This week in Islam

[Marocc]

1 hour ago, Goddess said:

Conversely, if it's written by Islamics, it's Islamic, as well as influenced mostly by Islam, etc.  We all have our perspectives.

Even though you have been sort of weasel-wording around about the "death to apostates" thing, it's clear that you DO agree with it.

From your interpretation of Islam - WHO is authorized to perform the killings?  If it comes from a fatwa - as in cases like Hirsi Ali, Salman Rushdie, Theo Van Gogh, etc - it appears that any Muslim who wants to can perform the killing in any country, and with no regard to the country's own laws.

Would this be correct?

 

The "correct" perspective is the one that "owns it". Meaning if a thing x belongs to the USA such as their elections, then it is their thing and their perspective is the main one and we usually believe also the most correct one. Same applies to everything. So about Islam the Islamic perspective is the only correct one, whether you like it or not. Now if you have political self centered interests for your country that's another issue, but that doesn't make the other party's perspective "less correct" just because it doesn't suit your interests.

What exactly do you think I agree with?

Only the government can execute such punishments. War captives are an exception - irrelevant to this time. So it is completely incorrect.

 

[Goddess]

3 minutes ago, Marocc said:

Only the government can execute such punishments.

This is not the case.  Those under death fatwas are not just needing to protect them from the government - they are protecting themselves from the average Muslim who believes it's their duty to kill the aposate.

Also, which "government" is authorized to perform the executions? 

[DogOnPorch]

9 minutes ago, Goddess said:

This is not the case.  Those under death fatwas are not just needing to protect them from the government - they are protecting themselves from the average Muslim who believes it's their duty to kill the aposate.

Also, which "government" is authorized to perform the executions? 

 

PJW and similar vid bloggers need 24/7 bodyguards to keep their critics from killing them...can't imagine an apostate's life is any better. 

I follow this fellow...well worth watching.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzREuchzOqiawpEpvEM0Tyg

 

[Marocc]

55 minutes ago, Goddess said:

This is not the case.  Those under death fatwas are not just needing to protect them from the government - they are protecting themselves from the average Muslim who believes it's their duty to kill the aposate.

Also, which "government" is authorized to perform the executions? 

There is always murder.. They can't even be executed for apostasy in countries that aren't governed by Sharia.

I'm not sure. I imagine they can come to an agreement if another Islamic state captures the apostate. But then the fatwa must be accepted by the state that captured the apostate. The fatwa on Rushdie, for instance, wasn't accepted by Sunni Muslims.

It's not "government" but the actual government these days.

[Marocc]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

You seem to simultaneously declare your perspective as the correct one, yet call on others to provide their definition so you can pick it apart

There can be no picking apart of a definition when obviously no one has provided one. Actually I never expected a definition. That's my point. If you can't define a word, don't use it and say those people called x are terrorists/do this and that evil thing etc.

[Goddess]

5 minutes ago, Marocc said:

They can't even be executed for apostasy in countries that aren't governed by Sharia.

This is not the case.  If it were, then apostates of Islam, women, Jews, and gay people would be safe in countries that are not governed by Sharia law.  But they are not safe.

 

[Marocc]

19 minutes ago, Goddess said:

This is not the case.  If it were, then apostates of Islam, women, Jews, and gay people would be safe in countries that are not governed by Sharia law.  But they are not safe.

 

Some of them are safe.

What you're referring to is murder - not a punishment by Sharia.

 

[Goddess]

5 minutes ago, Marocc said:

Some of them are safe.

LOL  Do they know they're safe?  Why does Hirsi Ali have bodyguards?  According to you, she should be safe in the Netherlands or the US, yes?

A lot of them are not safe. Those are the ones we're talking about.  The question of course, which you seem to be avoiding, is: Why are they not safe in countries not governed by Sharia?

 

Quote

What you're referring to is murder - not a punishment by Sharia.

Yes, I agree killing apostates is murder.  You are the one who claimed it's a punishment of Sharia and that some vague "government" entity has the authority to perform the killings. Which I have pointed out to you is false.

