Where did all the money go to Attawapiskat?

[Michael Hardner]

What do you mean it might be relevant if someone were trying to excuse the FN leadership for mismanagement?That is EXACTLY what the Teresa Spence supporters are doing!

Well - they're trying to excuse themselves, right ? That's pretty much universal human behavior when accused I think.

How can anyone with an ounce of intelligence look at the results of this audit and not admit that there is something horribly wrong here?

Exactly. My questions then are: what are we hoping to change, how will we make it happen, what happens if it doesn't happen and so on. With a problem of this size, you have to be pragmatic don't you agree ?

There's a lot of general groaning about the FN people, with a lot of sloppy accusations thrown in that aren't true - that's my main complaint.

[Moonbox]

Although they did try it, there are other ways to take a hard line if they want to. In any case, I'm just asking you Moonbox if you think that's what should be done.

To start, reserves like Attawapiskat need to have their band replaced and third party management in the near term of their finances. Further oversight (auditing) of the books on problem reserves needs to be taken. In the long term, the reserve system needs to be dismantled because it's completely broken and works on a flawed premise and has been proven unworkable throughout history.

? Right - exactly what I said - you believe them to be beyond redemption.

Under the current reserve system? Absolutely. I do not believe there is a chance in hell that any people, from any creed/race/religion, First Nations or not, that would thrive under the current system. It's a system that's doomed to fail and that will encourage the culture of outrage and defeatism for as long as it's in place.

You think the FN can`t manage itself.

The improvements that happen aren`t enough to be acknowledged.

You think they there needs to be more meaningful consequences for what they have done so far.

Is that fair ? Ok - so what then ? What do you think should be done next ?

No. I think Attawapiskat's band specifically can't be trusted to manage itself, because it's been proven to be untrustworthy. The improvements that have been made were not voluntary, and were not made in the spirit of cooperation, but rather because they were forced and overseen by the government. Not being able to account for $100M of taxpayer's money is gross negligence on a colossally stupid scale at best and in any other circumstances would be cause for criminal charges. The members of the band council responsible at the time should be in jail. They will not not face any consequences because they are First Nations, however, and without consequences, human nature will assert itself and we will have this sort of thing continue to happen for as long as things remain the way they are. The worst part is that they know this and happily throw it in our faces. See Theresa Spence's protest. Whether she was responsible for it or not, she knows very well that her band royally f****d things up and yet she's still out there protesting about...who the hell knows what!?

Edited January 9, 2013 by Moonbox

[DogOnPorch]

No reporters allowed in Attawapiskat. Spense orders Global off reserve.

http://www.globalnational.com/global+news+crew+threatened+with+arrest+in+attawapiskat/6442784553/story.html

[Michael Hardner]

To start, reserves like Attawapiskat need to have their band replaced and third party management in the near term of their finances.

You should read the timeline of last year to see how that turned out.

Further oversight (auditing) of the books on problem reserves needs to be taken. In the long term, the reserve system needs to be dismantled because it's completely broken and works on a flawed premise and has been proven unworkable throughout history.

That sounds interesting. How would that work ?

. I think Attawapiskat's band specifically can't be trusted to manage itself, because it's been proven to be untrustworthy. The improvements that have been made were not voluntary, and were not made in the spirit of cooperation, but rather because they were forced and overseen by the government. Not being able to account for $100M of taxpayer's money is gross negligence on a colossally stupid scale at best and in any other circumstances would be cause for criminal charges.

Ok. You're misstating what the audit found but I get what you're saying.

The members of the band council responsible at the time should be in jail.

This is not as bad as government boondoggles where nobody faced any penalty, not even losing an election. They didn't have documentation for half of the transactions in the sample. Mismanagement, for sure, but jail time is too much IMO.

What realistically do you think should happen next, then ?

