Where did all the money go to Attawapiskat?

[Michael Hardner]

For someone working 'in business', you seem to have a poor understanding of what an audit is.

Could be - I don't touch base with accounting very often.

Some of the older items literally have no explanation for them and the taxpayers are just supposed to take it on faith that whatever explanation is given is true. When we say that there are tens of millions of dollars that cannot be accounted for, that's literally, and factually exactly what we're looking at here.

I don't think you're supposed to take it on faith. I think the point is that there was an audit and it showed that the funds were mismanaged.

We're getting a little better still if we say tens of millions can't be accounted for - thank you.

Edited to add: I didn't really get what you were saying I missed about what an audit is, by the way.

[Michael Hardner]

How can someone have their eyes closed so tightly, I wonder?

Who are you talking about ?

[Michael Hardner]

For someone working 'in business', you seem to have a poor understanding of what an audit is.

So - let's compare to what you have stated here - you've stated that the leaders should be in jail, and also (?) stated that they replaced by a third party.

The government put the co-manager back in due to 'improvements' while they continued to fight the case for mismanagement in the courts - which they LOST.

Maybe I don't understand audits, but maybe you can explain how the government will achieve putting people in jail when they couldn't prove mismanagement. Maybe the audit will help them put in a 3rd party now. That would probably be a good result, providing they can get better project management in place AND do so without sparking a conflict.

Do you see ANYWHERE in my suggestions where I am saying that the FN managed things well ? That nothing should be done to improve the business functions of the government there ? No. I'm just saying, let's be specific and realistic about what needs to be done moving forward.

If we're going to criticize the FN people for living in cloud palaces, we should stand on the earth ourselves.

[Guest Manny]

I'm with Michael at this point, in general. Let's tone it down a bit. The question then to me becomes, yes, there's a problem but why all the inflammatory rhetoric?

I think the problem is real, but the scope of the problem is not huge. And give due process a chance, before we don the white gowns.

[Smallc]

There is no justification for $60M in expenses. That's pretty damning. You're both trying to be fair when there's nothing fair about this.

[Guest Manny]

There is no justification for $60M in expenses. That's pretty damning. You're both trying to be fair when there's nothing fair about this.

The law is fair. I hope...

Don't get me wrong, I'm just showing my disdain for the anti "Indian" troupe. If we want to avoid giving any substance to the charges of "Racist", and make a legitimate case here, we need to tell these people to shut up.

[Guest Manny]

That, and my friends the sense I get is that there is a lot more corruption, habitually, going on than the majority of us can even imagine. And that is why I say, there's more to this charge of racism than we're aware of. Because while its true we must fight corruption and make every dollar accountable, we turn a blind eye to it as a matter of course, all the time. All these people are saying is, "where's my slice of that rotten pie".

[Moonbox]

There's no evidence anything was hidden or spent on anything else. There's a slipshod effort in tracking expenses. Focusing on laying blame without any evidence is a waste of energy at this point. Furthermore, it will practically lead to a disintegration in whatever trust is left. The audit is done - we have evidence that things aren't being managed well - how can we move forward ? That's the pragmatic way forward.

There is no trust. When you're entrusted with that much money ($100M+) and you won't account properly for where over HALF of it was spent, despite numerous requests and warnings and literally flout common sense practises with spending public money, you forfeited that trust.

There's no specific evidence that money was stolen or hidden, you're right. There's also no evidence that it was spent properly either. That's the problem here. In the world of accounting and money tracking, the burden of proof lays on the person responsible for handling and disbursing the money. It's a responsibility to keep track of it. The Attawapiskat band did not do this, so there is literally ZERO way of knowing whether the $50-60M was stolen or misappropriated.

The monumental stupidity of the band (with Theresa Spence as Chief of Deputy Chief at the time) would in any other circumstances suggest either criminal incompetence/neglect or gross corruption. There is a fiduciary responsibility here that was blatantly ignored or wilfully abused and the more you read about this the more likely it looks that we're looking at gross corruption.

In what world is it appropriate that after discovering enormous accounting irregularities (a very bad and damning term in the accounting world), the co-manager imposed on the reserve ends up in a romantic relationship with its Chief, WHILE he's co-managing the reserve!?!? There was no conflict of interest he says!! Not only that, but he was earning +$150,000 a year with a CGA designation (something a monkey could get), while sleeping with the woman he was basically supposed to be watching over!

Edited January 9, 2013 by Moonbox

[Michael Hardner]

There is no justification for $60M in expenses. That's pretty damning. You're both trying to be fair when there's nothing fair about this.

