U.S. is spying on its citizens and others

[kimmy]

So the Brazilian oil company PetroBras is apparently among the terrorists that the NSA is protecting Americans from.

-k

[dre]

So the Brazilian oil company PetroBras is apparently among the terrorists that the NSA is protecting Americans from.

-k

I knew it was just a matter of time until those Brazilian oil workers strapped on suicide vests!

[Guest American Woman]

So the Brazilian oil company PetroBras is apparently among the terrorists that the NSA is protecting Americans from.

I think this says it all:

The NSA spying on Petrobras is no different from the NSA spying on the Brazilian government. And if you’re surprised and disturbed that the U.S. government spies on other governments then you just need to wake up.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2013/09/09/of-course-the-nsa-should-be-spying-on-petrobras/

Edited to add:

OMG!! Say it's not true! Canada government spies on its own people: Report And *gasp* "activities outside the country..."

But I'm sure Brazil doesn't/doesn't even try.

Edited September 14, 2013 by American Woman

[dre]

I keep seeing this kind of defense trotted out. Brazil might be doing the same thing, so that excuses everything we do.

I call this the "everyone is raping little kids these days!!!" defense.

Yeah I raped a little kid! But Bob down the street has raped like three!!!

OMG!! Say it's not true! Canada government spies on its own people: Report And *gasp* "activities outside the country..."

I pity anyone that might say its not true. The Canadian government does care anymore about our rights, than the American government does yours. Both of them see human/ civil rights as a major hassle/inconvenience. And I would too!

Edited September 15, 2013 by dre

[Guest American Woman]

I keep seeing this kind of defense trotted out. Brazil might be doing the same thing, so that excuses everything we do.

I call this the "everyone is raping little kids these days!!!" defense.

Of course the "raping little kids" scenario fits whatever issue we're talking about, eh? But I'll go along with it and I'll use that analogy too.

So. I call all the whining about the U.S. spying 'everyone is doing it so concentrate on cleaning up your own backyard before going off about someone else' hypocrisy. In other words, to use your analogy, I see it as 'watching your own family and a lot of others raping little kids while criticizing the neighbor for doing it!!!"'

ie: It comes across as ridiculous for someone whose own coutnry is engaging in the same conduct to criticize the U.S. for doing it to Brazil when Brazil is doing it, too. That tells me that it's more about the U.S. than the behavior.

I pity anyone that might say its not true. The Canadian government does care anymore about our rights, than the American government does yours. Both of them see human/ civil rights as a major hassle/inconvenience. And I would too!

I'm not quite sure what you meant to say here.

Edited to add: I don't find it shocking (ie: comparable to "rape") that my country is spying on others. I would find it more shocking if we weren't. We have to live in the Real World, and part of survival is having at least a clue as to what's going on elsewhere.

Edited September 15, 2013 by American Woman

[GostHacked]

Your shock should be that they are spying on Americas as much as foreigners.

[Guest American Woman]

Your shock should be that they are spying on Americas as much as foreigners.

The comments I've been responding to are in regards to the U.S. spying on Brazil/foreigners. Anyone who is shocked over that, including Brazil/foreigners, comes across as either hypocritical or clueless.

But as I pointed out - your country is spying on Canadians, too. Does that shock you?

[dre]

Of course the "raping little kids" scenario fits whatever issue we're talking about, eh? But I'll go along with it and I'll use that analogy too.

So. I call all the whining about the U.S. spying 'everyone is doing it so concentrate on cleaning up your own backyard before going off about someone else' hypocrisy. In other words, to use your analogy, I see it as 'watching your own family and a lot of others raping little kids while criticizing the neighbor for doing it!!!"'

ie: It comes across as ridiculous for someone whose own coutnry is engaging in the same conduct to criticize the U.S. for doing it to Brazil when Brazil is doing it, too. That tells me that it's more about the U.S. than the behavior.

