Open warfare in South Ossetia

[Argus]

Speaking of hypocrisy. I'm still waiting for the protestors against this illegal and unjust war initiated by Russia. You know, the same ones that showed up to protest America's intervention in Afghanistan and Iraq. So far, all I hear is silence.

Don't hold your breath. If the US was doing something like this the lefties would be frothing at the mouth, falling all over themselves as they screamed about international law and human rights, and the media would be gleefully showing every bloodstained civilian body. But because its Russia none of them really care. I think that amply demonstrates what a fraud it is whenever they snivel about such things involving the US or Israel.

[myata]

Pepsi is a product of the US based multinational conglomerate PepsiCo, founded in 1898 (Purchase, NY).

Thank you for choosing Pepsi!

I've no problems with Pepsi; only with Bush's foreign policies. As a matter of fact, it's only the least disagreeable of the alternatives. I don't really like the the stuff, too much sugar, and the taste's unnatural.

To Argus: as mentioned earlier, personal insults, to me, are a sure sign that the opponent is running out of all other (i.e logical, rational, intelligent, meaningful) arguments. I understand, you want to say something, but it just isn't coming through right. Don't be sad now - there's always next time.

[bush_cheney2004]

I've no problems with Pepsi; only with Bush's foreign policies. As a matter of fact, it's only the least disagreeable of the alternatives. I don't really like the the stuff, too much sugar, and the taste's unnatural.

Their foreign policies are the same. Thank you for choosing Pepsi anyway, a wonderful metaphor for what so many Canucks do every day while saying they "really don't like the stuff".

For others, things go better with Coke.

[Oksana]

A trap for Ukraine !!

It’s highly regrettable Ukraine is playing a part in Georgian effort to subdue South Ossetia in most disgusting way. It was erroneous to send armaments to Georgia with her militaristic and excessively emotional president. I have always known that nothing good would come out of this.

Now I hear that president Yuschenko is secretly sending so called “volunteers” to Georgia to employ them in the fighting on Ossetins and Russians. I doubt that they will be of any use. IMO that’s quite a different story! Wily Georgian Fox is well aware that he will end up in International Tribunal sooner or later. He just hates staying there alone. He would be happy to share the responsibility for genocide in South Ossetia with others such as Yuschenko and other dim-wits!

Oksana, Canada

[Argus]

A trap for Ukraine !!

It’s highly regrettable Ukraine is playing a part in Georgian effort to subdue South Ossetia in most disgusting way. It was erroneous to send armaments to Georgia with her militaristic and excessively emotional president. I have always known that nothing good would come out of this.

Now I hear that president Yuschenko is secretly sending so called “volunteers” to Georgia to employ them in the fighting on Ossetins and Russians. I doubt that they will be of any use. IMO that’s quite a different story! Wily Georgian Fox is well aware that he will end up in International Tribunal sooner or later. He just hates staying there alone. He would be happy to share the responsibility for genocide in South Ossetia with others such as Yuschenko and other dim-wits!

Oksana, Canada

Your commitment to your homeland seems laudible.

I suggest you go back there. Trust me, most Canadians want no part of you and your sort. We would be happy to pay your way.

We have too many barely literate foreign riff-raff as it is.

[myata]

Their foreign policies are the same.

Putin's and Bush's? Of course. Grab as much as you can to the tune of good goodness talk - maybe somebody could still get duped (there's always that hope - and it (talk) is cheap and doesn't hurt anyways).

Thank you for choosing Pepsi anyway, a wonderful metaphor for what so many Canucks do every day while saying they "really don't like the stuff".

Well they aren't doing Iraq, and haven't done Vietnam and Cuba before that. That's something. Though I'd much prefer we'd keep out of foreign military adventures as a matter of principle, rather than intuition.

[Rue]

Your commitment to your homeland seems laudible.

I suggest you go back there. Trust me, most Canadians want no part of you and your sort. We would be happy to pay your way.

We have too many barely literate foreign riff-raff as it is.

Argus you made some good arguements until you got silly with the above name calling. Oksana is entitled to her opinion just as you and I are ours, and her opinions do not make her foreign riff raff, just another Canadian with an opinion.

Me personally I believe she has the total right to argue what she says as a Canadian. I respect it although I respectfully disagree with her. I think it's Israel's fault.

Sorry I couldn't resist.

To Oksana and anyone else on the pro-Russia side, I do think in this case Putin is showing his true colours. Nothing should surporise anyone. Russia feels Georgia is in their control zone. This is not about caring about Russian citizens-that is a pretense. Its about Russia trying to stop the spread the influence of the West in zones considered strategic to Russia and in particular US led political alliances because we all know what is going on-take a look-its a strategic oil area-Russia is protectingw hat it sees as its oil supplies and strategic zones of control to protect its oil supplies, the US and the Europian Union see Georgia as an opportunity to expand and get more influence over an area they want to control for oil resource reasons.

NATO will not fight Russia. Russia was tested by the US and NATO. This was a test to see how strong and ocmmitted Putin is to stopping Western expansion. Its a proxy war that has already started between the West and Russia.

