said:

With the story in mind, she is rather insisting you shouldn't abuse people because you suspect — for no particular reason — that they have bought a certain type of a refrigerator.

Nope. She insists on bringing that brand of refrigerator into the country in the tens and hundreds of thousands. Because "Not all of them will catch fire!"

1 hour ago, Marocc said:

nstead you could kindly inform the buyer — and the officials as well — that there is an obvious fault in the refrigerator and stop going to places that sell illegal stuff.

In this case the buyer would be Immigration Canada and the places that sell the crappy fridges would be places like Pakistan and Egypt and Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

[Marocc]

4 hours ago, Argus said:

In this case the buyer would be Immigration Canada and the places that sell the crappy fridges would be places like Pakistan and Egypt and Iraq and Afghanistan.

Don't go to the places that sell them in Canada, and report Immigration Canada to the officials nationally and internationally at once. It's your citizen duty.

[dialamah]

14 hours ago, Argus said:

Would you buy a brand of refrigerator if only one out of three had a habit of bursting into flames? Most of them are perfectly fine! Yes, well, that doesn't matter a damn if you can't tell them apart until the flames are running up the walls.

Refrigerators, eh?  Ok, so I suppose what I'd start with is finding out if the "1 out of 3" was true.  I'd find out it wasn't - it was really more like 3 out of a million. I'd also notice that while the brand in question got lots of news coverage in other countries, the tendency to 'burst into flame' in Canada and other western countries was almost non-existent - perhaps the importation standards had something to do with that. Than I'd look to see if Canadian-made or western-made refrigerators were any more or less likely to burst into flame.  And I'd see that while the reasons for the flames might be different, Canadian and western-made refrigerators could also burst into flame.   I might also notice that the foreign-made refrigerators operated a little differently than Canadian or western made ones - but they still kept the food fresh and didn't actually burst into flame nearly as often as claimed.   I'd likely conclude that the risk inherent in refrigerators was about the same, regardless of where they came from.

I might be curious about the idea being spread that certain brands of refrigerators were inherently more dangerous than other brands, even though the evidence was lacking.  I'd discover that the 'danger' of foreign refrigerators was spread and amplified by certain organizations and people who didn't want foreign refrigerators.  I'd find out that they'd exaggerate and even lie about the foreign refrigerators that blew up, and that if one foreign refrigerator blew up, they'd immediately claim that all similar refrigerators were likely to blow up.  If a Canadian or western-made refrigerator blew up, however, they'd claim it was an aberration, or different because "the reason was different", or "expected, because you know - refrigerators blow up sometimes."  

14 hours ago, Argus said:

You, on the other hand, are stubbornly insisting that we keep buying that brand, and not only in large numbers, but you insist we not even do a rudimentary inquiry to see if there's something fairly obviously flammable. What's more, if we complain that brand tends to burst into flames you'll throw yourself indignantly into the fray screaming NOT EVERY SINGLE ONE BURSTS INTO FLAMES!

I suppose if the "no foreign refrigerator" people didn't exaggerate and even lie so much, but instead were reasonable and rational in their objections, it would be a different conversation.

Also, we are talking about people here, not refrigerators.  I don't really care if we bring in more or less people from the countries you love to hate; I do care that they be treated with respect when they arrive.  I care that innocent people - who come to Canada because of it's freedoms and a chance to escape oppressive regimes - aren't tarred with the same brush as extremists and fanatics.  

You, for instance - if you saw my neighbor out and about you'd consider her a 'fanatic'.  You'd not know that she could care less about the stuff you claim Muslims hate, in 'Western society'.  You'd not know that she and her family celebrate Christmas "because we're in Canada now, and that's what Canadians do".  You'd not know that she loves the lack of "rules" here, that she embraces the freedoms Canadians have.   You'd not know that when I showed her the "woman only" swimming times at the pool in case she'd be more comfortable there, she shook her head and said - "I don't care about that", or that when I asked her how strict her husband was (because she wears hijab at his request), she said "Not strict at all - I can shake hands with men, you know, whatever, it's all ok.  He's a really nice guy."  You'd not care that in her history, she's exhibited a strength and conviction to fight against oppression that you could only dream about.

You know why you'd neither know nor care?  Because she wears hijab when she's out, and from that you'd assume she's a "fanatic" with views that are antithetical to western society.  And that, for me, is a huge problem with people like you.  You look at someone and you make assumptions - very negative assumptions - without knowing a single fucking thing about that person except what they look like.  That is wrong.  That is not a "Canadian value".  And that is my objection to you and people like you.