Well you were completely correct that the Canadian government is up to its eyeballs in this kind of thing, and would like to start doing it more, and Iv critisized the hell out of them, on here, and elsewhere.

And the ERLKTS defense isnt meant to be a comparison between a given action and child rape... Its meant to show the absurdity of justifying an act based on the fact that others have also committed.

But as I pointed out - your country is spying on Canadians, too. Does that shock you?

Hell no. Our government is a serial offender. In fact they just got caught trying to sneak through internet surviellance legislation that would set up systems to sieze online communications by all Canadian citizens to be data mined. Both GH and I have spent a considerable ammount of time slamming the Canadian government for this kind of activity though so the idea that we are ignoring Canada to focus on the US is not gonna fly.

[jacee]

Edited to add: I don't find it shocking (ie: comparable to "rape") that my country is spying on others. I would find it more shocking if we weren't. We have to live in the Real World, and part of survival is having at least a clue as to what's going on elsewhere.

And part of survival is not spying on your allies, respecting agreements with them.

[Smallc]

This is the American politics part of the forum, and not the Canada does it too part, right?

[Guest American Woman]

Well you were completely correct that the Canadian government is up to its eyeballs in this kind of thing, and would like to start doing it more, and Iv critisized the hell out of them, on here, and elsewhere.

And the ERLKTS defense isnt meant to be a comparison between a given action and child rape... Its meant to show the absurdity of justifying an act based on the fact that others have also committed.

Since it seems to have escaped you, I didn't point it out to "justify" it.

Hell no. Our government is a serial offender. In fact they just got caught trying to sneak through internet surviellance legislation that would set up systems to sieze online communications by all Canadian citizens to be data mined.

Yes, hence my comment.

Both GH and I have spent a considerable ammount of time slamming the Canadian government for this kind of activity though so the idea that we are ignoring Canada to focus on the US is not gonna fly.

It's not all about you and GH, so yeah, my point does fly.

[Guest American Woman]

And part of survival is not spying on your allies, respecting agreements with them.

Oh, please. You can't trust your own government to respect your rights and not lie to you, and you're going to trust your allies to do exactly as they say?

[kimmy]

"Shock" is the wrong word. Very little that the government (either Canadian or US) does should shock anyone except for the completely naive. That we are not "shocked" does not mean that we should be meekly accepting of everything they do.

Really for the first time Americans have hard evidence to confront their government about what's actually happening rather than meekly accepting it.

Recall that just a few months ago James Clapper stood in Congress and lied to congressmen who were asking questions about the extent of what surveillance was actually being performed. And almost everything that Americans have been told about these programs, from what data was collected, to who it was being collected about, to how it's being collected, to how it is used, to the amount of oversight, has been a lie.

And only in the past couple of months has the government started to take the issue seriously, because the American public has been provided with the information to participate in that discussion.

"As loath as I am to give any credit to what's happened here, I think it's clear that some of the conversations this has generated, some of the debate, actually needed to happen. If there's a good side to this, maybe that's it."

-James Clapper

-k

[GostHacked]

It's not all about you and GH, so yeah, my point does fly.

Dre is not making it about either of us. Simply noting that dre and I have spent plenty of time talking about Canada's Internet surveillance bill as well as these US spy bills and programs. This was a response to the notion that we are only focusing on things 'American' which is false. But since you may not have participated in those threads in the Canadian politics section dealing with internet surveillance, it would be easy to claim that we are biased and only talking about the USA's issues.

So no, your point does not fly.

Dre and I have complained about the way government is going about this and what the end results could mean for people's privacy on the whole. It's being taken away in the USA, and here in Canada. So as much as it pleases some to play the Devil's Advocate on these topics these new laws are going to affect you in ways you cannot possibly think of.

No matter if you support them or not, you are going to be affected by them. We all know the term 'give an inch, they take a mile' and this is exactly what is going on here.