Putin has emerged creating a state based on being the next oil superpower. Its clear he is rebuilding the Russian empire by a state run, totalitarian system of economic control between the military and the organized crime mafia that runs his country.

Putin seized the opportunity precisely because Bush is a lameduck and the US is crippled from Iraq and Afghanistan and can not continue to think it can be a superpower globally. It can't run all the wars it thinks it can.

Is Georgia a democracy. Please. Its a proxy US state. Is it more democratic then Russia? Is the Ukraine? Well if you ask their people who feel liberated from the Russian tyranny of the Soviet era they will say yes in strong loud terms and they do have voting now. But who is kidding who. The former Soviet occupied socialist states that now have freedom, i.e., Ukraine, Bulgaria, Armenia, Georgia, etc., they have many economic problems because no one is really free in terms of being a member of the international monetary fund and world economic system that dictates all economic policies and so ultimately the lifestyles of us all.

Bottom line, Russia is a raving hippocrate for saying one thing about Chechnya and doing the exact opposite with Georgia. Russia is doing exactly what it criticizes Israel of. For that matter China is engaging in its Muslim states exactly what it accuses Israel of.

Bottom line is-its another bullshit war where ethnic groups are pitted against one another as a pretense or pretext of a larger oil war going on which controls us all.

The world will not tell Russia to get lost just as it remains silent over China in Sudan, etc.

This is not Israel. No need to engage in moral lectures as to ethnic cleansing, etc. Its not Israel.

If anybody had any doubts how weak the U.S. is right now because of Iraq and Afghanistan and how Putin has been laughing at Bush hysterically and ridiculing him for the last 8 years, this is just another example.

Putin has given Bush the proverbial finger and there is nothing the lameduck putz can do about it.

Edited August 11, 2008 by Rue

[eyeball]

Putin has given Bush the proverbial finger and there is nothing the lameduck putz can do about it.

Apparently there's nothing we can do about super-rogues either.

Speaking of hypocrisy. I'm still waiting for the protestors against this illegal and unjust war initiated by Russia. You know, the same ones that showed up to protest America's intervention in Afghanistan and Iraq. So far, all I hear is silence.

Hey Shady, where were you when I was suggesting we protest the super-rogues for their geopolitical transgressions by imposing economic sanctions against them?

[moderateamericain]

Can we have enough of the "human rights" soap opera already? It's quickly becoming boring. It's used as a well stretched male birth control appliance whenether there's a need to justify questionnable acts or policies. Let's just look at the acts and forget glorious words for now. Bush wanted regime change in Iraq, and US army conquered Iraq. Putin may very well want regime change in Georgia, but Russians aren't yet invading its proper territory. US attacked Iraq completely unprovoked; Russian observers in Osetia, by all indications, were first attacked by Georgia. The bottom line is, by involving yourself in these highly questionnable adventures you lose any claim to moral position. It's now all about balance of forces and powers, and from that perspective we all know that neither US, nor EU will risk direct conflict with Russia on behalf ot its protege. Full stop.

From that point of view, Argus, indeed the regime in Russia may be corrupt and brutal; it's just that the choice between them and Bush's administration, at least in the international politics is as hard as it ever gets. And so, I choose ... Pepsi!

How can you have enough of the human rights soap opera? I assure you theres nothing fake about 28 million killed by your own government. In case you dont know thats the best estimate ive seen in the number of RUSSIAN citizens killed by the RUSSIAN government. To casually toss that aside as a invalid argument is foolish and wrong. Also As of today the Russians Invaded Georga proper. They seized a military base and a police station.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080811/ap_on_...a_south_ossetia

My question to you all now is where do we draw the line in the sand and say to Russia. Cross this border and we fire a nuke up your ass. Poland? You know that Germany's excuse for invading Serbia in World war one and two was to "protect" its German speaking brethren in Northern Serbia from the rest of Serbia.

Edited August 11, 2008 by moderateamericain

[myata]

How can you have enough of the human rights soap opera?

Simply because when Bush, or you, use the word you won't tell (or maybe, don't know?) what it means. Its as soft and stretchy as a spandex sock. Here, we see it, there, we won't. For these folks, it means nothing more than "we need a good reason to go there". Otherwise, why would US resist attempts to establish real international justice system to prosecure war crimes wherever (and by whoever) they were committed (International Criminal Court)?

I assure you theres nothing fake about 28 million killed by your own government. In case you dont know thats the best estimate ive seen in the number of RUSSIAN citizens killed by the RUSSIAN government. To casually toss that aside as a invalid argument is foolish and wrong.

How is it relevant to the topic in question? Should current US administration be blamed for nuking Hiroshima, or atrocities in Vietnam? (not that it's relevant and FYI, it isn't my government).

Also As of today the Russians Invaded Georga proper. They seized a military base and a police station.

There're many conflicting stories. International community should keep cool head and focus efforts on restoring peace as the utmost priority. Taking one side, especially the one that escalated the conflict, does very little to achieve that.

If Russian manuevers in Georgia proper are indeed confirmed, and they aim at a full invasion, rather than some tactical border activities (which e.g. Isreal does routinely in Palestine and Lebanon, with full support of the US), I'll be concerned and call for immediate stop to that.

