This week in Islam

[Marocc]

37 minutes ago, Argus said:

To keep Muslims from killing them, perhaps?

No. It's much more than that. They have the mula, you know.

[Marocc]

33 minutes ago, Goddess said:

To say that executing gays is an ISIS thing is 100% lie.

ISIS would be insulted by that.

There is no punishment in Islam for being gay.

[Goddess]

21 minutes ago, Marocc said:

 

There is no punishment in Islam for being gay.

Another liar for Islam.

Quote

 

What Does Islam Say?

Islamic scholars overwhelmingly teach that same-gender sex is a sin.

Men having sex with each other should be punished, the Koran says, but it doesn't say how - and it adds that they should be left alone if they repent.

The death penalty instead comes from the Hadith, or accounts of the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad. The accounts differ on the method of killing, and some accounts give lesser penalties in some circumstances.

A small number of Islamic scholars, mainly in the West, have started re-examining Islamic teaching on same-gender sex and have concluded that the blanket condemnation is a misinterpretation. However, this review is only just beginning and is not widely accepted.

 

Across the Arab world, gays have been arrested and sentenced to prison on charges linked to "debauchery" - and faced flogging or even the death penalty in Iran and Saudi Arabia. During their rule in Afghanistan in the 1990s, the Taliban had their own method: The victim would be placed in a pit and a large stone wall toppled on top of him

In Egypt, there have been police raids of suspected gay gatherings and people have been put on trial using a vague legal text that equates homosexuality with prostitutes and tries gays for "violating public morality."

And it's not just ISIS. In Syria, al-Qaida's local branch as well as other Islamic insurgent groups battling ISIS, have also killed gays and some homosexuals have had to flee the country for their own safety.

Rameen, a 30-year-old gay man from Afghanistan, said he keeps his sexuality secret from family and friends.

"In Afghanistan, most gay people reject their own identity. They struggle and try to act straight," said Rameen, who gave only his first name for fear of persecution. "I know people who have committed suicide because they could not cope with the reality of their sexuality."

 

 

Edited December 30, 2019 by Goddess

[dialamah]

58 minutes ago, Goddess said:

You really believe that gays in Muslim majority countries are ignored, tolerated and left alone?

I didn't say that.   Can't you read?

58 minutes ago, Goddess said:

They are abused, threatened and tortured by their family and friends.  They are jailed and lashed unmercifully.  They are killed by their families. 

True.  They are also ignored, tolerated and even hidden by family and friends.  Perhaps you need to educate yourself on both sides of the issue, instead of just one.

Quote

Gay-bashing has become a pastime for Muslims living in some European countries.  For instance - in Amsterdam, once a mecca of tolerance - Muslims are attacking gay people daily.  Alarming and disturbing to most people, dismissed nonchalantly as  "propaganda" by you.

I look at the source of these stories, namely you, and guess that at the least its overstated, probably exaggerated or possibly an outright lie.  But I did a quick search anyway, just to see what I might have been missing -  and found a story about two couples being attacked during Pride in August of 2019.  Neither of the attackers were identified as Muslim.  I couldn't find much else, other than some discussion about a rise of anti-immigrant, anti-gay, nationalistic and populist sentiment.  Of course, I skipped the actual propaganda websites, relying instead sources that present facts with minimal 'emotional' bias; no doubt that was my "mistake", as far as you are concerned.

Does this mean I also think that Muslims never beat up on gays, even in Western countries?  Nope, not at all.  But if one news stories involving two couples becomes "Muslims are attacking gay people daily" that's propaganda.   

Yes, I've already noted that capital punishment or being jailed for being gay is most common in Muslim-majority countries.   This is why I have the idea that Muslims think the government should be punishing gays, not citizens.  Why are you endlessly repeating stuff I've already acknowledged?   It's not like I disagree with you.

58 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Or by shooting them up in a nightclub.  You seem to be stuck on the "throw them off a roof thing" - like if they aren't thrown off a roof, it doesn't count as an execution.

