carepov Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 However, I don't think any zoos should even exist. Housing animals in little cages is cruel. Why do you think that modern western zoos are cruel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted February 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Why do you think that modern western zoos are cruel? Wild animals in a cage would be the predicted response to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 (edited) Did any of you listen to the interview with the zookeeper? He has some valid reasons for what he did. One is population control, and the limited space of a zoo, Nature is cruel, would it have been different if they let the giraffe go in the pen with the lions? Edited February 12, 2014 by GostHacked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carepov Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Wild animals in a cage would be the predicted response to that. Why is that cruel? Or at least why is that any more cruel than life in nature? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted February 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 (edited) Why is that cruel? Or at least why is that any more cruel than life in nature? Cuz animal rights people know what's good for the animal. I guess it all depends on how the animals are obtained. These are the type of people that oppose culling of geese and raccoons. Edited February 12, 2014 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Why is that cruel? Or at least why is that any more cruel than life in nature? Cuz animal rights people know what's good for the animal. These are the type of people that oppose culling of geese and raccoons. why introduce a nonsensical reference to geese/raccoon culling? Do zoos "know what's good for its captive animals"? Do you know anything about natural animal behavior... rather, the abnormal and stressed animal behavior of captive animals? Zoochosis: Abnormal and Stereotypic Behaviour in Captive Animals --- there's a handy grouping of videos in that link for you! Notwithstanding conservation claims/intent, zoos don't typically host actual endangered species... the species of giraffe killed certainly isn't endangered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carepov Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Cuz animal rights people know what's good for the animal. I guess it all depends on how the animals are obtained. So you think that modern western zoos are cruel because "animal rights people" say so? http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Cuz animal rights people know what's good for the animal. I guess it all depends on how the animals are obtained. These are the type of people that oppose culling of geese and raccoons. Don't speak for what I believe. Keeping animals in a cage, or a whale in a pool, is inhumane. As Waldo has shown in the article he linked to, it has negative consequences for the animals. When have I ever said I am against culling of geese or raccoons? You made that up. And it is a red herring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 And yet thousands of cats, dogs, and other animals are euthanized each year and not ONE peep out of the people who are against what this zookeeper did. Ever been to a slaughterhouse?? A large chicken farm? Much more horrendous and inhumane activity there than what happened at this zoo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 And yet thousands of cats, dogs, and other animals are euthanized each year and not ONE peep out of the people who are against what this zookeeper did. Ever been to a slaughterhouse?? A large chicken farm? Much more horrendous and inhumane activity there than what happened at this zoo. you keep using the word "euthanize"..... what terminal illness or incurable condition was the giraffe suffering from? Comparing a zoo to a slaughterhouse, hey? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 (edited) And yet thousands of cats, dogs, and other animals are euthanized each year and not ONE peep out of the people who are against what this zookeeper did. Ever been to a slaughterhouse?? A large chicken farm? Much more horrendous and inhumane activity there than what happened at this zoo. Ever taken your kids to an autopsy of their pet dog after putting it down then publicizing your home movie of the event? Strangely enough when I kill fish for a living I have cameras watching and recording everything. Ever seen a news story about how paranoid slaughterhouse operators get when someone sneaks a camera into their operation? I'm not so much against what this zookeeper did as much as I think the whole spectacle was a little weird. Edited February 12, 2014 by eyeball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carepov Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Keeping animals in a cage, or a whale in a pool, is inhumane. As Waldo has shown in the article he linked to, it has negative consequences for the animals. Yes it can be - but if zoos are properly operated, are you against them, if so why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 you keep using the word "euthanize"..... what terminal illness or incurable condition was the giraffe suffering from? Comparing a zoo to a slaughterhouse, hey? The enclosure for the giraffes can only handle a certain number of them. Over that, and you get overcrowding and less food for the growing population. That was one reason the zookeeper was talking about. Another is that the other facilities were not equipped to handle the giraffe, or that would have taken away from breeding programs for other animals that are deemed at risk. No there is no comparison to a slaughterhouse. A slaughterhouse is much much worse/cruel/inhumane. Did you not dissect anything in biology class? A frog at least? I am sure those frogs were healthy. What about lab animals where we test cosmetics on? Plenty of other areas to get outraged over that have more reason to be outraged over compared to this story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Yes it can be - but if zoos are properly operated, are you against them, if so why? Not sure what you don't understand about my oposition to keeping large animals in cages or pools. Zoos rarely, if ever, have enough space for the animals. Some "game farms" might... but this is the very rare exception. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carepov Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Not sure what you don't understand about my oposition to keeping large animals in cages or pools. Zoos rarely, if ever, have enough space for the animals. Some "game farms" might... but this is the very rare exception. I don't understand the reason for your opposition to keeping large animals in zoos, when they are treated properly. I've been to several zoos/aquariums and the animals looked happy (whales, tigers, polar bears, giraffes, apes, camels, etc...) and more importantly the zookeepers were obviously very much in love with the animals and took good care of them. I saw no reason to be opposed to these zoos/aquariums and that's why I'm asking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 The enclosure for the giraffes can only handle a certain number of them. Over that, and you get overcrowding and less food for the growing population. That was one reason the zookeeper was talking about. Another is that the other facilities were not equipped to handle the giraffe, or that would have taken away from breeding programs for other animals that are deemed at risk. if you accept that BS, why did the zoo allow breeding to a point this giraffe was "overcrowding" their own facility? What kind of facility management is that? And again, any fallback on conservation