 

[DogOnPorch]

5 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Refrigerators, eh?  Ok, so I suppose what I'd start with is finding out if the "1 out of 3" was true.  I'd find out it wasn't - it was really more like 3 out of a million. I'd also notice that while the brand in question got lots of news coverage in other countries, the tendency to 'burst into flame' in Canada and other western countries was almost non-existent - perhaps the importation standards had something to do with that. 

 

 

What is the acceptable amount of death allowed?

[Marocc]

16 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

What is the acceptable amount of death allowed?

It is unacceptable that you refuse to accept the inevitability of your death and the death of everyone else.

[DogOnPorch]

6 minutes ago, Marocc said:

It is unacceptable that you refuse to accept the inevitability of your death and the death of everyone else.

 

Pithy threats from the Muslim radical really doesn't really help dialamah's case.

[Argus]

41 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Refrigerators, eh?  Ok, so I suppose what I'd start with is finding out if the "1 out of 3" was true.  I'd find out it wasn't - it was really more like 3 out of a million.

PEW research has repeatedly found the majority of Muslims want to live in a Muslim state under Muslim law. Numbers who support death for adultery, blasphemy and apostasy range up to 90% in some Muslim countries, including Pakistan, which is one of our main source countries for immigrants.

You can pull numbers out of your ass if you want, but the actual polling numbers show the truth.

41 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I might be curious about the idea being spread that certain brands of refrigerators were inherently more dangerous than other brands, even though the evidence was lacking.

Evidence lacking? There are two to three dozen Islamic terrorist attacks in an average week, tens of thousands since 9/11. And the 'evidence is lacking' only because you and the other Islamophiles insist that none of these are inspired by Islam no matter what the terrorists say.

41 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Because she wears hijab when she's out, and from that you'd assume she's a "fanatic" with views that are antithetical to western society.  And that, for me, is a huge problem with people like you.

We're realists? We see someone in a Hells Angels jacket we figure he's a biker. We see someone in Muslim religious dress we figure they believe in the doctrine of Islam.

[scribblet]

In the U.K. only 1 in 5 working age Muslims are in full-time employment, compared with 35% of the whole population (gov.uk), they also experience the lowest earnings.  There are numerous reasons such as language skills (or lack thereof) lack of work skills and some say discrimination.

One British reports found that Muslims tend to have more conservative social attitudes than the general population,  Muslim men and one-third of women believe wives should obey their husbands, and 38% of men said it is acceptable for a British Muslim to have more than one wife. A majority said homosexuality should not be legal.   https://www.cnn.com/2016/04/11/europe/britain-muslims-survey/index.html

A Times investigation has found that incarcerated Muslim extremists in British prisons are holding makeshift Sharia courts & even giving out Islamic punishments. Further, prohibited extremist literature are smuggled in & used to radicalize others.
https://t.co/oUPfMRyNfP

Edited December 28, 2019 by scribblet

[Marocc]

On 12/27/2019 at 9:49 PM, dialamah said:

No idea. It makes me pretty sad, though, that they're hated for no reason other than lies and propaganda.

I have never hear of a lie or propaganda Against Jews. What is it like?

On 12/27/2019 at 9:47 PM, DogOnPorch said:

Give examples of all those accusations or you're just another pissed-off Muslim complaining about the vile infidel...yet again.

On 12/28/2019 at 6:08 PM, DogOnPorch said:

Pithy threats from the Muslim radical really doesn't really help dialamah's case.

That fulfills three of my previous observations.

[Marocc]

On 12/28/2019 at 6:53 PM, scribblet said:

There are numerous reasons such as language skills (or lack thereof) lack of work skills and some say discrimination.

Some say, but it could be a lie. After all, what reason do you have to think Muslims could be discriminated against? The rate of employment among Muslims compared to the rest of the population is nothing close to shocking. Many Muslim women don't want to work and many find it difficult to get a job due to their ethnicity & religion. It is more difficult than that for a Muslim to get a job at a professional level and to get good salary.

All in all, it doesn't sound like a tiny amount to me and objectively speaking, it isn't.

On 12/28/2019 at 6:53 PM, scribblet said:

and 38% of men said it is acceptable for a British Muslim to have more than one wife.

