Where did all the money go to Attawapiskat?

[TimG]

I'm just going to point out that the audit covers a period of time before she was chief.

Perhaps Spence is not to blame for all of it - but she is the one with a megaphone blaming the government for not sending enough money, If she had any integrity she would have acknowledged that prior administrators mishandled the money prior to the audit.

[Michael Hardner]

You can't attach conditions though, as soon as you do your accused of colonialism and repressing FN people and branded a racist.

This is a pretty lame charge, as conditions are attached - as they should be. "Your accused of colonialism and branded a racist" by whom ? There are always people who make false accusations, and it doesn't and shouldn't impact policy. On the other side, there are also people who make errors of fact, or assume that mismanagement means millions have been stolen although that is far from being proven.

What I'm saying here is that this issue needs more responsible dialogue on both sides.

I've even seen people throw around the word genocide recently...ridiculous. Native leaders are even saying that keeping records of spending goes against their ways as a people and is a form of control against them. They want their funding with no strings attached and no questions asked; anything less is unacceptable to them.

I think that co-management and audits are the practice right now. I'm hoping that that helps elevate the dialogue somewhat.

But really, beyond accounting, better project management is what is needed here.

[Michael Hardner]

Perhaps Spence is not to blame for all of it - but she is the one with a megaphone blaming the government for not sending enough money, If she had any integrity she would have acknowledged that prior administrators mishandled the money prior to the audit.

Yes, her unilateral blaming of the situation on others speaks to her base unfortunately.

[Spiderfish]

I'm just going to point out that the audit covers a period of time before she was chief.

Irrelevant...she has been anything but cooperative in getting to the bottom of the problem. Regardless of what period this covers and who was in charge, she has only contributed to the negligence and offered nothing in the way of help.

[Michael Hardner]

Irrelevant...she has been anything but cooperative in getting to the bottom of the problem.

It's not irrelevant - she is also being blamed for things that happened when she wasn't chief. How's that irrelevant ? The government is doing a good job of playing to prejudices, even if things have been mismanaged they're making it look even worse IMO.

[TimG]

It's not irrelevant - she is also being blamed for things that happened when she wasn't chief.

If she did not want to get blamed she should have cooperated with the government who had good reasons to believe more oversight was needed. By conspiring to cover up the problems she now deserves blame for them.

[Spiderfish]

This is a pretty lame charge, as conditions are attached - as they should be. "Your accused of colonialism and branded a racist" by whom ? There are always people who make false accusations, and it doesn't and shouldn't impact policy. On the other side, there are also people who make errors of fact, or assume that mismanagement means millions have been stolen although that is far from being proven.

By FN leaders and sympathetic parties. I heard a radio interview the other day with Pamela Palmater, a law professor at Ryerson University, and a member of a New Brunswick First Nations band who ran for the leadership of the Assembly of First Nations who basically used those exact words.

What I'm saying here is that this issue needs more responsible dialogue on both sides.

I wouldn't hold your breath...

I think that co-management and audits are the practice right now. I'm hoping that that helps elevate the dialogue somewhat.

But really, beyond accounting, better project management is what is needed here.

Unfortunately, the current Project Manager is apparently sleeping with the boss, his job appears pretty secure.

Edited January 8, 2013 by Spiderfish

[scribblet]

I wonder if she regrets this, even as she gets into the limo to be taken to her hotel...

The real source of the protest movement including Spence is the accountability legislation, something under reported by the media. If the Chiefs are handed a much larger slice of the pie and the accountability question is dropped, the movement will be dropped.

Maybe we can start our own - "apathy no more"

There's an excellent article here from 2011 speaking about the conservatives have done with land claims etc. also under reported.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/08/05/john-ivison-reform-of-aboriginal-land-claims-conservative-success-story/

[Spiderfish]

It's not irrelevant - she is also being blamed for things that happened when she wasn't chief. How's that irrelevant ? The government is doing a good job of playing to prejudices, even if things have been mismanaged they're making it look even worse IMO.