[Marocc]

3 minutes ago, Goddess said:

LOL  Do they know they're safe?  Why does Hirsi Ali have bodyguards?  According to you, she should be safe in the Netherlands or the US, yes?

A lot of them are not safe. Those are the ones we're talking about.  The question of course, which you seem to be avoiding, is: Why are they not safe in countries not governed by Sharia?

 

Yes, I agree killing apostates is murder.  You are the one who claimed it's a punishment of Sharia and that some vague "government" entity has the authority to perform the killings. Which I have pointed out to you is false.

Now you're definitely not even trying anymore.

Should anybody know they're safe? Unrealistic, isn't it?

Hirsi Ali wanted to live like this. It's her choice, her problem.

I've never said person x should be safe in places x and x.

No, we were talking about apostasy. You were actually. If you want to change the topic you can do so with good manners and without lying.

The Islamic countries have very real governments. I don't know why that bothers you so much.

Lies lies lies - from beginning till the end.

 

[DogOnPorch]

17 minutes ago, Goddess said:

LOL  Do they know they're safe?  Why does Hirsi Ali have bodyguards?  According to you, she should be safe in the Netherlands or the US, yes?

A lot of them are not safe. Those are the ones we're talking about.  The question of course, which you seem to be avoiding, is: Why are they not safe in countries not governed by Sharia?

 

Yes, I agree killing apostates is murder.  You are the one who claimed it's a punishment of Sharia and that some vague "government" entity has the authority to perform the killings. Which I have pointed out to you is false.

How timely...from today.

[dialamah]

1 hour ago, Goddess said:

1.  This is not the case. 

2.  Those under death fatwas are not just needing to protect them from the government -

3.  they are protecting themselves from the average Muslim who believes it's their duty to kill the aposate.

1.  Kinda sounds like you expect him to explain criminal behavior.  If he thinks goverment is the only authority that can decree death, then it's possible that you and he agree that random Muslims killing people because of fatwas are wrong. 

3.  It seems unlikely to me that the "average Muslim" believes he needs to go kill apostates.  He may feel they deserve death, either via Allah or the government, but that's different than thinking he must do it.  Pew research tells us that the death penalty for apostates is supported by people who also believe Sharia should apply to everyone.  Even so, not every Muslim who believes Sharia should apply to all also believes in the death penalty for apostacy.  

"Compared with attitudes toward applying sharia in the domestic or criminal spheres, Muslims in the countries surveyed are significantly less supportive of the death penalty for converts.  Nevertheless, in six of the 20 countries where there are adequate samples for analysis, at least half of those who favor making Islamic law the official law also support executing apostates.

Taking the life of those who abandon Islam is most widely supported in Egypt (86%) and Jordan (82%). Roughly two-thirds who want sharia to be the law of the land also back this penalty in the Palestinian territories (66%). In the other countries surveyed in the Middle East-North Africa region, fewer than half take this view."

Take note that the question was only asked of those Muslims who support Sharia as the law of the land, which varies from a low of 19% (Kazakhstan) to a high of 74% (Egypt).  

Overall, it appears that "the average Muslim" does not support the death penalty for apostasy.  

2.  Governments do set their own laws.  People within and outside the country may or may not agree with those laws.  Other nations may or may not agree with those laws.  

None of this should be misconstrued to suggest I agree with the death penalty, because I don't.  Killing someone because they left a religion is unacceptable, whether an individual, a mob or a government. 

I am merely pointing out that there is no reason to think "the average Muslim" is going to take it upon him or herself to kill an apostate.

[Michael Hardner]

24 minutes ago, Marocc said:

 

I've never said person x should be safe in places x and x.

 

If you were Christian, you would be effectively saying Muslims shouldn't be safe everywhere.  But you aren't, so you're not.

You are validating the reason this thread exists with your illiberal garbage.  If you don't believe in live and let live, you are extremist in my eyes.

[Marocc]

21 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

If you were Christian, you would be effectively saying Muslims shouldn't be safe everywhere.  But you aren't, so you're not.