This is the American politics part of the forum, and not the Canada does it too part, right?

I think we need a new forum section for those exact threads. Sounds like a good idea!

---------------

In the end we are seeing these types of legislation get passed into laws for internet surveillance by the government. New Zealand recently passed laws where you no longer have the privacy online. Governments are watching.

[bud]

israel? really?

the NSA is giving raw information, including emails from its citizens, to israel.

In the months since Edward Snowden's classified document leaks, the Obama administration has repeatedly assured Americans that the National Security Agency does not intentionally collect information about U.S. citizens. The government has also said that when data are collected "inadvertently," because an American is in contact with a foreign target, the data are protected by strict "minimization procedures" that prevent the information from being misused.

New documents from Snowden reported by the Guardian on Wednesday appear to contradict those claims. They reveal that the NSA has been sharing raw intelligence information with the Israeli government without first filtering it for data on the communications of American citizens.

Link

[eyeball]

Well you were completely correct that the Canadian government is up to its eyeballs in this kind of thing, and would like to start doing it more, and Iv critisized the hell out of them, on here, and elsewhere.

I was writing letters to editors and posts on forums like this way back when Chretien was squiring Canadian Internet security specialists to Chinese officials erecting their great Firewall. It seemed blatantly obvious to me where this was all headed years ago. Trading with the sorts of governments that spy on their own people would make them more like us Ottawa told us.

Quite the two way street that turned out to be. This is what we get for allowing our governments to have unprotected relations with one another. It's not about nationalism at all, it's about our standards in human governance and our society's race/chase to the bottom.

One thing I never saw coming however was the number of sycophants who would be cheering on the race. Maybe for them it's more about the journey than the destination.

[eyeball]

In the end we are seeing these types of legislation get passed into laws for internet surveillance by the government. New Zealand recently passed laws where you no longer have the privacy online. Governments are watching.

Like piranhas they are, simply nodding and winking amongst themselves on their way to the feast. It's not a conspiracy it's just their nature.

[bud]

It's not about nationalism at all, it's about our standards in human governance and our society's race/chase to the bottom.

well said.

One thing I never saw coming however was the number of sycophants who would be cheering on the race. Maybe for them it's more about the journey than the destination.

it's baffling since i'm sure majority of these people don't really have anything to gain from these things.

Edited September 17, 2013 by bud

[bud]

oh and the NSA is giving all of this information to a foreign country, israel.

[sharkman]

Seriously though, what did you expect? In a free society where nothing is based on right or wrong morals, then everything becomes different shades of grey. Nobody wants to police their own behaviour anymore, so the government has to step in. It's inevitable. And when the amorals in the government(who are mirror images of us after all) want to spy on somebody or something, it doesn't take long to rationalize that its somehow in the national interest.

Edited September 17, 2013 by sharkman

[kimmy]

Seriously though, what did you expect? In a free society where nothing is based on right or wrong morals, then everything becomes different shades of grey. Nobody wants to police their own behaviour anymore, so the government has to step in. It's inevitable. And when the amorals in the government(who are mirror images of us after all) want to spy on somebody or something, it doesn't take long to rationalize that its somehow in the national interest.

So the solution to privacy questions is More Jesus? Is that what you're saying?

I have 3 responses to that.

First off, every President and 95%+ of members of Congress and the Senate have been Christians. if More Jesus really caused people to behave More Ethically, this wouldn't be an issue.

Secondly, US lawmakers *have* a concrete source of right-and-wrong morals to guide them; it's call the Constitution.

Finally, considering the number of contradictions in the Bible, and the number of times that peoples' understanding of the Bible has updated to reflect more modern values, the premise that the Bible is a solid source of right-and-wrong morals is dubious at best.

-k

[sharkman]

Uh no, why is everything about Jesus with you, Simpson?

Morals, a code of conduct that one has whether one follows Jesus, Mohammed, or Eli Manning.

