Where did all the money go to Attawapiskat?

[PIK]

...

Edited January 8, 2013 by PIK

[Michael Hardner]

It covers that and the period since she's been chief. Nothing has improved under her tenure except her own lifestyle.

What's your basis for that assessment ? Did you read all 130 pages of the audit ?

[Michael Hardner]

Of course I feel there should be personal responsibility, good accounting practices, and ethical choices.

Then you should take the same approach with criticism of the current situation. If the FN have to do better at management, the least we can do is be careful in our criticism. Look on this thread of examples of people just saying whatever they feel like saying.

[Spiderfish]

Then you should take the same approach with criticism of the current situation.

I feel I have been very careful with my criticism of the situation. Which criticism do you feel was out of line?

[Michael Hardner]

What lack of cooperation? Really?

http://www.theglobea...article6995751/

Doesn't sound real cooperative to me.

They participated in the audit. So lack of cooperation isn't the issue. They didn`t comment on the audit, and called the leak for its blatant political nature. How is that not cooperating with the audit ?

[Smallc]

They didn't have a choice to cooperate on the audit.

[Michael Hardner]

So, PIK, Spiderfish, Westguy, jbg - I think - are comfortable with just accusing people of theft without evidence or mocking people. Mismanagement is one thing, and it's a serious thing, but outright theft is quite another. Maybe theft has happened, but it's something we should take seriously. I like jokes too, but in this case it's sad to me that you feel so comfortable in demanding others act more responsibly when you don't feel any obligation to do so yourself.

I just read the report and it's certainly not pretty, nor can the situation there be described as well managed. Furthermore, I think the heat and spotlight on this situation is a good thing. Why ? Because it looks to me like things are getting better and that this type of dialogue is resulting in improvement in the situation. If you read the report then you may see what I mean.

I applaud the Harper government for trying something different, but making changes is very difficult both in terms of managing change, and in managing the politics. If we're going to make the FN manage things more to our liking then we have an obligation to have reasonable expectations, and to communicate responsibly including acknowledging progress where it has happened.

Those of you who just want to punish and feel free to say whatever you like without recourse (sometimes the same people who oddly accuse others of crying racism at the drop of a hat) won't like this approach, but if the government and the FN can get through it, we have an obligation to support them as a responsible public.

[Michael Hardner]

They didn't have a choice to cooperate on the audit.

So you're saying Spiderfish's comment was nonsense ?

[Michael Hardner]

I feel I have been very careful with my criticism of the situation. Which criticism do you feel was out of line?

You haven't been abusive as some but when you say that someone didn't cooperate with an audit, that's a serious charge. That says that the accounting firm showed up and you refused to open your books - you denied them access.

I'm looking at this problem afresh and this is one of the factors I see as being part of this. My two cents only.

[Spiderfish]

So, PIK, Spiderfish, Westguy, jbg - I think - are comfortable with just accusing people of theft without evidence or mocking people. Mismanagement is one thing, and it's a serious thing, but outright theft is quite another. Maybe theft has happened, but it's something we should take seriously. I like jokes too, but in this case it's sad to me that you feel so comfortable in demanding others act more responsibly when you don't feel any obligation to do so yourself.

Since you're in the reading mood, maybe go back through this thread and review where I accused anyone of theft without evidence. Mismanagement, I agree with, lack of accountability, I agree with. Talk about accusing people without evidence.

[Spiderfish]

You haven't been abusive as some but when you say that someone didn't cooperate with an audit, that's a serious charge. That says that the accounting firm showed up and you refused to open your books - you denied them access.

I never said she denied them access to the books. Supporting documents were absent or deficient on 81% of the files. She may or may not have had anything to do with that, I don't know. It doesn't matter anyhow, the documentation does not exist. If I was being audited and most of my documentation was absent, I believe I would be asking the auditor how we can find solutions together to try and sort it out. All I am hearing from her is denial, excuses, and "this audit is nothing more than a distraction from the real issues of treaty rights". My observation is that that attitude is not helpful to the situation. Do you not agree?

[jbg]

So, PIK, Spiderfish, Westguy, jbg - I think - are comfortable with just accusing people of theft without evidence or mocking people. Mismanagement is one thing, and it's a serious thing, but outright theft is quite another.

I never accused her of theft. In fact I quite admire the prior band leader's choice of a Zamboni for the moneys the colonialist and paternalistic government designated for a school. And Las Vegas gambling profits can help the band.

[Michael Hardner]

Since you're in the reading mood, maybe go back through this thread and review where I accused anyone of theft without evidence.

I said 'or mocking people'. You 'piled on' when an irresponsible person posted that they were taking money to Las Vegas. I stand by it.