I wonder how the exact question read.

On 12/28/2019 at 6:53 PM, scribblet said:

Muslim men and one-third of women believe wives should obey their husbands

Was it a hundred percent of men replied yes?

On 12/28/2019 at 6:53 PM, scribblet said:

are in full-time employment

Excuse me, but you said a tiny amount of Muslims are employed. Is it possible you meant, they have a work contract that says: full-time?

part-time job  ≠  unemployment

On 12/28/2019 at 6:53 PM, scribblet said:

, and 38% of men said it is acceptable for a British Muslim to have more than one wife

Your source says 'that it was acceptable for Muslim men to have more than one wife (31% of Muslims agreed versus 9% of the public);' it doesn't say anything about women's opinion.

On 12/28/2019 at 6:53 PM, scribblet said:

Muslim men and one-third of women believe wives should obey their husbands,

Regarding this the article you linked says:

and that a woman should always obey her husband (39% of Muslims agreed

It says always.

On 12/28/2019 at 6:53 PM, scribblet said:

A majority said homosexuality should not be legal. 

52% is a majority............

The accuracy of the poll was also highly questioned in the article you linked.

[scribblet]

52 minutes ago, Marocc said:

Regarding this the article you linked says:

and that a woman should always obey her husband (39% of Muslims agreed

It says always.

52% is a majority............

The accuracy of the poll was also highly questioned in the article you linked.

That's only your opinion,  check with the BBC

[Marocc]

On 12/28/2019 at 6:24 PM, Argus said:

Evidence lacking? There are two to three dozen Islamic terrorist attacks in an average week, tens of thousands since 9/11.

Is that 'statistical facts from the religionofpeace'? What are you comparing the situation you see — as you see? Was there some time in the past when the world was a beautiful place and the people didn't kill each other?

5 hours ago, scribblet said:

That's only your opinion,  check with the BBC

No, it's literally what the article says. You didn't explain where you got your statistics from since they were significantly different from the article.

It is typical, when you ask a lying islamophobe to explain his/her lies, he/she cannot.

[dialamah]

On 12/28/2019 at 8:24 AM, Argus said:

PEW research has repeatedly found the majority of Muslims want to live in a Muslim state under Muslim law. Numbers who support death for adultery, blasphemy and apostasy range up to 90% in some Muslim countries, Pakistan, which is one of our main source countries for immigrants.

The nuance in those reports means that the claim "90%" of Muslims support death for adultery, blasphemy and apostasy is exaggerated, as we've discussed before.  Misrepresenting a poll to make Muslims look worse than they are is one of the things I object to and consider propaganda and fear-mongering.

Even so, it's a valid point that these kinds of beliefs are pretty common in Muslim majority countries and should be condemned.  I condemn those ideas, just as you do.

The question is - does this mean that Muslims generally pose a particular risk to Canada and Canadians?  I do not think so, for the following reasons:

• Muslims expect their government to carry out these punishments, since murder is forbidden;
• Along with praying 5 times a day and doing good works, Muslims are instructed to obey the laws of the land in which they live;
• Very few Muslims think Sharia or Sharia punishments should apply to non-Muslims;
• Immigrants tend to be more open, social, and less tied to custom and family than non-migrants;

The people we are getting from these countries are self-selecting for being open to new experiences, more accepting of differences, more tolerant, less tied to custom and tradition than the people they leave at home.  And in saying this, I'm not claiming they magically become "progressive" when they cross the Canadian border; I'm saying that even though they are generally more conservative-thinking than Canadians, they aren't actually the extremists you like to portray them as.

On 12/28/2019 at 8:24 AM, Argus said:

Evidence lacking? There are two to three dozen Islamic terrorist attacks in an average week, tens of thousands since 9/11. And the 'evidence is lacking' only because you and the other Islamophiles insist that none of these are inspired by Islam no matter what the terrorists say.

I am speaking specifically of Muslims in Western countries, as I thought you were when you started talking about importing flaming refrigerators.  The vast majority of Islamic terror attacks take place in the Middle East against Muslims and that has been decreasing since 2014, when ISIS began to lose ground.  From "Our World in Data": 

Quote

 

• Over the past decade, terrorists killed an average of 21,000 people worldwide each year.
• The global death toll from terrorism over the past decade ranged from 8,000 in 2010 to a high of 44,000 in 2014.
• In 2017, terrorism was responsible for 0.05% of global deaths.
• Terrorism tends to be very geographically-focused: 95% of deaths in 2017 occurred in the Middle East, Africa or South Asia.
• In most countries terrorism accounts for less than 0.01% of deaths, but in countries of high-conflict, this can be as much as several percent.
• Airline hijackings were once common but are very rare today.
• Public concern about terrorism is high – in many countries more than half say they are concerned about being a victim.
• Media coverage of terrorism is often disproportionate to its frequency and share of deaths.