She didn't go on a diet to protest the lack of cooperation with the auditor.

What about the stock room full of aid and supplies, space heaters, smoke detectors, etc. that was sent to them that didn't get handed out? What about the half dozen brand new homes that are sitting vacant while the people next door freeze? Who are we going to blame for that?

Change has to come from within, and with her in charge resisting all forms of change, the people on that reserve have no chance to make things better.

Edited January 8, 2013 by Spiderfish

[Michael Hardner]

If she did not want to get blamed she should have cooperated with the government who had good reasons to believe more oversight was needed. By conspiring to cover up the problems she now deserves blame for them.

Covering up the problems by appealing the ministry decision on 3rd party management ? If not, then what specifically do you mean by covering up ? I don't think it's fair to blame her for those past mistakes just because she wants to keep managing things. That would be like blaming new governments for past problems that they are pledging to fix.

[Michael Hardner]

Michael Hardner, on 08 January 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

What I'm saying here is that this issue needs more responsible dialogue on both sides.

I wouldn't hold your breath...

What are your feelings about personal responsibility ? Do you think that people have an obligation to do their best to make the system work ? Do you think that the FN people have an obligation to do their best to manage finances, do diligent reporting and keep on top of things ? Do you think leaders have a responsibility to be careful with their words and accusations ?

What are our responsibilities then as members of a public on MLW ?

Unfortunately, the current Project Manager is apparently sleeping with the boss, his job appears pretty secure.

And none of this would be an issue if all sides were satisfied with the progress that's happening.

[Michael Hardner]

The real source of the protest movement including Spence is the accountability legislation, something under reported by the media.

Thanks for posting that link - it was somewhat helpful. What is the accountability legislation you're referring to, specifically ?

[Michael Hardner]

She didn't go on a diet to protest the lack of cooperation with the auditor.

What lack of cooperation, specifically ?

What about the stock room full of aid and supplies, space heaters, smoke detectors, etc. that was sent to them that didn't get handed out? What about the half dozen brand new homes that are sitting vacant while the people next door freeze? Who are we going to blame for that?

I don't know. Are you saying that because they screwed up on this that it's all ok to blame her for things that aren't her fault ?

If we're going to start getting specific about things, then we should be precise too. It's hypocritical to blame them for exaggeration and falsehood if we throw around similar charges.

[Guest Manny]

What are our responsibilities then as members of a public on MLW ?

To learn about it, find out who is accountable and publicly call them out.

By the way Moonbox, I am not "out of touch with reality" as you so boldly claim without knowing jack shit about me. I've worked in an office that's funded by public money for decades. I know how the accounting system works, and there are many reporting rules, and levels of authorization to sign for expensive purchases. That's a no brainer, for those in touch with reality. And that's how it should be done.

[Spiderfish]

What are your feelings about personal responsibility ? Do you think that people have an obligation to do their best to make the system work ? Do you think that the FN people have an obligation to do their best to manage finances, do diligent reporting and keep on top of things ? Do you think leaders have a responsibility to be careful with their words and accusations ?

Of course I feel there should be personal responsibility, good accounting practices, and ethical choices. But we'll never get there with the current attitude. I think the government is trying to do the right thing but is hitting a brick wall when it comes to accountability. We can demand better accountability all we want, but nothing will change until we address the issue that FN can not be held to a different standard.

And none of this would be an issue if all sides were satisfied with the progress that's happening.

But that's not the case, and here we are.

[Spiderfish]

What lack of cooperation, specifically ?

I don't know. Are you saying that because they screwed up on this that it's all ok to blame her for things that aren't her fault ?

If we're going to start getting specific about things, then we should be precise too. It's hypocritical to blame them for exaggeration and falsehood if we throw around similar charges.

What lack of cooperation? Really?

http://www.theglobea...article6995751/

“An average of 81 per cent of files did not have adequate supporting documents and over 60 per cent had no documentation of the reason for payment,” he wrote.