There are degrees of 'fair'. I don't want to let them off the hook but calls for jail time are pretty ridiculous. If we're trying to improve the situation, and it has, at what point will be satisfied that it's enough ? The government and the public need to keep this on the radar for everyone's sake - not just the finances but the results - the improvements to peoples' lives.

[Michael Hardner]

There is no trust. When you're entrusted with that much money ($100M+) and you won't account properly for where over HALF of it was spent, despite numerous requests and warnings and literally flout common sense practises with spending public money, you forfeited that trust.

There is some trust there, clearly.

There's no specific evidence that money was stolen or hidden, you're right.

In what world is it appropriate that after discovering enormous accounting irregularities (a very bad and damning term in the accounting world), the co-manager imposed on the reserve ends up in a romantic relationship with its Chief,

I don`t think that`s appropriate either.

Look, thinking about this again it seems to me that you are expecting me to get upset with this situation - is that accuate ? If so, it's not going to happen. I have seen too much in the business and political world to be anything but jaded about seeing positive change happen. Instead, I take it as a personal responsibility to elevate the dialogue I participate in, and try to take satisfaction in that.

[Canuckistani]

You're talking about long-term change now and I think that working on the situation in Attawapiskat is a necessary first step.

Idle No More is about long term change. Attawapiskat is just another reserve - we've heard all this before, it just has more prominence because of Spence's hunger strike. Attawapiskat has new empty houses sitting there while people are living in shacks. It has 10 million in investments while crying the blues about no money for housing. It has boxes of donated stuff nobody can bother to open. There's no emergency here. The facts are coming out. Like 2.5 million spend on a project they weren't exactly sure what it was nor had they documentation for it. Just ignore them would be my solution, or take over management. What I hope the Idle No More movement will do is focus Canada's mind on the problem. I totally disagree with INM, but I hope it does shake Canada up to finally deal with this festering sore. My answer is assimilation, in the sense of no special status for FN's. Might meet a lot of opposition, but that's where I say some bottom lines have to be drawn. If we just always compromise, compromise, the situation will just fester for ever, because no way will Canada ever agree to the INM position.

[gunrutz]

The law is fair. I hope...

Don't get me wrong, I'm just showing my disdain for the anti "Indian" troupe. If we want to avoid giving any substance to the charges of "Racist", and make a legitimate case here, we need to tell these people to shut up.

A lot of you confuse racism with reality, anywhere else with this kind of mismanagement and we would all be outraged. Her own people don't have homes, they spend for example $200,000 on gifts, or $90,000 on a zamboni, they have millions in the bank, but they can't put roofs on houses, they had huge contracts with the mine, but don't make profits. Stop being an apologist, it only enables a broken system, fear of questioning and seeing these problems for what they are is not going to help the majority of native people.

[gunrutz]

Idle No More is about long term change. Attawapiskat is just another reserve - we've heard all this before, it just has more prominence because of Spence's hunger strike. Attawapiskat has new empty houses sitting there while people are living in shacks. It has 10 million in investments while crying the blues about no money for housing. It has boxes of donated stuff nobody can bother to open. There's no emergency here. The facts are coming out. Like 2.5 million spend on a project they weren't exactly sure what it was nor had they documentation for it. Just ignore them would be my solution, or take over management. What I hope the Idle No More movement will do is focus Canada's mind on the problem. I totally disagree with INM, but I hope it does shake Canada up to finally deal with this festering sore. My answer is assimilation, in the sense of no special status for FN's. Might meet a lot of opposition, but that's where I say some bottom lines have to be drawn. If we just always compromise, compromise, the situation will just fester for ever, because no way will Canada ever agree to the INM position.

The vast majority of native people i have spoken to think idle no more is about a complete gutting of the need for environmental impact assesments, which is patently false. They are being used in a political fight at the top of the first nation leadership and by the left wing as a weapon against the government. They have no idea what it exactly is they want.

[Spiderfish]

Well, we have the audit. That tells us what they know and what they don't. Documentation and receipts are not the same thing. Lack of receipts shows mismanagement, but not necessarily theft.

You keep bringing up theft, I never once accused anyone of theft. I am in agreement that this likely has mainly to do with mismanagement.

Who is he ?

I believe his name is Clayton Kennedy.

I think that's what 3rd party is.