 

 

On 12/28/2019 at 8:24 AM, Argus said:

We're realists? We see someone in a Hells Angels jacket we figure he's a biker. We see someone in Muslim religious dress we figure they believe in the doctrine of Islam.

Seeing a someone in a Hell's Angel jacket and figuring they are a biker is reasonable and realistic.  Seeing someone in a Hell's Angel jacket and assuming they are a murderer is neither reasonable nor realistic.  Seeing someone in a hijab and assuming they are Muslim would be reasonable and realistic.  Seeing someone in a hijab and assuming they are 1. a victim of a fanatic who wants to kill gays, apostates, stone adulterers and force Sharia law on everyone or 2. a fanatic in their own right, is unrealistic and Islamophobic.  

Edited December 30, 2019 by dialamah

[dialamah]

18 hours ago, Marocc said:

I have never hear of a lie or propaganda Against Jews. What is it like?

The one I'm most familiar with is that they are 'taking over' - monetary systems, the government, the world with a 'secret agenda'.  Part of that agenda is to flood the US/the West with foreigners.  When there was a caravan of SA migrants heading to the States a while ago, some guy decided to kill him some Jews because he believed they were behind this migrant caravan.  

Similar claims are made against Muslims, I've seen it here many times.

Edited December 30, 2019 by dialamah

[scribblet]

12 hours ago, Marocc said:

.....No, it's literally what the article says. You didn't explain where you got your statistics from since they were significantly different from the article.

It is typical, when you ask a lying islamophobe to explain his/her lies, he/she cannot.

Insults are the ammunition of the unintelligent.   I gave a link to the stats in the post it, was gov.uk  

Meanwhile, the 'grooming' epidemic continues, 'grooming' is the U.K. euphemism for rape, 'Asian' is their euphemism for Muslim, generally Paskistani

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grooming-child-sex-abuse-exploitation-rotherham-rochdale-police-a9215261.html?fbclid=IwAR1MS7Xn6LPm2fj3417e289BwT17alFw3Zi4Yu25Fx83bgyf2qhi9dDgo2E

Almost 19,000 children have been sexually groomed in England in the past year, according to official figures that have prompted warnings of an “epidemic”.

Sajid Javid promised a review into the characteristics of grooming gangs in 2018, saying high-profile cases included a “high proportion of men of Pakistani heritage” and that “cultural reasons” could be at play.

[Argus]

13 hours ago, Marocc said:

Is that 'statistical facts from the religionofpeace'? What are you comparing the situation you see — as you see?

I'm comparing it to the thousands of Christian terrorist attacks that haven't happened.

[Marocc]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

The one I'm most familiar with is that they are 'taking over' - monetary systems, the government, the world with a 'secret agenda'.  Part of that agenda is to flood the US/the West with foreigners.  When there was a caravan of SA migrants heading to the States a while ago, some guy decided to kill him some Jews because he believed they were behind this migrant caravan.  

Similar claims are made against Muslims, I've seen it here many times.

That is to do with Israel, not Jews. (not commenting on the accuracy of the claim)

Certainly it is true Israeli intelligence is working hard around the world for something and it concerns many people, Jews or no Jews. This is little talked about in the main stream western media. Partly, might be, because they're Jews.

[Argus]

1 minute ago, Marocc said:

Certainly it is true Israeli intelligence is working hard around the world for something

To keep Muslims from killing them, perhaps?

[Goddess]

On 12/26/2019 at 3:18 PM, dialamah said:

In some ME country, ISIS extremists threw gay people off a roof.   I don't know if this happened once or twice, but it was in the very specific context of ISIS behavior.  Never mind that even in countries where there is a state imposed death penalty, gays are actually rarely killed, or that if a private citizen kills a gay person its still murder.  

True: people were thrown from a roof as an Islamic-inspired punishment for being gay.  Propaganda (repeated here pretty regularly) - Muslims want to, and will, kill gay people at will by throwing them from a roof.

