U.S. is spying on its citizens and others

[cybercoma]

So I guess the US is going to tell us that there's al Qaeda operatives in the European Union offices that they've not only bugged, but gained access to their computer networks.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/06/29/us-eu-spying.html?cmp=fbtl

[GostHacked]

Another good one by the Judge

[Shady]

Another good one by the Judge

Good post. The risk of abusing such power is real and tremendous. And the rubber stamping of the court as a check is not really a check on this type of power at all.

[GostHacked]

Good post. The risk of abusing such power is real and tremendous. And the rubber stamping of the court as a check is not really a check on this type of power at all.

But this is the risk 100% here. The government has already been working for over a decade to get to this stage. The slippery slope the Judge talks about has already been steadily slipping for decades.

One has to go back some to see how we got to this stage, and well much of what Obama has done, has been expanded on what Bush did and then Clinton before him and Bush Sr Before him and so on.

Couple statements here, few executing orders there, toss in PATRIOT ACT and the NDAA, and soon you will be risking freedom and liberty at home. You know, home is that one place that is to have that freedom and liberty fiercely protected.

[ReeferMadness]

Thats a drop in the bucket, and all you have to do is increase the size of the key and cracking it becomes astronomically harder.

For example... 96 bit encryption is 4.3 BILLION times harder to crack than 64 bit encryption. The largest RC5 key ever cracked was 64 bits, and it took hundreds of thousands of computers working together almost 5 years. That same bank of hundreds of thousands of computers would take more than 20 BILLION years to crack a 96 bit key. And the government would have to do this for every single email they want to read.

With AES 128 bit encryption it would take a billion billion years for the fastest computer in the world today to crack it. Thats longer than the universe is old.

And encryption algorithms will just keep getting stronger, and the keys will just keep getting longer.

I'm no expert in cryptography but it seems to me that you're making a few assumptions:

• that the method used to break in would be a 'brute force' attack (ie trying all of the keys)
• that some of the surveillance organizations don't already have 'back doors' into public encryption schemes
• that only conventional computers are used. Theoretically, at least, quantum computers would have no problem cracking existing encryption schemes

Encryption is no magic bullet

[ReeferMadness]

Good post. The risk of abusing such power is real and tremendous. And the rubber stamping of the court as a check is not really a check on this type of power at all.

Does anyone else find it odd that these so-called Libertarians who have no trouble getting enraged that the government is enforcing a minimum wage are suddenly conflicted over a massive, uncontrolled invasion of privacy?

[bush_cheney2004]

No...as there is no such thing as privacy, largely because of voluntary actions by individuals.

[Guest American Woman]

Evidently, even as the EU is "shocked" to learn that the U.S. spied on them, no country is coming forth to offer Snowden asylum. Snowden has withdrawn his application for asylum in Russia because he won't agree to abide by Putin's condition to stop leaking U.S. secrets. He's applied to 20 countries, Canada not among them.

So far, he's been rejected by Brazil, Finland, Germany, India and Poland. Several countries have punted on the decision, saying he has to be on their soil to apply, including Austria, Ecuador, Norway and Spain. Most countries, however, have yet to offer a firm response either way, including Venezuela, Bolivia, China, Cuba, France, Iceland, Italy, Ireland, Netherlands, Nicaragua, and Switzerland.

Seems to me that if these countries really thought what the U.S. was doing was so horrible, so unlike anything they are doing, they would be more than ready to offer up asylum.

Really the only likely difference between the U.S.'s spying and their's is advanced technology in the U.S.

[waldo]

Really the only likely difference between the U.S.'s spying and their's is advanced technology in the U.S.

ya, ya... the United States of Surveillance has it all over those EU rubes! The EU objecting to the reported U.S. NSA widespread covert surveillance of EU offices, embassies in Washington, the UN in New York, and the EU headquarters in Brussels... that's just EU sour grapes cause they just don't have the yankee smarts to do the same!!!

[Guest American Woman]

ya, ya... the United States of Surveillance has it all over those EU rubes! The EU objecting to the reported U.S. NSA widespread covert surveillance of EU offices, embassies in Washington, the UN in New York, and the EU headquarters in Brussels... that's just EU sour grapes cause they just don't have the yankee smarts to do the same!!!

They're making noise because it's the thing to do. The U.S. would be making similar noise. Because we all do it. As has been pointed out repeatedly. But the U.S. does have the edge in technology. If that translates as "more smarts" to you, I guess that's your prerogative.

Excerpts (emphasis mine):

LONDON -- The saga of Edward Snowden and the NSA makes one thing clear: The United States' central role in developing the Internet and hosting its most powerful players has made it the global leader in the surveillance game.

Other countries, from dictatorships to democracies, are also avid snoopers, tapping into the high-capacity fiber optic cables to intercept Internet traffic, scooping their citizens' data off domestic servers, and even launching cyberattacks to win access to foreign networks.