[Michael Hardner]

No reporters allowed in Attawapiskat. Spense orders Global off reserve.

http://www.globalnat...4553/story.html

That's a pretty amateurish way to try cover up incompetence. Let's see how the Government responds.

I was thinking about something else tonight - they could have passed the audit with flying colours and still be failing and incompetent at executing these projects. Global is right to focus on the housing - that's what is important here.

[Moonbox]

Ok. You're misstating what the audit found but I get what you're saying.

What about it am I misstating? Millions of dollars are completely unaccounted for. Either they have no idea where it went at all, or how the decision was made, or how much it actually cost OR they don't want to say.

This is not as bad as government boondoggles where nobody faced any penalty, not even losing an election. They didn't have documentation for half of the transactions in the sample. Mismanagement, for sure, but jail time is too much IMO.

What realistically do you think should happen next, then ?

First off, I'm no less outraged by government boondoggles. I could give you a long list of federal civil servants and politicians who should be in jail right now.

This is very different though. The amount of money unaccounted for in the Attawapiskat's books are on the same sort of scale we'd be horrified at on a provincial or even national scale. The band in charge of a community of 2000 people can't account for tens of millions of dollars. If they'd misplaced a couple of hundred thousands, that would be bad enough, but TENS OF MILLIONS? FOR TWO THOUSAND PEOPLE!?!?

It's one thing for $50M to go missing in something as big as the the Ontario Health Ministry (still deserving of jail IMO) where small errors can accumulate to a larger scale, or where one department has no idea what the other is doing, but for it to go missing on a tiny reserve governed by a handful of people? F*** no. Something is SERIOUSLY wrong there.

Edited January 9, 2013 by Moonbox

[Canuckistani]

Jeez, Michael, you'll take on anybody here, won't you? Somebody says we have to be tough and you counter with "that won't work and just create conflict." Somebody else says we have to deal with them, and you counter with "why, we could just be tough." The only position you seem to take is that people are putting out a lot of misinformation, as if you are the source of all truth. Is that supposed to be your role here, or is this just what you do? Maybe it's helpful if a topic is pretty dead, but this one is very lively, tho certainly tilted against the Native position. I find what you do interferes with the discussion, personally, because it just seems to shift the ground of the discussion for every post.

I agree we need to be pragmatic. I have no idea what pragmatism would be in this case. I think Canada needs to be pretty tough here, that that is the pragmatic choice because otherwise I worry about our long term future. What kind of country are we where people, because of their race are given special privileges for ever? I think that just corrodes the whole idea of Canada. Pragmatism might say we should be willing to spend some big bucks to compensate the natives for what they've lost, but only if it means extinguishment of any further special status or privileges. You can say pragmatically the natives won't go for it, but I just don't think we can keep playing this game of bribe the natives to be quiet. It will never be enough. We do have to draw a bottom line. Sovereignty of Canada and equality of it's citizens before the law.

[Michael Hardner]

What about it am I misstating? Millions of dollars are completely unaccounted for. Either they have no idea where it went at all, or how the decision was made, or how much it actually cost OR they don't want to say.

Well, they have an accountant - the co-manager - so the issue is not that they can't account for transactions and certainly not that millions of dollars are unaccounted for. It's also untrue that they have no idea where it all went. Where did you get that ?

First off, I'm no less outraged by government boondoggles. I could give you a long list of federal civil servants and politicians who should be in jail right now.

Ok, fair enough. They're not going to go to jail either, though.

This is very different though. The amount of money unaccounted for in the Attawapiskat's books are on the same sort of scale we'd be horrified at on a provincial or even national scale. The band in charge of a community of 2000 people can't account for tens of millions of dollars. If they'd misplaced a couple of hundred thousands, that would be bad enough, but TENS OF MILLIONS? FOR TWO THOUSAND PEOPLE!?!?

So, they were put on notice last year, and since then things have improved. I think a lot of the problem with your approach is that it's based on a misunderstanding with what has happened. By no means are they unable to account for millions of dollars.