I may be mistaken, but I was under the impression that the 3rd party manager was overseeing and controlling funding from the vendor. The actual management was still being controlled by the PM

Ok but projects are funded before they start and documentation happens throughout. And you will have to go to court to impose a solution. I agree that getting them help is the key - how to do that without causing a fight is the challenge. Unless you want a fight.

Vendor funding is a process that has inputs and outputs, just like all processes within project management. If the inputs are not achieved, the process fails. Why funding has been allowed under the current structure without the required inputs is a mystery to me, and falls outside of normal project management procedures. Regardless, I don't think a defense would stand up in court. It's not about starting a fight, it's about providing required inputs to support the process.

Edited January 9, 2013 by Spiderfish

[Moonbox]

There is some trust there, clearly.

Not really. There's more a policy of appeasement than anything.

Look, thinking about this again it seems to me that you are expecting me to get upset with this situation - is that accuate ? If so, it's not going to happen. I have seen too much in the business and political world to be anything but jaded about seeing positive change happen. Instead, I take it as a personal responsibility to elevate the dialogue I participate in, and try to take satisfaction in that.

I couldn't care less about what sort of emotions you express about the situation. I'm merely trying to point out that most of what you're saying is just political-speak and fluff. "Elevate the dialogue" might sound good to you, but it means absolutely nothing.

Theresa Spence and her band are protesting outside Parliament about the apathy and terrible treatment they're receiving , yet her band has grossly mismanaged the funding sent to them and can't account for where most of it was spent. Maybe it wasn't enough money. Maybe it was. Maybe they stole and misappropriated it, maybe they didn't. Nobody knows. All we do know is that she and her band are either colosally incompetent or completely untrustworthy, and that any dialogue with such a creature is bound to be fruitless. If that reserve wants any sort of meaningful dialogue, they need to find better representatives.

[Guest Manny]

My answer is assimilation, in the sense of no special status for FN's. Might meet a lot of opposition, but that's where I say some bottom lines have to be drawn. If we just always compromise, compromise, the situation will just fester for ever.

Thanks for making your position quite clear.

[Guest Manny]

Maybe they stole and misappropriated it, maybe they didn't. Nobody knows. All we do know is that she and her band are either colosally incompetent or completely untrustworthy, and that any dialogue with such a creature is bound to be fruitless. If that reserve wants any sort of meaningful dialogue, they need to find better representatives.

Use of "creature" is dis-ingenious because it furthers the argument you are racially biased.

All we know is that her band is either incompetent or untrustworthy, and so probably are the overseers of this project, either the government or a third party organization working on their behalf.

Do I think corruption has happened here? Sure.

What I'm trying to say is, follow the money. What some of you are trying to say is, follow the arrow heads.

[Michael Hardner]

Idle No More is about long term change. ... I totally disagree with INM, but I hope it does shake Canada up to finally deal with this festering sore. My answer is assimilation, in the sense of no special status for FN's. Might meet a lot of opposition, but that's where I say some bottom lines have to be drawn. If we just always compromise, compromise, the situation will just fester for ever, because no way will Canada ever agree to the INM position.

"A lot of opposition" ... yes, even that is an understatement. Well, I think it would be great to have a prosperous and fully assimilated FN people within Canada, if they wanted that.

How to achieve that politically (there are a significant number if not majority of Canadians who would be against forcing that issue) and practically (avoiding violence) and legally (constitution change) is more than just a question.

It appears you have your own dream palace.

[Michael Hardner]

Stop being an apologist, it only enables a broken system, fear of questioning and seeing these problems for what they are is not going to help the majority of native people.

How is Manny being an apologist ? If you want your suggestions to be taken seriously then use your words judiciously.

[Michael Hardner]

You keep bringing up theft, I never once accused anyone of theft. I am in agreement that this likely has mainly to do with mismanagement.

Ok - sorry to confuse you but I`m debating with like 5 people on this thread.

I believe his name is Clayton Kennedy.

He`s a co-manager - an accountant from the credentials I read. Not a project manager.

I may be mistaken, but I was under the impression that the 3rd party manager was overseeing and controlling funding from the vendor. The actual management was still being controlled by the PM

Yes, Kennedy is the co-manager. You called for an 'independent' manager or somesuch to come in - and I was pointing out that that is what a 3rd party is, and that it was tried and un-tried etc. etc. Maybe they can/will try again. Maybe they will have to as they have evidently (from this thread) stirred up so much anger from their base that they will have to take more drastic action.

Vendor funding is a process that has inputs and outputs, just like all processes within project management.