You blame Islam for some guy shooting up a gay nightclub.  Maybe that's legit; on the other hand, maybe it's not.  To my mind, he's not any different than a non-Muslim guy shooting up a movie theatre, or shooting into an LA concert from a hotel room.   Or any number of non-Muslim teenage boys shooting up a school.  None of those killers say anything about the millions of Muslims or non-Muslims who don't kill anyone, regardless of their personal feelings.   The vast majority of people, regardless of religion or race or ethnicity or country of origin to not murder, rape, torture or kill anyone.   If you are so worried about the "personal safety" of people, you're better off addressing the social issues that lead to this murder, rape and torture, rather than focusing whether or not it was a Muslim committing the crime.

58 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I'm always amazed at how willing you are to throw actual human rights abuses under the bus (or off a roof!  ) in favour of defending Islamic fundamentalism.

I've called such behavior "murder" and note that it's illegal in the lands where it's been done.  I support these weird things like "laws" to address terrorism, rape, murder, etc., along with not "innocent till proven guilty" value, even when it's a Muslim person.   I completely fail to assume a women in a hijab is either a victim or a fanatic, or that a man from Pakistan is itching to kill himself some gays/beat up women.   

You are the one who gets all excited about denying people the right to wear certain clothing and about judging Muslims as guilty before they've even done anything - that they are Muslim is enough for you to assume guilt or at least guilty intent - that's what I'd call "throwing actual human rights under the bus".  

Calling people out on their Islamophobia isn't the same as 'defending' Islamic fundamentalism.  But I understand you have to pretend I'm defending Islam, otherwise you might have to face your own ugly and demeaning attitudes towards Muslims.

Edited December 30, 2019 by dialamah

[Goddess]

6 minutes ago, dialamah said:

True.  They are also ignored, tolerated and even hidden by family and friends.  Perhaps you need to educate yourself on both sides of the issue, instead of just one.

No one said they weren't. The situation you speak of is RARE in Islam.  Perhaps you need to educate yourself on both sides of the issue, instead of just one.

The fact that RARE Muslim families protect and accept their gay family members does not mean that acceptance of homosexuality is part of Islam.  It is clearly NOT.  And yet you continue to argue that gays in Islam are treated no differently than gays in Western countries.  You are pathetic.

[dialamah]

26 minutes ago, Marocc said:

There is no punishment in Islam for being gay.

There might not be punishment spelled out in Quran, or whatever, but it is very true that too many Islamic countries punish gay people. 

10 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Another liar for Islam.

Not a lie; the Quran does not address homosexuality at all.  States that have punishments for homosexuality use certain Hadiths.  Perhaps Marocc rejects the Hadiths that detail punishment for Quran - who knows?  

Oh wait - you know, right?  All Muslims hate homosexuals and will kill them if given a chance.  I forgot you are an "expert" (snicker) on Islam, so you know what they all think, believe and how they will all behave.

[Goddess]

16 minutes ago, dialamah said:

You are the one who gets all excited about denying people the right to wear certain clothing

Please stop repeating this lie. I'm asking this for the last time, as you continue to persist in it.

I've said over and over that I am not sure that I could support a hijab ban because that CAN be cultural.  The burka - yes - I think it should be banned.

That you think this opinion makes me a worse person than the Islamic fundamentalists and their barbaric beliefs that you defend - tells me your values are just as warped as Islam's.

 

Edited December 30, 2019 by Goddess

[Goddess]

5 minutes ago, dialamah said:

All Muslims hate homosexuals and will kill them if given a chance.

If you say so.  But you're the only one here saying that.

Edited December 30, 2019 by Goddess

[dialamah]

4 minutes ago, Goddess said:

No one said they weren't. The situation you speak of is RARE in Islam.  Perhaps you need to educate yourself on both sides of the issue, instead of just one.