I'm still wondering this: What realistically do you think should happen next, then ?

Again:

The government tried to prove mismanagement last year and failed, and furthermore they themselves went back to co-management after things improved. So 3rd party management seems highly unlikely, and jail even less so.

[Smallc]

Well, they have an accountant - the co-manager - so the issue is not that they can't account for transactions and certainly not that millions of dollars are unaccounted for. It's also untrue that they have no idea where it all went. Where did you get that ?

Where are you getting this? They have no justification for where the money went. That means no one has any idea why it was spent, or even where it was spent beyond the line item level for 60% of the band's finances. In essence, they don't know what happened to $62M. For another $21M, they have very little idea.

Edited January 9, 2013 by Smallc

[Boges]

No mention yet of the Global News team that was kicked off the reserve yesterday?

Less than a week after being the media's darling, Chief Spence has gone into Operation Shutdown.

She knows there'll likely be some sort of scrum on Friday and the media will likely be asking her about the audit, especially now that she refuses to talk about it.

[Michael Hardner]

Jeez, Michael, you'll take on anybody here, won't you? Somebody says we have to be tough and you counter with "that won't work and just create conflict."

I work in business, and as such I think plans and discussions need to be realistic.

As much as MLW posters here dismiss the poor business practices of Attawapiskat's local government, I also dismiss the poor knowledge of how the system works here, the smug accusations that theft has happened, or 'solutions' to the problem that involve jailing people. Don't ever confuse my criticism of those off-the-cuff solutions with a willingness to do nothing, or me siding with local government that everything is fine.

So, about precision, what does "we have to be tough" mean is my question ?

To my mind, the government did get tough: they made some kind of ham-fisted attempt to fix things and it failed overall but the local government seems to have picked up their socks somewhat. I think it would be good for the government to give some positive enforcement for good management, and to try to work behind the scenes to get more help (co-management) to the local government.

The government people also need to stop focusing on accounting so much, and start focusing on project management. If the local managers had receipts for everything then they would have passed the audit with flying colours but that says nothing about whether money was well spent, or whether a single home was built.

We also have this political streetfight happening right now, over the Omnibus bill, so the government needs to be very careful with the politics.

Somebody else says we have to deal with them, and you counter with "why, we could just be tough." The only position you seem to take is that people are putting out a lot of misinformation, as if you are the source of all truth.

Ha ha ha... the source of truth is there. You can read it yourself, or you can read what the media interprets out of it. Or you can read my posts.

Is that supposed to be your role here, or is this just what you do?

My role ? No - I'm just a poster here with regards to this discussion. After 12+ years posting on political boards my position is that 90% of people just fall in with their political mates and don't try to think about alternative ways to get to a solution.

As such, people would say I'm liberal but I also see value in conservative attempts to approach problems differently (Mike Harris, workfare; George W. Bush, Democracy in Iraq; Harper, changes to FN arrangements) even as their initiatives initially fall flat.

Maybe it's helpful if a topic is pretty dead, but this one is very lively, tho certainly tilted against the Native position. I find what you do interferes with the discussion, personally, because it just seems to shift the ground of the discussion for every post.

How does it interfere with the discussion ? I'm surprised to read that. If I'm challenging easy assumptions, and unsettling dug-in positions I see that as a good thing. If it weren't for posts like mine, IMO, we'd be arguing the same tired positions and to my mind not making any progress.

It would be "The natives have been abused" vs "The natives are irresponsible" all over again. Harper's government isn't taking either of those tacks either, so I say we support change with positive dialogue on MLW.

I agree we need to be pragmatic. I have no idea what pragmatism would be in this case. I think Canada needs to be pretty tough here, that that is the pragmatic choice because otherwise I worry about our long term future. What kind of country are we where people, because of their race are given special privileges for ever?

I'm nothing if not pragmatic. You're talking about long-term change now and I think that working on the situation in Attawapiskat is a necessary first step.