Vendor management is a subset of project management. You said "refuse funding to projects that don't have supporting documents". It's confusing because the audit is about lack of supporting documents, i.e. receipts, but projects are funded at the outset based on project documents such as a charter, project plan, etc.

If the inputs are not achieved, the process fails. Why funding has been allowed under the current structure without the required inputs is a mystery to me, and falls outside of normal project management procedures.

There's funding to the band, and funding to the projects. As I said, it was just allowed to happen.

The government didn't ask any more of the Attawapiskat leadership, evidently.

Regardless, I don't think a defense would stand up in court. It's not about starting a fight, it's about providing required inputs to support the process.

[Michael Hardner]

http://www.samuelhaw...leyscastle.html

Taking the Hunger out of Hunger Striking

Hi Hawley - please note that you're not allowed to post entire material (blogs, articles) from other sites here, and also you're expected to add your own comments to further the discussion.

[PIK]

. The facts are there, but it is crap like spence is doing that tries to confuse the situation. She knew in august the shit was going to hit the fan and she needed to build up a fan base before it did, and hunger strikes will do it. Now she is going to snub harper, and IMO the only reason for that is she will have no protection from inquiring minds. The native have to quit blaming the white man and admit they have major problems themselves and to clean up thier own mess 1st. Then we have to get rid of this myth of the noble redman protector of the land. When the white man showed up they were living in the stone age, and they were killing raping and performing genocdal acts against each other. And where in the world do you see native people being given what they have been given over the decades, only to piss it up against the wall, no where. And this idea that have to they live on their traditional lands and keep thier way of life, well drugs and acohol is not there tradional way lof living, they need to join the rest of the country, the old days are over

[Moonbox]

Use of "creature" is dis-ingenious because it furthers the argument you are racially biased.

I couldn't care less what you think that word means. I used it because I wanted to avoid something like piece of s***. If anyone wants to try and make that argument, they are free to make the attempt, but I'll assure them I use the same sort of language for anyone public service who abuses their public responsibilities, which the Attawapiskat band clearly did.

All we know is that her band is either incompetent or untrustworthy, and so probably are the overseers of this project, either the government or a third party organization working on their behalf.

No. We know that both she and the band are incompetent and/or untrustworthy, and that the co-manager she was assigned is also untrustworthy for engaging in a romantic relationship with the chief of the organization he was supposed to be overseeing. Anything beyond that is pure conjecture that you're throwing in here to confuse things.

Do I think corruption has happened here? Sure.

What I'm trying to say is, follow the money. What some of you are trying to say is, follow the arrow heads.

Don't even try and pull that sort of bullshit. You're the only one who's trying to bring race into the discussion, and you keep doing it over and over and over again. You seem intent on diverting the discussion in that direction, perhaps to distract us from the money trail, but let's stick to that shall we. Money went to Attawapiskat. Over half of it virtually disappeared.

[PIK]

So, PIK, Spiderfish, Westguy, jbg - I think - are comfortable with just accusing people of theft without evidence or mocking people. Mismanagement is one thing, and it's a serious thing, but outright theft is quite another. Maybe theft has happened, but it's something we should take seriously. I like jokes too, but in this case it's sad to me that you feel so comfortable in demanding others act more responsibly when you don't feel any obligation to do so yourself.

I just read the report and it's certainly not pretty, nor can the situation there be described as well managed. Furthermore, I think the heat and spotlight on this situation is a good thing. Why ? Because it looks to me like things are getting better and that this type of dialogue is resulting in improvement in the situation. If you read the report then you may see what I mean.

I applaud the Harper government for trying something different, but making changes is very difficult both in terms of managing change, and in managing the politics. If we're going to make the FN manage things more to our liking then we have an obligation to have reasonable expectations, and to communicate responsibly including acknowledging progress where it has happened.

Those of you who just want to punish and feel free to say whatever you like without recourse (sometimes the same people who oddly accuse others of crying racism at the drop of a hat) won't like this approach, but if the government and the FN can get through it, we have an obligation to support them as a responsible public.

Because the facts are there, put the same situation into a town or city and people would be in jail. But like alot of people on the left , you just can't come out and say it, to scared to offend someone and of course your white mans quilt is off the scale.

[Michael Hardner]

Now she is going to snub harper, and IMO the only reason for that is she will have no protection from inquiring minds.

I don't think so - I think it's just tit-for-tat politics.

The native have to quit blaming the white man and admit they have major problems themselves and to clean up thier own mess 1st.

Not going to happen. Starting a fight over identity, or criticizing another culture isn't going to happen, nor would it lead to productive engagement.