But experts in the field say that Silicon Valley has made America a surveillance superpower, allowing its spies access to massive mountains of data being collected by the world's leading communications, social media, and online storage companies. That's on top of the United States' fiber optic infrastructure - responsible for just under a third of the world's international Internet capacity, according to telecom research firm TeleGeography - which allows it to act as a global postmaster, complete with the ability to peek at a big chunk of the world's messages in transit.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/07/02/3481450/in-golden-age-of-surveillance.html#storylink=cpy

[GostHacked]

AW

I would think that this line would need to be bolded.

"LONDON -- The saga of Edward Snowden and the NSA makes one thing clear: The United States' central role in developing the Internet and hosting its most powerful players has made it the global leader in the surveillance game."

The US has a good grip on the Internet as a whole and now treats it like a weapons system. Granted the US spied on others and other spy on the US. However, what Snowden revealed was the rampant surveillance on US citizens at home IN the USA.

[Guest American Woman]

AW

I would think that this line would need to be bolded.

"LONDON -- The saga of Edward Snowden and the NSA makes one thing clear: The United States' central role in developing the Internet and hosting its most powerful players has made it the global leader in the surveillance game."

The US has a good grip on the Internet as a whole and now treats it like a weapons system. Granted the US spied on others and other spy on the US. However, what Snowden revealed was the rampant surveillance on US citizens at home IN the USA.

Why? You think the U.S. is the only country that has surveillance within it's country? I bolded this for a reason:

Other countries, from dictatorships to democracies, are also avid snoopers, tapping into the high-capacity fiber optic cables to intercept Internet traffic, scooping their citizens' data off domestic servers

[Scotty]

The French are never ones to let an opportunity to complain about Americans go by, regardless of how hypocritical they have to be. They even take an invitation to a 4th of July birthday party at the Ambassador's residence to denounce American espionage - only a French newspaper has revealed they do all the same stuff too.

Hypocrisy of Hollande's fury over Snowden revelations as it's revealed French intelligence services spy on public's phone calls, emails and social media

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2356178/Hollandes-hypocrisy-Edward-Snowden-revelations-revealed-French-intelligence-services-spy-illegally.html

Edited July 4, 2013 by Scotty

[GostHacked]

Why? You think the U.S. is the only country that has surveillance within it's country? I bolded this for a reason:

Other countries, from dictatorships to democracies, are also avid snoopers, tapping into the high-capacity fiber optic cables to intercept Internet traffic, scooping their citizens' data off domestic servers

It might be expected that other countries spy on their own citizens. The becon of liberty that WAS the USA seems a lot dimmer since they said 'no we are not spying on Americans', then admit that they are.

[Scotty]

It might be expected that other countries spy on their own citizens. The becon of liberty that WAS the USA seems a lot dimmer since they said 'no we are not spying on Americans', then admit that they are.

Not entirely accurate. They said they were gathering meta data of calls which go to or come from foreign stations. Any electronic surveillance of Americans requires a search warrant.

[GostHacked]

Not entirely accurate. They said they were gathering meta data of calls which go to or come from foreign stations. Any electronic surveillance of Americans requires a search warrant.

Not entirely accurate, as long as the American is talking to a foreigner (no matter the location of the foreigner) then that is all they need to collect the meta data or listen in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Act

This is the piece of legislation that allows them to target Americans.

The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 ("FISA" Pub.L. 95–511, 92 Stat. 1783, 50 U.S.C. ch. 36) is a United States law which prescribes procedures for the physical and electronic surveillance and collection of "foreign intelligence information" between "foreign powers" and "agents of foreign powers" (which may include American citizens and permanent residents suspected of espionage or terrorism).[1] The law does not apply outside the United States. The law has been repeatedly amended since the September 11 attacks.

So some confusion, not sure if it is the article and how it is written. So FISA is collecting information on foreign powers, but the law does not apply to outside of the USA.

The FISA resulted from extensive investigations by Senate Committees into the legality of domestic intelligence activities. These investigations were led separately by Sam Ervin and Frank Church in 1978 as a response to President Richard Nixon’s usage of federal resources to spy on political and activist groups, which violates the Fourth Amendment.[4] The act was created to provide Judicial and congressional oversight of the government's covert surveillance activities of foreign entities and individuals in the United States, while maintaining the secrecy needed to protect national security. It allowed surveillance, without court order, within the United States for up to one year unless the "surveillance will acquire the contents of any communication to which a United States person is a party". If a United States person is involved, judicial authorization was required within 72 hours after surveillance begins.

So Nixon used federal resources to spy on Americans violating the 4th Amendent. Now we have learned that Obama has done much of the same (IRS targetting groups during Occupy.... NSA ect). Now mind you that the laws have changed, but in actuallity the 4th Amendment is still being violated. So we can have a LEGAL law while that law still violates the constitution. I think Nixon was impeached for some of the same actions Obama is now taking part in.