The fact that RARE Muslim families protect and accept their gay family members does not mean that acceptance of homosexuality is part of Islam.  It is clearly NOT. 

It's not that I'm pathetic; it's that you cannot stop yourself from painting all Muslims with the same brush - if one murders a schoolgirl, well they'll all murder schoolgirls because "Islam".  If one exposes himself in a swimming pool, well they'll all expose themselves because "Islam".  If extremists throw a gay person of a rooftop, then Muslims want to kill gays.

Do you know that Middle Eastern and African men often hold hands?  And that African men will engage in gay relations, but consider themselves heterosexual?  Or that disapproval of homosexuality and punishment for it actually became entrenched in the Middle East while they were occupied by the British?   That the Ottoman empire declared gay sex legal in 1858, but that was changed as a result of Christianity's influence?   Did you know that Mohammed invited "third gender" people into his home, or that there are many stories of love stories between both men and women in Arab/Muslim culture, dating from the 10th century?

The issue of homosexuality in Islamic countries is a lot more interesting and nuanced than "Muslims must kill gays because Islam demands it".  

Quote

And yet you continue to argue that gays in Islam are treated no differently than gays in Western countries.  You are pathetic.

You really can't read, can you.  Why, just in my very last post I quoted you saying:  "They are abused, threatened and tortured by their family and friends.  They are jailed and lashed unmercifully.  They are killed by their families. "  And I responded with "True".  From that, you get that I think gays in these Islamic countries are treated no differently than gays in Western countries.   Amazing!  Do you lie this much to your friends and family, or is it just us on this board that are treated to your alternate version of reality?

[dialamah]

13 minutes ago, Goddess said:

The burka - yes - I think it should be banned.

Not a lie, then eh?  You do support limiting of what people can wear.

[Goddess]

11 minutes ago, dialamah said:

it's that you cannot stop yourself from painting all Muslims with the same brush - if one murders a schoolgirl, well they'll all murder schoolgirls because "Islam".  If one exposes himself in a swimming pool, well they'll all expose themselves because "Islam".  If extremists throw a gay person of a rooftop, then Muslims want to kill gays.

Your words.  These words have never been mine.  Not even once.

 

10 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Not a lie, then eh?  You do support limiting of what people can wear.

Tell me why you think burkas are great.  Tell me they are harmless to women.  Tell me they are harmless to society.  Tell me why you support the wearing of them.  Tell me why you support a clear Islamic fundamentalist garment that denigrates women.

At least I take a stand on badness. 

[Goddess]

20 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Do you know that Middle Eastern and African men often hold hands?  And that African men will engage in gay relations, but consider themselves heterosexual?  Or that disapproval of homosexuality and punishment for it actually became entrenched in the Middle East while they were occupied by the British?   That the Ottoman empire declared gay sex legal in 1858, but that was changed as a result of Christianity's influence?   Did you know that Mohammed invited "third gender" people into his home, or that there are many stories of love stories between both men and women in Arab/Muslim culture, dating from the 10th century?

Yes, I do know all that.  I have friends in the military who served in Afghanistan and have PTSD because of they had to stand back and say nothing in the face of little boys being repeatedly raped. 

I also know none of that is relevant to Islamic countries TODAY, which is what we are talking about.

Why admit that homophobia is a problem in Islam and then deny it's effects on the religion's followers?

[Marocc]

3 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Tell me why you think burkas are great.  Tell me they are harmless to women.  Tell me they are harmless to society.  Tell me why you support the wearing of them.  Tell me why you support a clear Islamic fundamentalist garment that denigrates women.

What is it like not caring what comes out of your mouth?

[Marocc]

2 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I have friends

Your friends were taken as prisoners in Afganistan? How were they freed?

[Goddess]

1 minute ago, Marocc said:

Your friends were taken as prisoners in Afganistan? How were they freed?

I can't decide if you're just really, really stupid or just pretending to be.

[Marocc]

43 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Please stop repeating this lie.