I'm talking about YOUR morals as you are alone in your home. Do you choose to go out and steal because the government has ripped you off and you have a right? Do you cheat on your taxes because taxes are simply too high? Do you sell industry trade secrets because you have a right to be happy? Do you hate the West because all the people on your forums hate them too and think it's time to start bombing?

I'm talking about everyday man/woman and their morals in our society and behaviour. Perfectly nice kids in Vancouver that turn into rioters because there was nothing in their heads to say, "hey, this is wrong, I'm getting the hell out of here!". So they rioted because whoopy!

Our societies are actually getting to the point that government spying makes a difference. That's sad.

Edited September 17, 2013 by sharkman

[bud]

Uh no, why is everything about Jesus with you, Simpson?

Morals, a code of conduct that one has whether one follows Jesus, Mohammed, or Eli Manning.

I'm talking about YOUR morals as you are alone in your home. Do you choose to go out and steal because the government has ripped you off and you have a right? Do you cheat on your taxes because taxes are simply too high? Do you sell industry trade secrets because you have a right to be happy? Do you hate the West because all the people on your forums hate them too and think it's time to start bombing?

I'm talking about everyday man/woman and their morals in our society and behaviour. Perfectly nice kids in Vancouver that turn into rioters because there was nothing in their heads to say, "hey, this is wrong, I'm getting the hell out of here!". So they rioted because whoopy!

Our societies are actually getting to the point that government spying makes a difference. That's sad.

that is probably the worst argument for advocating spying on citizens i've read.

hopefully the government of israel will also be able to set our morals straight after looking at our emails.

[kimmy]

Uh no, why is everything about Jesus with you, Simpson?

Usually when people complain about "moral relativism", it's the preface to the argument that we need absolute morals, and the only place we can get absolute morals from is from God.

Morals, a code of conduct that one has whether one follows Jesus, Mohammed, or Eli Manning.

...but if morals can come from wherever you decide, then they're just relative, right?

I mean, if I don't like the morals I got from my parents, then maybe I can reject those and look to Buddha for moral grounding, or maybe instead of that I can look to Ayn Rand or Sartre or Batman or Gordon Gecko or frickin I dunno Genghis Khan.

I'm talking about YOUR morals as you are alone in your home. Do you choose to go out and steal because the government has ripped you off and you have a right? Do you cheat on your taxes because taxes are simply too high? Do you sell industry trade secrets because you have a right to be happy? Do you hate the West because all the people on your forums hate them too and think it's time to start bombing?

I'm talking about everyday man/woman and their morals in our society and behaviour. Perfectly nice kids in Vancouver that turn into rioters because there was nothing in their heads to say, "hey, this is wrong, I'm getting the hell out of here!". So they rioted because whoopy!

Our societies are actually getting to the point that government spying makes a difference. That's sad.

I assure you that the kids who rioted in Vancouver knew that the stuff they were doing was "wrong". There was not a single person in that riot who did not know that wrecking shops and looting and setting cars on fire was wrong. Not a single one of them is going to tell the court that "gee, I thought setting a cop-car on fire would be ok, I didn't think I was doing anything wrong."

I can't tell you why they *did* do it, but I can assure you with complete certainty that the reason *isn't* that they didn't know that destroying the city was wrong. Ditto with any murderer, robber, thief, vandal, and so-on.

And as I mentioned earlier, many bad acts are committed by people who *do* purportedly subscribe to a code of absolute morals.

-k

[sharkman]

Yep, I agree that they knew what they were doing was wrong. Perhaps I worded it badly. The point I was trying to make is, they didn't stop themselves. I'm sure there were some who did, but there were plenty who gave into the idea of rioting. Why would they do that? And why would some stop themselves? I find that very interesting.

I submit that there was a time when Canadian kids in that exact same situation would not have rioted. They would have simply walked away. It that such a crazy thought? And so, what's changed?

Edited September 17, 2013 by sharkman