U.S. is spying on its citizens and others

[Bonam]

i responded to bonam's post who went on and on about how the japanese had the abomb coming and how they deserved it.

Honestly couldn't even tell from your post that you were replying to me. I provided historical context for the events at the end of WWII in a calm and rational manner. If the above is all you got out of it, well, your loss. You did nothing but hurl an insult (which I am unsurprised by).

[dre]

Well said. I've seen estimates of over a hundred thousand casualties on the US side alone if they attempted to actually invade the island of Japan. Apparently it's up to America to take an enormous amount of injured and dead, because the country that started a war with them by sneak attck while pretending to negotiate diplomatically isn't prepared to surrender yet. But it's always America's fault, never the enemies.

There was no need to invade Japan. They were boxed in by an effective naval blockade.

[Bonam]

There was no need to invade Japan. They were boxed in by an effective naval blockade.

Not invading Japan wasn't really an option that was on the table. Japan was going to be invaded by late August, whether by the US or the USSR, or both, unless they surrendered before that.

[dre]

Not invading Japan wasn't really an option that was on the table. Japan was going to be invaded by late August, whether by the US or the USSR, or both, unless they surrendered before that.

And they probably would have if the Potsdam declaration didnt demand the removal of the emperor, which was dropped later anyways.

But the undisputed fact is that the bombings were not required to win the war, and most of the military leadership didnt think they were necessary. It was a political move designed to send a message to the Russians, and a punitive measure much like the firebombing of civilians in Germany.

This from the highest ranking military officer during world war 2... Fleet William D. Leahy...

It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons.

Like I said... This was a political move that left the US military scratching its head...

Edited September 22, 2013 by dre

[Bonam]

But the undisputed fact is that the bombings were not required to win the war

No one individual act was "required" to win the war. The war was won through a combination of thousands of individual acts, all of which culminated in victory. Many of those other acts also involved the killing of "civilians", and doubtless any alternative action to finish the war besides the atomic bombings would have also resulted in many casualties. I believe it was appropriate to use whatever means were available to bring the war to a close as quickly as possible.

and a punitive measure much like the firebombing of civilians in Germany.

Germany was fighting an all out war to the death, an existential struggle. There were no civilians. Almost every able-bodied German contributed in one way or another to the war machine. If an allied commander in 1941-1944 could have pressed a single button that would have utterly destroyed all of Germany and every single person within it, they should have done so. Fortunately, the world has forgotten what it means to be engaged in such a war, and I sincerely hope there never is such a war again.

Edited September 22, 2013 by Bonam

[dre]

Germany was fighting an all out war to the death, an existential struggle. There were no civilians. Almost every able-bodied German contributed in one way or another to the war machine. If an allied commander in 1941-1944 could have pressed a single button that would have utterly destroyed all of Germany and every single person within it, they should have done so. Fortunately, the world has forgotten what it means to be engaged in such a war, and I sincerely hope there never is such a war again.

No again these punitive actions came after Germany was soundly defeated, and against the backdrop of the Soviets marching in to finish the job. Well into 1945.

I believe it was appropriate to use whatever means were available to bring the war to a close as quickly as possible.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree... Because I DONT believe its appropriate to target large civilian centers in order to get an opponent thats already been soundly defeated to surrender a bit sooner. And as I pointed out, most of the military leaders that were actually there to witness it dont believe it was necessary either.

Edited September 22, 2013 by dre

[Bonam]

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree... Because I DONT believe its appropriate to target large civilian centers in order to get an opponent thats already been soundly defeated to surrender a bit sooner.

In world war II it was appropriate. Otherwise, I agree.

By the way, the overwhelming majority of civilians killed in WWII were allied civilians, by a factor of almost 15:1.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f1/World_War_II_Casualties2.svg/800px-World_War_II_Casualties2.svg.png

And with every day that passed, more civilians were being slaughtered. Japanese forces were continuing to exterminate Chinese civilians to the very last days of the war, just as Germany was continuing to exterminate Jews until the very last days.

The numbers don't lie. The allies did a more than adequate job minimizing civilian casualties on the axis side. If anything, they should have held back less than they did, if it could have ended the war any sooner.