[Michael Hardner]

Where are you getting this? They have no justification for where the money went.

From the audit.

That means no one has any idea why it was spent, or even where it was spent beyond the line item level for 60% of the band's finances. In essence, they don't know what happened to $62M. For another $21M, they have very little idea.

Unless I misunderstood the audit completely (and that might be the case) the problem is that they didn't have supporting documentation not that they didn't know where it went.

[Smallc]

From the audit.

Unless I misunderstood the audit completely (and that might be the case) the problem is that they didn't have supporting documentation not that they didn't know where it went.

That's the point - without justification and documentation, no one knows for certain where the money went.

[TimG]

Unless I misunderstood the audit completely (and that might be the case) the problem is that they didn't have supporting documentation not that they didn't know where it went.

I think you are being misled by the understated tone of the auditors report. Obviously, when you have 60% of the transactions with no record of who got the money and the most reasonable assumption is that a lot of the money was misspent, if not stolen. Unfortunately, the lack of documentation means there is no conclusive evidences of malfeasance so the auditors refrain from making accusations. That restraint does not mean that malfeasance did not occur - in fact - the chances of it not occurring is next to zero.

Compare this to the Gazebo incident with the G20 spending. We know that money was misspent because the federal government did keep records. Are you really arguing that worse abuses did not occur at the band? If so you are extremely gullible.

Edited January 9, 2013 by TimG

[Spiderfish]

Well, they have an accountant - the co-manager - so the issue is not that they can't account for transactions and certainly not that millions of dollars are unaccounted for. It's also untrue that they have no idea where it all went.

Not necessarily, we don't really know what they know or what they don't. We know that there is no record or the records are deficient. Any competent PM knows that if it's not written down, it might as well not exist. Documentation is everything, what you can confirm and verify is everything. What you 'know' has zero value if you can't back it up.

As for what should be done now, I think it's obvious that the current Project Manager is completely incompetent. Get rid of him. Forget third party management, bring in an independent PM, it's the only way to ensure that things will be managed properly. It's either that or refuse funding to any projects that don't have proper supporting documents. The council is not going to like either of these options, but we tried it their way...it didn't work.

Edited January 9, 2013 by Spiderfish

[Boges]

So because they were completely reckless by not even saying who got the money, they can say there is no proof of any corruption.

I'd say this is brilliant. I'm going to do stuff like this on my next income tax return, I'm sure the CRA will be cool with it right?

Edited January 9, 2013 by Boges

[Michael Hardner]

no one knows for certain where the money went.

Yes, that's a much better way to put this. I would actually even submit - nobody can absolutely prove where the money went.

[TimG]

I would actually even submit - nobody can absolutely prove where the money went.

And given that lack of information the only reasonable assumption is that large amounts of the money were spent on things that it should not have been spent on. There is absolutely no reason to believe that 'honest' people would have worked so hard to deliberately hide the money trail. Edited January 9, 2013 by TimG

[Michael Hardner]

I think you are being misled by the understated tone of the auditors report.

'understated tone' is nonsense. They are auditors - they report the facts, period. Tone is for emotional activities. Similar to science - there's no soul-searching, weeping, what have you. In fact, I would posit that the introduction to the report has hints that the auditors were framing the report in a way to please their masters politically.

Obviously, when you have 60% of the transactions with no record of who got the money and the most reasonable assumption is that a lot of the money was misspent, if not stolen.

That's a falsehood. Some of these items are for work that was done - you can interview people, see if work was done etc. Reasonable assumption is not that it was misspent, that's jumping to a conclusion. If an audit of Enron, what have you shows improper documentation they are not charged with theft.

Unfortunately, the lack of documentation means there is no conclusive evidences of malfeasance so the auditors refrain from making accusations. That restraint does not mean that malfeasance did not occur - in fact - the chances of it not occurring is next to zero.