This is absolutely 100% lying apologist.  You really believe that gays in Muslim majority countries are ignored, tolerated and left alone?

Please educate yourself on the plight of gay people in Islam.  They are abused, threatened and tortured by their family and friends.  They are jailed and lashed unmercifully.  They are killed by their families.  Gay-bashing has become a pastime for Muslims living in some European countries.  For instance - in Amsterdam, once a mecca of tolerance - Muslims are attacking gay people daily.  Alarming and disturbing to most people, dismissed nonchalantly as  "propaganda" by you.

Executing gays has been a part of Islam for centuries and will continue to be for as long as "normal" Muslims want it to be.

https://76crimes.com/10-nations-where-the-penalty-for-gay-sex-is-death/

https://www.businessinsider.com/irans-top-diplomat-javad-zarif-defends-execution-of-gay-people-2019-6

 

To say that executing gays is an ISIS thing is 100% lie.

Quote

Muslims want to, and will, kill gay people at will by throwing them from a roof.

Or by shooting them up in a nightclub.  You seem to be stuck on the "throw them off a roof thing" - like if they aren't thrown off a roof, it doesn't count as an execution.

I'm always amazed at how willing you are to throw actual human rights abuses under the bus (or off a roof!  ) in favour of defending Islamic fundamentalism.

 

[Argus]

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

The nuance in those reports means that the claim "90%" of Muslims support death for adultery, blasphemy and apostasy is exaggerated, as we've discussed before.  Misrepresenting a poll to make Muslims look worse than they are is one of the things I object to and consider propaganda and fear-mongering.

Even so, it's a valid point that these kinds of beliefs are pretty common in Muslim majority countries and should be condemned. 

And MY point is that they are indeed common in Muslim countries and so we shouldn't be bringing people from those countries to Canada without interviewing them first to determine what their views are.

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

The question is - does this mean that Muslims generally pose a particular risk to Canada and Canadians? 

No, the question is does it make Canada a better place to bring over a million white supremacists, to use your vernacular. You'd say definitely not. Even if these people commit no violence we don't need more people with such views here. My view is the same, but also with regard to Muslims with those beliefs.

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

The people we are getting from these countries are self-selecting for being open to new experiences, more accepting of differences, more tolerant, less tied to custom and tradition than the people they leave at home. 

Are they really? First, about half are here as phony refugees. They only thing they're more open to is living in a rich country with all the benefits. Second, those who emigrate are coming here largely because this is a rich country where they and their children will have a better life. That does not suggest they do not believe in Islam or the tenets and values of Islam. Or that they will change their beliefs, as my neighbour's family demonstrates. I'm quite sure some of them are relieved at being in a more open, tolerent, secular country. Those are the ones we should welcome. The rest we should never have accepted in the first place.

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

And in saying this, I'm not claiming they magically become "progressive" when they cross the Canadian border; I'm saying that even though they are generally more conservative-thinking than Canadians, they aren't actually the extremists you like to portray them as.

And the more of them we have the more likely we'll have some that go up in flames.

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

Seeing a someone in a Hell's Angel jacket and figuring they are a biker is reasonable and realistic.  Seeing someone in a Hell's Angel jacket and assuming they are a murderer is neither reasonable nor realistic. 

But I don't care if they're a murderer. I know enough about how they act to know I don't want them around me.

And presuming an observant, devoted Muslim does not accept some of the major tenets of their religion, tenets accepted by Muslims worldwide, is simply wishful thinking on your part.

 

[Marocc]

29 minutes ago, Argus said:

I'm comparing it to the thousands of Christian terrorist attacks that haven't happened.

(Why?)

Here's the problem,

What counts as Islamic terrorism in your statistics — most likely, you didn't verify your source — is what, if done by Christians, would not count as Christian terrorism to you.

You call basically any act of violence by a Muslim Islamic terrorism, do you not?

If basically any act of violence by a Muslim is Islamic terrorism, abiding by the same logic, basically any act of violence by a Christian, is Christian terrorism.

I know and you know we can find tens of thousands of those, and much more of course.

 

[Marocc]

20 minutes ago, Argus said:

we shouldn't be bringing people from those countries to Canada without interviewing them first to determine what their views are.

"cold blooded terrorists are infiltrating Canada — let's ask them about their views before letting them stay to ensure we're safe from cold blooded lying terrorists."

You should be in the government.