[Michael Hardner]

I never said she denied them access to the books.

What does `did not cooperate with audit` mean to you ?

All I am hearing from her is denial, excuses, and "this audit is nothing more than a distraction from the real issues of treaty rights". My observation is that that attitude is not helpful to the situation. Do you not agree?

I don't know what her objective, or her agenda is. It's probably political - stopping the Onmibus bill - and so it's politics vs politics - trying to control the agenda, muddying the waters, the usual.

With regards to the audit and the operations of the reserve you can say that she isn't responding to the findings of the audit, but the audit isn't the whole story either. Any real positives don't seem to be reported anyway.

[Moonbox]

I said 'or mocking people'. You 'piled on' when an irresponsible person posted that they were taking money to Las Vegas. I stand by it.

The Attawapiskat band is at the very least deserving of mockery. Not keeping books for moneys raised by taxpayers and spent by the band is indicative of at least a couple of the following:

-Gross Incompetence

-Contempt/Arrogance

-Corruption

You make the choice. Personally, I don't really care which of the following it is.

[Michael Hardner]

The Attawapiskat band is at the very least deserving of mockery.

What about your responsibility to criticize them responsibly ? Do you have one ?

[Boges]

Can we at least make fun of Spence's fake Hunger Strike?

[Canuckistani]

Can we at least make fun of Spence's fake Hunger Strike?

How about her victimized by the government stance?

Let's say all the money that's gone down the drain in reserves is all just because of incompetence, no malfeasance involved. We make fun of 2nd nation politicians for it, use some pretty harsh language. Why can't we do the same with 1st nations?

[Big Guy]

For years, one of the major demands from aboriginal leaders has been for full autonomy and the right for self government but with continued financial support from Canada. The government counter argument has been that not all native groups have the capacity and ability to adequately distribute and account for the monies. But – when the government suggests putting any band on a professional Canada based management system then the natives call that an infringement of their rights.

The responsibility of self governing includes the capability, desire and commitment to account for expenditure of all public monies. It also must support full transparency, consultation with the elected bodies and accountability to the source of the funding as well as the members of the community.

Unfortunately it appears that in this case, there just was not the expertise or the will to adequately keep track of expenditures. Even more unfortunately, it plays into that unfair and prejudicial excuse that “these natives are not too bright and waste anything we give them. They are like children who need someone educated to look after them and what they are given. The more money we send them then the more they will lose, waste or just plain mismanage”. This condescending view will continue until the leadership of the Six Nations develops some kind of supported self governing model that will provide professional native assistance for natives who govern small communities.

But I do understand that for a very large percentage of the aboriginal people the Six Nations leadership does not represent them.

Perhaps there will never be any solutions until the aboriginals decide on which organization or which elected or appointed structure represents ALL their views. Not much gets done when you have about a million people trying to speak with 600 different voices – each with its own agenda and each is striving to out shout the other.

Edited January 8, 2013 by Big Guy

[Michael Hardner]

Can we at least make fun of Spence's fake Hunger Strike?

You can do whatever you want. I'm not your parents. Maybe you're asking because you are sensing that everyone - including the Conservative government - is starting to mature a bit on this issue.

[Michael Hardner]

Why can't we do the same with 1st nations?

You can do whatever you like. And you can even act outraged when others complain about racism, or waste a single penny of your money, or don't respect your point of view. There's no question here that you are free to do whatever you like in this society.

[bush_cheney2004]

.....The responsibility of self governing includes the capability, desire and commitment to account for expenditure of all public monies. It also must support full transparency, consultation with the elected bodies and accountability to the source of the funding as well as the members of the community.

I am sure that the exact same fiduciary allegations can be made at Canada's federal, provincial, and local levels. Full transparency, consultation, and accountability for the expropriation and abuse of FN resources would also be nice.

[Boges]

You can do whatever you want. I'm not your parents. Maybe you're asking because you are sensing that everyone - including the Conservative government - is starting to mature a bit on this issue.

No I think a Hunger Strike, especially a fake one, is actually a very immature response to whatever ails the FN community. She's making it all about her and not the important issues at hand.

[ironstone]

It's been pointed out by Ezra Levant that on top of all the Federal money that pours into Attawapiskat,there has also been 325 million dollars from a De Beers mine in the last 5 years.There is such a foul stench coming from this whole affair.

[Michael Hardner]

No I think a Hunger Strike, especially a fake one, is actually a very immature response to whatever ails the FN community. She's making it all about her and not the important issues at hand.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Personally, I wouldn't feel that immature behavior on the part of those I'm criticizing gives me the right to accuse people of stealing money and flying to Vegas or joking about the situation. I think there is a time and place for ridicule. Maybe for you, this is it.