[cybercoma]

Bush-Cheney began spying on US citizens before 9/11, according to a telecomm CEO. This contradicts Cheney's recent statements that the spying program would have stopped 9/11.

[Guest American Woman]

It might be expected that other countries spy on their own citizens. The becon of liberty that WAS the USA seems a lot dimmer since they said 'no we are not spying on Americans', then admit that they are.

Yeah, it was a shocker. Just as shocking as the idea of Canada spying on its own citizens - because it said it doesn't. You'd think they'd just come out and admit it, eh?

[GostHacked]

Yeah, it was a shocker. Just as shocking as the idea of Canada spying on its own citizens - because it said it doesn't. You'd think they'd just come out and admit it, eh?

I am not naive enough to think that the Canadian government is NOT spying on Canadians. We do not have a document like the constitution that protects us from these kinds of things. We have a bill of rights, but I don't know how much weight it actually has to prevent this kind of thing.

We already had issues with Vic Toews and the warrant-less Internet wiretapping surveillance bill some time ago. A bill that got shot down, but does that mean they are NOT doing the spying? Of course they are. But since the information may not be available, that would allow someone to say that it is NOT happening.

Of course the Canadian government won't admit they are doing something illegal. One would be a complete fool to think otherwise.

[Guest American Woman]

I am not naive enough to think that the Canadian government is NOT spying on Canadians. We do not have a document like the constitution that protects us from these kinds of things. We have a bill of rights, but I don't know how much weight it actually has to prevent this kind of thing.

We already had issues with Vic Toews and the warrant-less Internet wiretapping surveillance bill some time ago. A bill that got shot down, but does that mean they are NOT doing the spying? Of course they are. But since the information may not be available, that would allow someone to say that it is NOT happening.

Of course the Canadian government won't admit they are doing something illegal. One would be a complete fool to think otherwise.

Of course Canada isn't going to admit it; of course it's going to actually deny it. Same as the U.S. You expected more from the U.S. than from your own country? Makes no sense. Also makes no sense why Snowden's revelation should have been so shocking. As you said, you, like me, are not naive enough to think your government isn't "spying" on your own citizens.

[GostHacked]

Of course Canada isn't going to admit it; of course it's going to actually deny it. Same as the U.S. You expected more from the U.S. than from your own country? Makes no sense. Also makes no sense why Snowden's revelation should have been so shocking. As you said, you, like me, are not naive enough to think your government isn't "spying" on your own citizens.

But people would still love to attack Snowden's character instead of dealing with the system that is affecting and spying on ALL Americans. The outrage seems quite misdirected.

[Guest American Woman]

But people would still love to attack Snowden's character instead of dealing with the system that is affecting and spying on ALL Americans. The outrage seems quite misdirected.

"Character" and "breaking the law" and "risking the security of one's country" are very different things.

[cybercoma]

Yeah, it was a shocker. Just as shocking as the idea of Canada spying on its own citizens - because it said it doesn't. You'd think they'd just come out and admit it, eh?

I'm just going to repost what someone said on reddit to comments like yours because it's completely apt.

I don't know why most of the comments are, "Who is surprised by this?"

What the f*** is that? First off, there is no harm in relaying information that most people probably are not aware of or even if they are aware, to what extent. If you would have, 6 months ago, said the American government was - through a secret court and secret program - hijacking the backbone of every Internet cable and logging all text, email, video, and cloud traffic possible, in order to spy on allies and enemies alike, then sharing said information with their "partners," including what amounts to the majority of the EU, you would have been laughed off reddit.

Don't trivialize something because you want to look smarter than your peers, as Peter Griffin would say, it's "shallow and pedantic." I, for one, am surprised at the way my government is acting on my (and your) behalf.

Your fellow American.

[Guest American Woman]

I'm just going to repost what someone said on reddit to comments like yours because it's completely apt.

Your fellow American.

I have lots of fellow Americans. Over 312 million to be exact, so I'm not sure why what one anonymous American said on a site I don't visit is supposed to mean anything to me; especially one that I don't think comes off as particularly intelligent/knowledgeable.

Edited July 15, 2013 by American Woman

[Guest Derek L]

I am not naive enough to think that the Canadian government is NOT spying on Canadians. We do not have a document like the constitution that protects us from these kinds of things. We have a bill of rights, but I don't know how much weight it actually has to prevent this kind of thing.

We already had issues with Vic Toews and the warrant-less Internet wiretapping surveillance bill some time ago. A bill that got shot down, but does that mean they are NOT doing the spying? Of course they are. But since the information may not be available, that would allow someone to say that it is NOT happening.

Of course the Canadian government won't admit they are doing something illegal. One would be a complete fool to think otherwise.

Wait.......I remember that thread from a year and half ago.........several posters suggested I was full of beans on the subject of "domestic spying"......anyways, carry on:

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/20413-anonymous-gives-toews-7-days/page-7

Earth shattering news this all is....