You are validating the reason this thread exists with your illiberal garbage.  If you don't believe in live and let live, you are extremist in my eyes.

Doesn't matter, does it?

[Goddess]

1 hour ago, Marocc said:

Should anybody know they're safe? Unrealistic, isn't it?

General safety is not what's being discussed, and you know it. We're talking about why ex-Muslims - apostates in your judgement - are not safe outside of Muslim-controlled countries. 

 

Quote

Hirsi Ali wanted to live like this. It's her choice, her problem.

Yes, I've heard this same argument presented to explain why hijabs and burkas are a "choice".  I'm an apostate from my own religion and while they do not prescribe literal death for me (I'm actually 100% confident they will not literally kill me, unlike Muslim apostates, so I don't hire bodyguards), they do shun you like you're dead.  They tell people that that is my "choice" as well.

Quote

I've never said person x should be safe in places x and x.

So you're saying they're not safe anywhere, or........???

Quote

The Islamic countries have very real governments. I don't know why that bothers you so much.

I dont' know where you got that I am against Islamic countries having government.  Our difference, I would suggest, is what kind of government is best and I of course feel a secular government is best for humans, not one based on stone-age religious thinking.

Quote

Lies lies lies - from beginning till the end.

It appears to me that you are doing a fair amount of lying here yourself.  Definitely deflecting and obfuscating. I can see why this religion needs so many Western apologists. 

Edited July 12, 2019 by Goddess

[Goddess]

51 minutes ago, dialamah said:

He may feel they deserve death, either via Allah or the government, but that's different than thinking he must do it.

If you were following the thread, I pointed out that the Islamic Supreme Council states:  

Quote

However, a fatwā is not binding as is the verdict of the secular courts; while correct and applicable to all members of the Muslim faith, the fatwā is optional for the individual to respect or not.

....which would give individual Muslims the choice of whether they want to kill the apostate or not.

Quote

It seems unlikely to me that the "average Muslim" believes he needs to go kill apostates. 

Let's let this Muslim speak for himself.

Edited July 12, 2019 by Goddess

[GostHacked]

20 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

To say that there is 'no such thing as  Wahhabism' with a straight face should tell you all something.

To deny this is to deny the existence of the House of Saud and Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab who created the first Saudi Muslim state... the Emirate of Diriyah.

Saudi Arabia is a fact, folks.

 

I wonder if trolls can recognize trolls.

[jacee]

On 7/10/2019 at 3:25 PM, Argus said:

 

Islam is a systemically bigoted religion, which can be proven by looking at how the 50 Muslim states operate. As I've said before, none treat women equally, and none treat unbelievers equally to Muslims. You'd think at least one or two would! I mean, there's 50 of them! But nope.

And you want us to respect that?

 

Christianity is a systemically bigoted religion, which can be proven by looking at how the  Christian states operate. As I've said before, none treat women equally, and none treat unbelievers equally to Christians. You'd think at least one or two would! I mean, there's lots of them! But nope.

And you want us to respect that?

[DogOnPorch]

How many angels...

It's in the Quran, folks.

--------------------------------------

They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah . But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper.

You will find others who wish to obtain security from you and [to] obtain security from their people. Every time they are returned to [the influence of] disbelief, they fall back into it. So if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you overtake them. And those - We have made for you against them a clear authorization.

You will find others who wish to obtain security from you and [to] obtain security from their people. Every time they are returned to [the influence of] disbelief, they fall back into it. So if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you overtake them. And those - We have made for you against them a clear authorization.

And never is it for a believer to kill a believer except by mistake. And whoever kills a believer by mistake - then the freeing of a believing slave and a compensation payment presented to the deceased's family [is required] unless they give [up their right as] charity. But if the deceased was from a people at war with you and he was a believer - then [only] the freeing of a believing slave; and if he was from a people with whom you have a treaty - then a compensation payment presented to his family and the freeing of a believing slave. And whoever does not find [one or cannot afford to buy one] - then [instead], a fast for two months consecutively, [seeking] acceptance of repentance from Allah . And Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.