You know what's great about Islam?

Lying is not acceptable to anyone in these circumstances. The law in Canada can't stop anyone though.

[Marocc]

1 minute ago, Goddess said:

I can't decide if you're just really, really stupid or just pretending to be.

You don't have to. Just answer the question. You have really fascinating friends. It's amazing you don't learn anything from them.

[Goddess]

1 minute ago, Marocc said:

Just answer the question. 

Again - who do you think you are that you can order me around?

Your question was answered in what I wrote, making your question truly ignorant.

[dialamah]

22 minutes ago, Goddess said:

No one said they weren't. The situation you speak of is RARE in Islam.  Perhaps you need to educate yourself on both sides of the issue, instead of just one.

The fact that RARE Muslim families protect and accept their gay family members does not mean that acceptance of homosexuality is part of Islam.  It is clearly NOT.  

How rare is it, Goddess?  It's generally thought that approximately 1.6% of the population identifies as homosexual, and that holds true across all human societies.  What percentage of the population of these Islamic countries is in jail for homosexuality?  Let's take Egypt as an example; it has a population of about 97 million people.  If we cautiously estimate that 1% of that population is gay, there should be close to 970,000 gay people in Egypt.  Let's suppose that 50% of those gay people have family and friends that know - that's 485,000 people who will probably be turned in to the authorities, beaten or killed.  How many people are in jail for homosexuality in Egypt?   That's hard to figure out, but the total population of Egyptian jails is around 106,000.  So even if all of them were jailed for homosexuality, there's still 379,000 people available for beating/killing in Egypt.  Even if you cut it down to 25% of people being brave enough to come out to family/friends, that's still 160,000 people at risk at any given time in Egypt.  

Now, I can't determine from the information I can access whether or not 379,000 or 160,000 people were murdered or beaten for being gay; I have no doubt some where, and probably significantly more than would be in a Western country.  But I think the protection/tolerance of gay people is a lot less rare than you assume.   You only assume it's rare because you only hear about and pay attention to news stories about gays who do suffer mistreatment, whether by the State or by family/friends.  

Oh, and here's a story about a Christian girl who was killed by her family because she brought shame for dating a Muslim boy.  I know you'll think that's rare too - "That's not part of Christianity".  Unfortunately, honor killings in the region are cultural more than religious.  I expect that the same would be true of mistreatment of homosexuals, although I'm not going to go research it.  Disabusing you of your ignorance isn't really my job, after all.  Besides, if you really cared about women, misogyny and homophobia among people from this region, you'd already know this stuff and you wouldn't be here doing everything you can to prove to us all how evil and bad Muslims are.

Just think I'd like to mention that Islam is a religion that supports misogyny through the Quran, and homophobia through it's Hadiths; Christianity is no different.   In the Middle East and in North Africa, religion holds a lot more power over people - especially uneducated and poor people - and it doesn't really matter what the religion is.  It is education, wealth and time that will eliminate these things.  

[dialamah]

45 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Your words.  These words have never been mine.  Not even once.

They are your words - in all of those news stories, your reaction is "This is what Islam teaches them to do.   We don't want these kinds of people in Canada."  No benefit of the doubt, no acknowledgement that maybe there's more to it than just "Islam", or that maybe even in some cases, they might not be Muslim at all, but a rare Christian from the same region. 

Remember that family that was featured on a news story?   Girl is going to school, has plans for an education that will provide a good living.  Dad is looking for work, but hasn't found any yet.  Your assumptions:

• Girl will be married when still a teenager, and won't be allowed to finish education;
• Dad's not interested in working, just wants to take advantage of Canadian generosity;
• Dad is controlling the women (presumably violently);
• Dad is teaching sons to control women, and to take advantage of Canadian system.

