The_Squid Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Good question, no I have never seen a whale smile. How can you tell if a whale or any animal is happy? Look, I am not presenting any evidence or trying to convince anyone of my position. I generally trust the zookeepers and zooligists but am open to changing my mind. I am trying to understand yours and others that say all zoos are bad. A zooligist is not someone who works in a zoo. Most zoos do not even uphold basic standards of animal care, while some do. http://www.humanesociety.org/issues/zoos/ Even at the ones that do, the animals suffer. There is more to humanely keeping an animal than simply keeping it physically healthy. That's part of it, but behavioural abnormalities are common in zoo animals. Which is not a humane way to treat animals. This notion may, however, be wrong, for a new study shows that, at least among the great apes, holding areas have a dramatic effect on behaviour. http://www.economist.com/node/16963942 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carepov Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 Most zoos do not even uphold basic standards of animal care, while some do. http://www.humanesociety.org/issues/zoos/ Even at the ones that do, the animals suffer. There is more to humanely keeping an animal than simply keeping it physically healthy. That's part of it, but behavioural abnormalities are common in zoo animals. Which is not a humane way to treat animals. Thanks for the links, I agree with them and the idea that conditions at many zoos should improve. Are you saying that we should shut down all zoos? Are there any "good zoos" that should be examples for others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 Thanks for the links, I agree with them and the idea that conditions at many zoos should improve. Are you saying that we should shut down all zoos? Are there any "good zoos" that should be examples for others? Yes, shut down all zoos that have anything less than a "natural" setting... Which would probably be all of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carepov Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 Yes, shut down all zoos that have anything less than a "natural" setting... Which would probably be all of them. This guy seems to have a reasonable position that I support. What do you think? "keeping and using most animals in zoos, circuses, research laboratories, as pets and so on are not harmful in and of themselves" "the use of some animals for certain purposes is not analogous to the institution of human slavery" p.18: http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/21191/1/Do%20Animals%20Have%20an%20Interest%20in%20Liberty%20(LSERO).pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty AC Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 So many species are being wiped out in the wild. The rate of deforestation quadrupled between 2008 and 2011, primarily to increase beef production. I think zoos and outdoor education centres play a huge role in connecting young people to the natural world. Many zoos are simply pathetic and should be shut down, but well run facilities play an important role in fostering conservationist attitudes. Without that first hand connection people don't even see the potential problem in destroying natural habitats to create highways, parking lots and pipelines. Or torturing living creatures for cheap burgers and McNuggets. Granted, no zoo is ideal and many should be shut down but I think decent facilities do far more good than harm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 I've managed to ignore this story entirely. I've seen the headlines. I've seen this thread, but I haven't read the posts in it. Can someone tell me without sensational bleeding-heart theatrics, why I should give a crap about this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 I've managed to ignore this story entirely. I've seen the headlines. I've seen this thread, but I haven't read the posts in it. Can someone tell me without sensational bleeding-heart theatrics, why I should give a crap about this? Think of the poor baby giraffes!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 you choose to belittle responses you don't agree with by labeling those responses as "outrage". I'm outraged at your purposeful strawman! I am not one who gives out pet names for all his 'opponents', if you really want to discuss childish and belittling responses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty AC Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 I've managed to ignore this story entirely. I've seen the headlines. I've seen this thread, but I haven't read the posts in it. Can someone tell me without sensational bleeding-heart theatrics, why I should give a crap about this? Thread summary: 1) Some think allowing an audience to witness a giraffe gutted, prepped and fed to lions is outrageous. Some don't. 2) Some think that all zoos are cruel. Some don't. 3) Some are now arguing about posting etiquette and debate tactics. You're caught up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 Thread summary: 1) Some think allowing an audience to witness a giraffe gutted, prepped and fed to lions is outrageous. Some don't. 2) Some think that all zoos are cruel. Some don't. 3) Some are now arguing about posting etiquette and debate tactics. You're caught up. Point of order re point 1. Some of us just think it's weird. It's almost like the zoo went out of it's way to force a controversy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 Thread summary: 1) Some think allowing an audience to witness a giraffe gutted, prepped and fed to lions is outrageous. Some don't. 2) Some think that all zoos are cruel. Some don't. 3) Some are now arguing about posting etiquette and debate tactics. You're caught up. hey now... don't forget the guy who keeps hyping the education angle; a "biology lesson on giraffe anatomy". Clearly, I expect that audience of a dozen+ toddlers/young children will bring forward practical applications of that so-called education... and just look how inspired the world-wide response has been! Yep, lots of good learnin's here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 Were the parents aware that this is what they would be witnessing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overthere Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 I've managed to ignore this story entirely. I've seen the headlines. I've seen this thread, but I haven't read the posts in it. Can someone tell me without sensational bleeding-heart theatrics, why I should give a crap about this? Not only that, but you missed out on the yummy giraffe burgers too. Tasted like chicken. of course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted February 22, 2014 Report Share Posted February 22, 2014 I've managed to ignore this story entirely. I've seen the headlines. I've seen this thread, but I haven't read the posts in it. Can someone tell me without sensational bleeding-heart theatrics, why I should give a crap about this? You don't have to give a crap, a lot of people didn't. Personally, I was horrified because several other zoos offered to take the giraffe and some individual also offered close to $700,000 to buy him so there was no need to kill a healthy, 2 year old, beautiful giraffe. That was probably the hardest part for me. Second, some parents decided it's a good idea to bring their kids to watch this. I remember seeing a goat get slaughtered when I was young and I had nightmares for a long time after. That was the second part of the story that I couldn't even fathom. I realise that I'm further than your average person when it comes to animal rights, but those are my opinions about the whole thing and why I was aghast when I read the story. Having said that, I have more respect for people who can hunt for their food or people who can watch a giraffe get killed without even wincing than I do for the people who need to block out these things out in order to enjoy their steaming pile of cow carcass (ahem, Boges). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 22, 2014 Report Share Posted February 22, 2014 Seriously....$700,000 for a giraffe ??? You can buy thoroughbred race horses for less than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted February 22, 2014 Report Share Posted February 22, 2014 You don't have to give a crap, a lot of people didn't. Personally, I was horrified because several other zoos offered to take the giraffe and some individual also offered close to $700,000 to buy him so there was no need to kill a healthy, 2 year old, beautiful giraffe. That was probably the hardest part for me. Second, some parents decided it's a good idea to bring their kids to watch this. I remember seeing a goat get slaughtered when I was young and I had nightmares for a long time after. That was the second part of the story that I couldn't even fathom. I realise that I'm further than your average person when it comes to animal rights, but those are my opinions about the whole thing and why I was aghast when I read the story. Having said that, I have more respect for people who can hunt for their food or people who can watch a giraffe get killed without even wincing than I do for the people who need to block out these things out in order to enjoy their steaming pile of cow carcass (ahem, Boges). I'm not trying to belittle people that are against this. Just trying to understand what the opposition is about. I just couldn't understand why this was front page news. It sounds to me like you're against them killing the giraffe at all and think they should have sent it to another zoo. I can understand that. But the lions would still need to eat another animal. They're carnivores after all. You can't feed cats a vegetarian diet. The second issue seems to be that people find it appalling that parents would bring their children to witness the slaughtering of an animal. It sounds like moral objections to killing animals and making an event of watching it. You're free to take exception to those things, but I don't see a good enough reason to take that side myself. The cats needed to eat. An animal was going to die one way or the other. The giraffe was on hand. It doesn't seem like a terrible choice. Giraffes aren't endangered either. If they were, I might have reservations about it for that reason alone. Instead of being morally opposed to what they're doing, I would just think them incredibly idiotic and irresponsible in that case. They're not endangered though, so that's a moot point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 22, 2014 Report Share Posted February 22, 2014 Certain sub-species of giraffe are endangered in the wild, but there is no giraffe shortage for zoos, which easily breeds them like any other hoofstock. The issue of more inbreeding for Marius could have been solved by castration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted February 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2014 Having said that, I have more respect for people who can hunt for their food or people who can watch a giraffe get killed without even wincing than I do for the people who need to block out these things out in order to enjoy their steaming pile of cow carcass (ahem, Boges). Beauty of living in the first world I guess, someone is there to do it for me. I'm sure had I been raised in a more rural environment, I'd likely have no quams. We live in a society where people are fine spending thousands of dollars to treat a dog that didn't even cost $500. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted February 23, 2014 Report Share Posted February 23, 2014 Beauty of living in the first world I guess, someone is there to do it for me. I'm sure had I been raised in a more rural environment, I'd likely have no quams. We live in a society where people are fine spending thousands of dollars to treat a dog that didn't even cost $500. I have my own reasons for not eating meat, but if you have the capability to kill an animal, gut it and prepare it with your hands, I have more respect for the act than I do for someone who purposefully turns a blind eye to the inhumane horrors of where their food is coming farm. Just my opinion, but if you have the ability to do it, all the power to you. I'm not trying to belittle people that are against this. Just trying to understand what the opposition is about. I just couldn't understand why this was front page news. It sounds to me like you're against them killing the giraffe at all and think they should have sent it to another zoo. I can understand that. But the lions would still need to eat another animal. They're carnivores after all. You can't feed cats a vegetarian diet. The second issue seems to be that people find it appalling that parents would bring their children to witness the slaughtering of an animal. It sounds like moral objections to killing animals and making an event of watching it. You're free to take exception to those things, but I don't see a good enough reason to take that side myself. The cats needed to eat. An animal was going to die one way or the other. The giraffe was on hand. It doesn't seem like a terrible choice. Giraffes aren't endangered either. If they were, I might have reservations about it for that reason alone. Instead of being morally opposed to what they're doing, I would just think them incredibly idiotic and irresponsible in that case. They're not endangered though, so that's a moot point. Any life that can be saved is worth saving. If someone offered to take in the cow/chicken/pig (or whatever farm animal they feed lions), I would feel that the life would also be worth saving. I would feel the same way about a dog that was put down when a home was offered to it. It's completely senseless to kill an animal when a viable alternative solution exists. As for the children watching, personally I don't believe in teaching my child that it's ok to kill animals for our sake. I find the mindset that we are superior to animals akin to the mindset of slave-owners. But again, that's my opinion and I'm certainly not trying to talk you into giving 'a crap'. You asked why people were outraged and I'm giving you the reason why this person was outraged. I can't speak for the others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleeding heart Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 Thanks BC_chick, something to think about, certainly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 I still think it was a little weird and I don't get the lion-food argument in light of the $700,000 offer to buy the giraffe. $700,000 would have bought a lot of beef.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleeding heart Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 Yep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted March 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 I'm going to go out on a limb and say this. . . This Danish Zoo is a crappy Zoo. http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/world/archives/2014/03/20140325-144348.html The Copenhagen Zoo proved once again it is not clear on the concept of animal conservation when it killed a family of four lions to make way for a new, young male lion. Last month, the zoo drew outrage after it euthanized a healthy giraffe and dissected it in front of visitors, including children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.thumb.jpg.9a49e1b2f22a6d34a345152c50044aa9.jpg)
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.