[GostHacked]

This has gotten way off topic now.

[GostHacked]

Lee Camp nails it again.

[GostHacked]

National Security Letters.

Obama at 5:05 while still a senator in 2005. Revealing the gag orders and such against ISPs when implementing NSA programs with that ISP. So I am guessing this was when he was against it before he was for it.

"This is legislation that puts our own justice department above the law. When National Security letters are issued, they allow federal agents to conduct any search on any American no matter how extensive, how wide ranging, without ever going before a judge to prove that the search is necessary. All that is needed, is a sign off from a local FBI agent. That's it. Once a person of a business receives notification that they will be searched, they are prohibited from telling anyone about it. And their even prohibited from challenging this automatic gag order in court. Even though judges have already found that similar restrictions violate the 1st Amendment, this conference report disregards the case law and the right to challenge the gag order. If you do decide to consult an attorney for legal advice, hold on, you will have to tell the FBI that you've done so. Think about that. You want to talk to a lawyer about whether or not your actions are going to be causing you to get into trouble. You've got to tell the FBI that you are consulting a lawyer. This is unheard of. There is no such requirement in any other area of the law. I see no reason why it's justified here"

That's the best I could transcribe this bit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpRp-D5v5NQ#t=350

Still think Snowden could have gone through the legit channels?? Anyone?

[eyeball]

He did go through a legit channel, the most legitimate one there is given the destination - the public.

[GostHacked]

He did go through a legit channel, the most legitimate one there is given the destination - the public.

I can accept that notion.

[kimmy]

Well, we already knew that Keith Alexander is a lot less cool than Alexander Keith, and Alexander Keith has been dead for 140 years.

But now we also know that NSA Director Keith Alexander is a big fat liar.

In the course of defending the importance of mass-collection of peoples' phone records, Lt. Gen. Alexander had claimed that the information collected from cell phone providers has foiled 54 terror plots.

But today under questioning from the Senate Judiciary Committee, Lt. Gen. Alexander said that the actual number is either one or two "suspected: plots.

1... 2... 54... it's easy to see how a guy could get mixed up.

-k

[Moonlight Graham]

Still think Snowden could have gone through the legit channels?? Anyone?

Yes. At least make the attempt. Maybe Snowden did have to sign some kind of gag order in the NSA also, but he should still have gone to a Congressman/woman or something, even if it was technically illegal. He should have done was Daniel Ellsberg did.

He did go through a legit channel, the most legitimate one there is given the destination - the public.

When you're dealing with classified national security matters, it changes things. ie: If Julian Assange slaps 10,000 documents onto the web without even reviewing them, it can create dangerous problems, ie: it could expose CIA agents in the field and risk their lives.

Edited October 16, 2013 by Moonlight Graham

[GostHacked]

Yes. At least make the attempt. Maybe Snowden did have to sign some kind of gag order in the NSA also, but he should still have gone to a Congressman/woman or something, even if it was technically illegal. He should have done was Daniel Ellsberg did.

That may have been an option then, but today the government really wants to control what it gets out. And if this program puts them in a bad light, then they will put out the talking points to counter that. Trotting out the boogie man ones again. Micheal Hastings was about to reveal some large information on the government and I think specifically Obama, but he met an unfortunate end with his car blowing up when hitting a tree. Cars blow up every day, or at least that is what the movies are led to make me believe. So does not seem suspicious at all.

When you're dealing with classified national security matters, it changes things.

If Kimmy's numbers are correct, how classified or secret is the material if close to a million agents have access to this information? This NSA program is another prime example of blanket security. Overblown idiotic reaction/implementation to a threat that is really quite low on the scale of things.

[Bonam]

If Kimmy's numbers are correct, how classified or secret is the material if close to a million agents have access to this information?

Indeed. The first rule of keeping secrets is, if more than two people know about it, it's not a secret.

[Moonlight Graham]

That may have been an option then, but today the government really wants to control what it gets out. And if this program puts them in a bad light, then they will put out the talking points to counter that. Trotting out the boogie man ones again. Micheal Hastings was about to reveal some large information on the government and I think specifically Obama, but he met an unfortunate end with his car blowing up when hitting a tree. Cars blow up every day, or at least that is what the movies are led to make me believe. So does not seem suspicious at all.