is lame/baseless... that giraffe species is not endangered. Other zoos were willing to accept the giraffe... and equipped to do so... they simply weren't a part of the 'EAZA' organization that the Copenhagen zoo belongs to... and accordingly weren't being managed within that organizations (collective) breeding program. . No there is no comparison to a slaughterhouse. A slaughterhouse is much much worse/cruel/inhumane. then quit making that comparison! Did you not dissect anything in biology class? A frog at least? I am sure those frogs were healthy. What about lab animals where we test cosmetics on? Plenty of other areas to get outraged over that have more reason to be outraged over compared to this story. get stuffed with your outrage strawman! Oh my gawd... all those fruit flies I did the deed on in genetics classes!!! Again, right or wrong, there is a scale within the animal world being applied here. A giraffe is not a frog... is not a mosquito... is not a fruit fly... is not commercial fish for consumption... is not slaughterhouse cows/chickens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 I don't understand the reason for your opposition to keeping large animals in zoos, when they are treated properly. I've been to several zoos/aquariums and the animals looked happy (whales, tigers, polar bears, giraffes, apes, camels, etc...) and more importantly the zookeepers were obviously very much in love with the animals and took good care of them. I saw no reason to be opposed to these zoos/aquariums and that's why I'm asking. I supplied a link... with an assortment of videos, that speaks to the abnormal behaviour and distress that captive animals exhibit. Do you equate your described "looking happy" with looking cute? Having dived around most of the world's tropical/sub-tropical areas, I can speak more directly (from experience) to aquariums. I've seen full-on ocean predation on many, many levels... I've had the greatest of opportunities to watch ocean life in its most natural of states. No aquarium I've visited (and I've been to many), on any level, can replicate a natural ocean environment - not even close! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 if you accept that BS, why did the zoo allow breeding to a point this giraffe was "overcrowding" their own facility? What kind of facility management is that? And again, any fallback on conservation is lame/baseless... that giraffe species is not endangered. Other zoos were willing to accept the giraffe... and equipped to do so... they simply weren't a part of the 'EAZA' organization that the Copenhagen zoo belongs to... and accordingly weren't being managed within that organizations (collective) breeding program. . then quit making that comparison! There is no comparison, I agree, slaughterhouses are in a class of cruelty all on their own. get stuffed with your outrage strawman! Oh my gawd... all those fruit flies I did the deed on in genetics classes!!! Again, right or wrong, there is a scale within the animal world being applied here. A giraffe is not a frog... is not a mosquito... is not a fruit fly... is not commercial fish for consumption... is not slaughterhouse cows/chickens. Not a very mature response with 'get stuffed'. Looks like I hit a nerve, I am not the one who is outraged over this giraffe. I am calling out the outrage applied to this one animal. You hold a hierarchical view value which is applied to different animals, which allows you to be outraged at this one animal death compared to the millions of others killed for food/clothing or even entertainment. What about the shark fins where they are cut from the shark and the rest tossed overboard. I can name a few other examples if you like. People put down pets because they are inconvenient and cramps on their lifestyle. Or they had no idea that a pet involved a lot of work and money (vet bills). Those actions are way more deplorable than what this zoo did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 There is no comparison, I agree, slaughterhouses are in a class of cruelty all on their own.Swift death, dont feel much beyond the piston thump (cows) or the electrical prod around the neck (pigs) After that its all over in a moment. Worked around the kill line for quite some time. Didnt seem all that bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 You hold a hierarchical view value which is applied to different animals, which allows you to be outraged at this one animal death compared to the millions of others killed for food/clothing or even entertainment. What about the shark fins where they are cut from the shark and the rest tossed overboard. I can name a few other examples if you like. People put down pets because they are inconvenient and cramps on their lifestyle. Or they had no idea that a pet involved a lot of work and money (vet bills). Those actions are way more deplorable than what this zoo did. you choose to belittle responses you don't agree with by labeling those responses as "outrage". I'm outraged at your purposeful strawman! this is a thread about the killing of a giraffe... if you'd like some of your strawman outrage displayed over slaughterhouse processing..... or 'sharks for fins'... you might find it displayed in any related threads you might choose to start up. It's always enlightening to read someone (like you) attempt to invalidate a raised concern, because it's not broad and all-encompassing... you know, to cover all your raised strawmen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted February 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Didn't you see Game of Thrones, you can't let the animal know they're about to die or the meat will be spoiled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Didn't you see Game of Thrones, you can't let the animal know they're about to die or the meat will be spoiled.LOL I can say I think the pigs knew , the cows....they just went "hey, whats up this gangplank? " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 I don't understand the reason for your opposition to keeping large animals in zoos, when they are treated properly. I've been to several zoos/aquariums and the animals looked happy (whales, tigers, polar bears, giraffes, apes, camels, etc...) and more importantly the zookeepers were obviously very much in love with the animals and took good care of them. I saw no reason to be opposed to these zoos/aquariums and that's why I'm asking. So you saw a smile on the whale's face? That's about the dumbest evidence for the positive effects of zoos I've ever heard. Treating them properly is not putting a bear in a cage in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carepov Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 So you saw a smile on the whale's face? That's about the dumbest evidence for the positive effects of zoos I've ever heard. Treating them properly is not putting a bear in a cage in the first place. Good question, no I have never seen a whale smile. How can you tell if a whale or any animal is happy? Look, I am not presenting any evidence or trying to convince anyone of my position. I generally trust the zookeepers and zooligists but am open to changing my mind. I am trying to understand yours and others that say all zoos are bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carepov Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 I supplied a link... with an assortment of videos, that speaks to the abnormal behaviour and distress that captive animals exhibit. AFAIK, zookeepers are aware of these issues related to captivity and try their best to prevent them. Is the abmormal behaviour and distress in zoos common or rare? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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