When asked Monday about the audit, Ms. Spence’s spokesman, Danny Metatawabin said neither he nor the chief would make any comment. “We have bigger issues here with respect to our treaty rights,” said Mr. Metatawabin.

Ms. Spence said in a statement on Monday afternoon that the release of the audit,which was completed in September, was nothing more than a distraction aimed at discrediting her and her cause.

Doesn't sound real cooperative to me.

Edited January 8, 2013 by Spiderfish

[westguy]

and the beat of greed and corruption goes on....

[Moonbox]

By the way Moonbox, I am not "out of touch with reality" as you so boldly claim without knowing jack shit about me. I've worked in an office that's funded by public money for decades. I know how the accounting system works, and there are many reporting rules, and levels of authorization to sign for expensive purchases. That's a no brainer, for those in touch with reality. And that's how it should be done.

and yet you still said:

Without records, the people in charge of watching records should get fired first.

That really doesn't make a lot of sense, especially in the context of subsidizing First Nations reserves. The people who are held responsible first for mismanagement and/or fraud are the people who should have caught it earlier? Sorry, but no. The people who are entrusted with the money are the ones responsible for its use/misuse. If proper oversight wasn't being done, the auditors might be held responsible for that, as was Arthur Anderson over their failure to properly audit Enron years ago. In the case of Attawapiskat, however, it was long known that they weren't keeping proper records, but there was little action the government could take against them.

You can't cut off funding for a barely surviving community in northern Ontario. The government tried to impose third-party management, but that was struck down. There aren't a lot of options here, but at least now the band's galling arrogance, hypocrisy, incompetence and/or corruption is out in the open and will come back to bite them in the ass. I'd suspect the Idle no More protest, and Theresa Spence's hunger strike start experiencing some headwinds in public opinion moving forward.

Edited January 8, 2013 by Moonbox

[westguy]

where did the money go - likely on fiorst class tickets to Vegas

[Argus]

People wonder why these audits didn't trigger some governmental action? Because these audits didn't reveal anything abnormal or surprising. This is the way many 'first nations' operate.

Back in the days of Jean Chrétien’s government, I recall talking to a very senior player about the issue of accountability on first nation reserves. The Canadian Alliance was probing the matter, and there were allegations, nothing too specific, about spending abuses. Money disappearing down a black hole, that kind of thing. Raising it with the Chrétien official, I recall being surprised when he said there was a basis for many of the allegations. It was a potentially a major scandal, he said. So why, I asked, was no one probing it? Too sensitive, he said. “We’d be accused of racism.”

Edited January 8, 2013 by Argus

[Argus]

I'm just going to point out that the audit covers a period of time before she was chief.

It covers that and the period since she's been chief. Nothing has improved under her tenure except her own lifestyle.

[Rocky Road]

This article definately relates to the content of this thread.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/dear-canada-first-nations-dont-want-to-be-wards-of-the-state/article7028879/

"I am the chief of the Whispering Pines/Clinton Indian Band. Our reserves are located near Kamloops and Clinton, B.C., and our community strongly supports the proposal for first nation property ownership legislation, a position which some in the Idle No More movement have criticized."

[jbg]

where did the money go - likely on fiorst class tickets to Vegas

If that's the case hopefully the profits went to build a school or at least purchase a Zamboni.

[Spiderfish]

If that's the case hopefully the profits went to build a school or at least purchase a Zamboni.

I believe gambling profits attained in the US are tax free...uh, wait...never mind.

[PIK]

Perhaps Spence is not to blame for all of it - but she is the one with a megaphone blaming the government for not sending enough money, If she had any integrity she would have acknowledged that prior administrators mishandled the money prior to the audit.

Or she was next in line to line her pockets, and then the shit hit the fan. There is alway someone left holding the bag. I went 2 weeks without solid food, she is eating.