That doesn't make it ok. To make himself safe while going through more appropriate channels, how about instead of fleeing to Hong Kong and telling the media, Snowden flee to Hong Kong and tell some people in Congress,

If Kimmy's numbers are correct, how classified or secret is the material if close to a million agents have access to this information? This NSA program is another prime example of blanket security. Overblown idiotic reaction/implementation to a threat that is really quite low on the scale of things.

Classified is still classified. It was enough of a secret that nobody knew about it until Snowden revealed it. If it wasn't a secret, there wouldn't have been a whistle to blow.

[GostHacked]

That doesn't make it ok. To make himself safe while going through more appropriate channels, how about instead of fleeing to Hong Kong and telling the media, Snowden flee to Hong Kong and tell some people in Congress,

Classified is still classified. It was enough of a secret that nobody knew about it until Snowden revealed it. If it wasn't a secret, there wouldn't have been a whistle to blow.

The only thing Snowden revealed to me is the extent of the program. Google, Apple, Facebook and Microsoft have always had cozy relationship with the government and security agencies specifically. It's been proven before that the NSA has been building secret rooms off major internet hubs to siphon the data off and collect it. That was back in 2004. I knew it was big, but this is way bigger than even I had imagined.

You don't blow the lid on something of this scale by going through the right channels. But again, how classified and secure is their information if close to a million agents have access to it?

The real secrets are never revealed to agents like Snowden, not at his level.

[Shady]

Brutal. Just brutal.

This is another great example of the political ruling class vs the average citizen. They continue to pass laws while exempting themselves from them.

Feds invoke 'privacy' to shield public employees while snooping on the rest of us

http://washingtonexaminer.com/feds-invoke-privacy-to-shield-public-employees-while-snooping-on-americans/article/2537682

[waldo]

Brutal. Just brutal.

yup... more from Saint Snowden!

-The NSA Monitored The Phone Calls Of 35 World Leaders

- NSA spied on the Italian government and military

[guyser]

yup... more from Saint Snowden!

-The NSA Monitored The Phone Calls Of 35 World Leaders

- NSA spied on the Italian government and military

See, more proof Snowden should have just mosied on down to the local newspaper and told his story to them, with all the proof of course.

Nothing would have happened to him as some here had said. You know,traitor and all that.

Probably would have gotten a fine or some such.

For those who are SOS, you now have proof why he couldnt do what you wanted.

[dre]

That doesn't make it ok. To make himself safe while going through more appropriate channels, how about instead of fleeing to Hong Kong and telling the media, Snowden flee to Hong Kong and tell some people in Congress,

Classified is still classified. It was enough of a secret that nobody knew about it until Snowden revealed it. If it wasn't a secret, there wouldn't have been a whistle to blow.

The problem is Snowden knew what happened to other people that tried to go through the more appropriate channels. People who went to congress were STILL charged under the espionage act, etc. One of them got out of the shower and found a gun to his head in front of his family.

Once he decided to blow the whistle flight was really his only option.

He did exactly the right thing.

[GostHacked]

The problem is Snowden knew what happened to other people that tried to go through the more appropriate channels. People who went to congress were STILL charged under the espionage act, etc. One of them got out of the shower and found a gun to his head in front of his family.

Once he decided to blow the whistle flight was really his only option.

He did exactly the right thing.

100% agreed. And this thing keeps getting bigger and more extensive. As a former professional IT person, and knowing/working within one very large corporate infrastructure, this keeps blowing my mind.

I am still not 100% sure about Snowden or his motives/reasons, but I am quite glad he got this out.

[Moonlight Graham]

The problem is Snowden knew what happened to other people that tried to go through the more appropriate channels. People who went to congress were STILL charged under the espionage act, etc. One of them got out of the shower and found a gun to his head in front of his family.

You have any links to show this?

[bush_cheney2004]

yup... more from Saint Snowden!

-The NSA Monitored The Phone Calls Of 35 World Leaders

- NSA spied on the Italian government and military

Great...I wish Snowden would tell us something we don't already know. The NSA spies worldwide on everybody....shocking !