You made all those assumptions based only on the fact that they were Muslim, and that the females were wearing hijab.  And when I objected to those assumptions, you told me I was wrong, that I was an "apologist" for a  misogynistic religion, that my family was so extremely unusual in having their female family members well-educated, because Muslims just don't think women were important beyond baby-making and being oppressed.  Instead of supporting a girl with dreams, you put her and her family down only because they are Muslim.

Don't flatter yourself that you are the least bit open-minded when it comes to Muslims.  

Edited December 30, 2019 by dialamah

[Goddess]

18 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I can't determine from the information I can access whether or not 379,000 or 160,000 people were murdered or beaten for being gay;

You know why you can't determine it?  (Although it didn't stop you from throwing numbers around to "prove" that homosexuality is NOT a problem in Islamic countries and that gays are loved and treated well by their families and communities except in "rare" cases.  Does anyone here actually believe what you vomit out - that Islam cares for and loves gay people?)

Because they don't keep records of it (not prior to about 1990). 

Because other laws are used to punish homosexuality - such as "debauchery" or "contributing to delinquency of society".  (Egypt does this.)

Because the majority of gay people in Muslim countries do not "come out of the closet" for fear of imprisonment or death.

Meanwhile, while you defend Islam, plenty of gay Muslims are in jail or dead.  Almost all of them are in hiding or pretending to not be gay.  Lots of gay people in western and European countries are being attacked by Muslims - the very people you claim are tolerant and loving of gays.  You don't give a rat's a$$ about gay people - only interested in protecting their oppressors from criticism.  Same as burkas - you have zero interest in women's rights and 100% interest in ensuring Islam's stone-age beliefs are respected and accepted by the rest of the planet.

Edited December 30, 2019 by Goddess

[dialamah]

48 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Tell me why you think burkas are great.  Tell me they are harmless to women.  Tell me they are harmless to society.  Tell me why you support the wearing of them.  Tell me why you support a clear Islamic fundamentalist garment that denigrates women.

My "support" for burkas stops at "We don't have the right to dictate to women what they can wear; even if we did, it is not the least bit helpful to women who really are being abused and forced to wear it."   

I have stated clearly and multiple times that I personally don't like the burka.  

[Goddess]

15 minutes ago, dialamah said:

They are your words - in all of those news stories, your reaction is "This is what Islam teaches them to do.   We don't want these kinds of people in Canada."  No benefit of the doubt, no acknowledgement that maybe there's more to it than just "Islam", or that maybe even in some cases, they might not be Muslim at all, but a rare Christian from the same region. 

Remember that family that was featured on a news story?   Girl is going to school, has plans for an education that will provide a good living.  Dad is looking for work, but hasn't found any yet.  Your assumptions:

• Girl will be married when still a teenager, and won't be allowed to finish education;
• Dad's not interested in working, just wants to take advantage of Canadian generosity;
• Dad is controlling the women (presumably violently);
• Dad is teaching sons to control women, and to take advantage of Canadian system.

You made all those assumptions based only on the fact that they were Muslim, and that the females were wearing hijab.  And when I objected to those assumptions, you told me I was wrong, that I was an "apologist" for a  misogynistic religion, that my family was so extremely unusual in having their female family members well-educated, because Muslims just don't think women were important beyond baby-making and being oppressed.  Instead of supporting a girl with dreams, you put her and her family down only because they are Muslim.

Don't flatter yourself that you are the least bit open-minded when it comes to Muslims.  

No, I don't remember saying any of that.  Especially this, which you put in quotes as if I did say it:

"We don't want these kinds of people in Canada." 

Provide where I said these words or admit you are a liar who rewrites what everyone says.

[Goddess]

Quote

But you 100% support a religion that promotes it.

And why is it bad for me to say I don't like the burka and I don't agree with them but okay for you to say it?

Edited December 30, 2019 by Goddess

[Marocc]

32 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Again - who do you think you are that you can order me around?

Are you that insecure or is it just part of the role?

34 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Your question was answered in what I wrote

No. It wasn't. Any professor of the English language would agree.