--------------------------------------------

You can dance around on that pin...but the first verse says what it says. Not something else. A quote from Allah.

 

[DogOnPorch]

1 hour ago, jacee said:

Christianity is a systemically bigoted religion, which can be proven by looking at how the  Christian states operate. As I've said before, none treat women equally, and none treat unbelievers equally to Christians. You'd think at least one or two would! I mean, there's lots of them! But nope.

And you want us to respect that?

 

Which Christian countries treat non-Christians as Second Class citizens again?

[Argus]

1 hour ago, jacee said:

Christianity is a systemically bigoted religion, which can be proven by looking at how the  Christian states operate. As I've said before, none treat women equally, and none treat unbelievers equally to Christians. You'd think at least one or two would! I mean, there's lots of them! But nope.

And you want us to respect that?

That's about as brainless a reply as I've seen in a while. Most western Christian countries treat men and women equally under the law, and most treat unbelievers and Christians equally. That's the general rule in almost all Christian countries, in fact. Can you name me those who don't?

Edited July 12, 2019 by Argus

[Argus]

29 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Which Christian countries treat non-Christians as Second Class citizens again?

You have to remember how progressives think. For example.

Brown country executes gays

Some parts of white country disapproves of gay marriage

They're the same! They're equally evil!

Women in Muslim country must wear burka, can't go outside without husband's permission, can be legally beaten and raped by husband with impunity.

Women are sometimes sexually assaulted in white country.

The SAME! They're EXACTLY THE SAME!

This is the way progressives 'think'.

[Marocc]

14 hours ago, Goddess said:

General safety is not what's being discussed, and you know it. We're talking about why ex-Muslims - apostates in your judgement - are not safe outside of Muslim-controlled countries. 

 

Yes, I've heard this same argument presented to explain why hijabs and burkas are a "choice".  I'm an apostate from my own religion and while they do not prescribe literal death for me (I'm actually 100% confident they will not literally kill me, unlike Muslim apostates, so I don't hire bodyguards), they do shun you like you're dead.  They tell people that that is my "choice" as well.

So you're saying they're not safe anywhere, or........???

I dont' know where you got that I am against Islamic countries having government.  Our difference, I would suggest, is what kind of government is best and I of course feel a secular government is best for humans, not one based on stone-age religious thinking.

It appears to me that you are doing a fair amount of lying here yourself.  Definitely deflecting and obfuscating. I can see why this religion needs so many Western apologists. 

Hirsi Ali is not sought because of "apostasy".

You said that according to me she should be safe in Netherlands and us. I never said so.

I didn't say you're against them but you want to write "government", I assume bacause calling them a "real" government is distasteful to you.

[Marocc]

11 hours ago, Argus said:

You have to remember how progressives think. For example.

Brown country executes gays

Some parts of white country disapproves of gay marriage

They're the same! They're equally evil!

Women in Muslim country must wear burka,

That's really rare.

[Michael Hardner]

16 hours ago, Marocc said:

Doesn't matter, does it?

If not, then why are you here adding to the conversation?

If you feel that people who speak their minds shouldn't expect to feel safe, you're showing a lack of caring for groups.  This is antithetical to Christianity and liberal tolerance.  

If you feel that you don't owe anything to other groups then you are validating the reason for this thread by framing your faith as a combative and divisive ideology.

It matters because your role here is to either confirm or dispell the thesis of the thread.

[DogOnPorch]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

If not, then why are you here adding to the conversation?

If you feel that people who speak their minds shouldn't expect to feel safe, you're showing a lack of caring for groups.  This is antithetical to Christianity and liberal tolerance.  

If you feel that you don't owe anything to other groups then you are validating the reason for this thread by framing your faith as a combative and divisive ideology.

It matters because your role here is to either confirm or dispell the thesis of the thread.

 

It truly sucks when your pet Muslim goes off the rails and starts acting like...well...according to his nature.

I'm sure Aesop has a tale about such things...