Where in your experience do you have auditors making 'accusations' ? They have done their job - shown where there is missing documentation - they are not biting their lip to refrain from screaming accusations about people.

Compare this to the Gazebo incident with the G20 spending. We know that money was misspent because the federal government did keep records. Are you really arguing that worse abuses did not occur at the band? If so you are extremely gullible.

Do we know that they kept records ? The government didn't audit itself as far as I remember.

And once again - NO - I am not arguing against mismanagement. I'm arguing for specific criticisms based on what we know.

There are enough errors being made on here about what we DO know to warn us against making assumptions about what is unknown.

[westguy]

politically correct fellow posters - WAKE UP!!! How long are we going to support FN while they abuse the taxpayers. Have you forgotten the audit of a few years agothat concluded that the FN could not account for $500M of government money that they were given? Their reaction was to call the auditors racist!! Surely they could have cleaned up their act and hired people to do it right and show them how. The band leaders/chiefs have no interest in cleaning up their gravy train. They claim to value their old beliefs but willingly sell out to the oil companies for a big cheque. I wish my widowed mother had qualified for what FN get while she raised 4 kids under 10 working as a waitress. no sympathy at all for the FN.

[Moonbox]

From the audit.

Unless I misunderstood the audit completely (and that might be the case) the problem is that they didn't have supporting documentation not that they didn't know where it went.

For someone working 'in business', you seem to have a poor understanding of what an audit is. As smallc stated, according to the auditors the majority of the money they spent was spent without proper supporting documentation. There are apparently six figure items where the only paperwork backing them up is a little note saying something like, "Repair X" with no bills or receipts or paper trail. Some of the older items literally have no explanation for them and the taxpayers are just supposed to take it on faith that whatever explanation is given is true. When we say that there are tens of millions of dollars that cannot be accounted for, that's literally, and factually exactly what we're looking at here.

Edited January 9, 2013 by Moonbox

[Michael Hardner]

politically correct fellow posters - WAKE UP!!!

You see - this is what irritates me about this debate. We have posters who demand business-like demeanor of the FN leaders while at the same time are unable to articulate specific complaints that can be worked on, nor to describe a realistic path forward.

I think that things need to be fixed too - and that includes dialogue, i.e. people who say anything at all about the situation while complaining about [false] claims of racism.

[Michael Hardner]

And given that lack of information the only reasonable assumption is that large amounts of the money were spent on things that it should not have been spent on. There is absolutely no reason to believe that 'honest' people would have worked so hard to deliberately hide the money trail.

There's no evidence anything was hidden or spent on anything else. There's a slipshod effort in tracking expenses. Focusing on laying blame without any evidence is a waste of energy at this point. Furthermore, it will practically lead to a disintegration in whatever trust is left. The audit is done - we have evidence that things aren't being managed well - how can we move forward ? That's the pragmatic way forward.

[Michael Hardner]

Not necessarily, we don't really know what they know or what they don't. We know that there is no record or the records are deficient. Any competent PM knows that if it's not written down, it might as well not exist. Documentation is everything, what you can confirm and verify is everything. What you 'know' has zero value if you can't back it up.

Well, we have the audit. That tells us what they know and what they don't. Documentation and receipts are not the same thing. Lack of receipts shows mismanagement, but not necessarily theft.

As for what should be done now, I think it's obvious that the current Project Manager is completely incompetent. Get rid of him.

Who is he ?

Forget third party management, bring in an independent PM,

I think that's what 3rd party is.

it's the only way to ensure that things will be managed properly. It's either that or refuse funding to any projects that don't have proper supporting documents. The council is not going to like either of these options, but we tried it their way...it didn't work.

Ok but projects are funded before they start and documentation happens throughout. And you will have to go to court to impose a solution. I agree that getting them help is the key - how to do that without causing a fight is the challenge. Unless you want a fight.

[Smallc]

How can someone have their eyes closed so tightly, I wonder?