Finally, to prevent similar incidents from reoccuring in the future, it'll do us all a lot of good to have the affair investigated thoroughly and deeply. People have died where they shouldn't have, and somebody somewhere should be held responsible. And if somebody else, as suggested in the thread, was encouraging them to stir the water, they should at least be brought out into the spotlight. So that everybody could see the reverse side of lecturing peace.

My question to you all now is where do we draw the line in the sand and say to Russia. Cross this border and we fire a nuke up your ass.

Dream on.

Poland? You know that Germany's excuse for invading Serbia in World war one and two was to "protect" its German speaking brethren in Northern Serbia from the rest of Serbia.

And american excuse for invading Vietnam? But wait, are you actually saying that Georgia did not start shelling the capital and didn't send their troops in massive numbers? That seems to contradict all the information I've seen so far, maybe you'd have some sort of evidence to substantiate that?

[jdobbin]

The Russians have invaded Georgia and taken one of its cities.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/worl...icle4507980.ece

Russian forces overran the strategic Georgian city of Gori today as troops prepared to defend the capital Tbilisi from what one official called a "total onslaught".

Georgian soldiers fled Gori, 17 miles from the border with rebel South Ossetia, in panic and disarray, clinging to the sides of cars and vehicles as they sped out of town. A Georgian armoured personnel carrier was in flames on the street, a victim of the sudden rout.

I wonder if the U.S. will respond with force.

[moderateamericain]

The Russians have invaded Georgia and taken one of its cities.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/worl...icle4507980.ece

I wonder if the U.S. will respond with force.

I highly doubt we will come to the aid of Georgia. If the Russians do infact stop short of a full invasion of Georgia. I could see the Georgians inviting us to set up a Base there. IE, Providing a stopping block for further russian agression down the road. It would also be a great spot strategically to have a military presence. Proximity to Middle east, Russia, dare i say China.

[Argus]

Argus you made some good arguements until you got silly with the above name calling. Oksana is entitled to her opinion just as you and I are ours, and her opinions do not make her foreign riff raff, just another Canadian with an opinion

But he/she's not a Canadian. That's clear. And that's one of my problems with bringing in so many immigrants. Most of them are still fiercly attached to whatever ignorant beliefs and policies their craphole cultures and countries believed in, and I don't think we need to import those types of attitudes, especially in large numbers.

NATO will not fight Russia. Russia was tested by the US and NATO. This was a test to see how strong and ocmmitted Putin is to stopping Western expansion. Its a proxy war that has already started between the West and Russia.

Are you suggesting that other powers put Georgia up to trying to grab back their provinces? I don't see it that way. It might be that Georgians were encouraged by friendly overtures from the West, and supportive noises, but they were foolish to provoke the Russians with a man like Putin in power, and I think anyone in the west would have predicted a strong response and would not have suggested to the Georgians that they do this.

Is Georgia a democracy. Please. Its a proxy US state. Is it more democratic then Russia? Is the Ukraine? Well if you ask their people who feel liberated from the Russian tyranny of the Soviet era they will say yes in strong loud terms and they do have voting now. But who is kidding who. The former Soviet occupied socialist states that now have freedom, i.e., Ukraine, Bulgaria, Armenia, Georgia, etc., they have many economic problems because no one is really free in terms of being a member of the international monetary fund and world economic system that dictates all economic policies and so ultimately the lifestyles of us all.

I'm not sure what you're suggesting here; is it that freedom only comes with wealth? Georgians are free in that they have a relatively free press, freedom of religion and association, and can elect or throw out the government of the day. Same for Ukraine. Given the lack of freedoms in Russia, however, I don't see how they can be termed democratic.

[Argus]

The Russians have invaded Georgia and taken one of its cities.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/worl...icle4507980.ece

I wonder if the U.S. will respond with force.

Georgia isn't important enough, and the US apparently feels it needs Russia to counterbalance Iran, though frankly, I don't see how they've been much help.

I would, however, funnel a lot of anti-aircraft and anti-tank missiles to the Georgians. They can't possibly stop the Russians, but if they kill enough Russians it would make holding the land too politically expensive for Emperor Putin.

[Argus]

Simply because when Bush, or you, use the word you won't tell (or maybe, don't know?) what it means. Its as soft and stretchy as a spandex sock. Here, we see it, there, we won't.

There might be some quibbling about the broader use of the term. But I think all of us (except Russians) can agree that when you are murdered for criticising the government that constitutes a human rights abuse. And that's certainly something which happens to Russians - even if they're not in Russia any more.

As for all you snivelling bullshit about the Americans, all of that is merely a distraction as you want to lead the topic away from Russian crimes.

[GostHacked]

As for all you snivelling bullshit about the Americans, all of that is merely a distraction as you want to lead the topic away from Russian crimes.

I guess everyone is tired of hearing about US crimes. They are a plenty.

I still am not sure what to think of this conflict. I just know that it will have major impact on the area if the fighting continues for more than a few weeks.

[moderateamericain]

I guess everyone is tired of hearing about US crimes. They are a plenty.

I still am not sure what to think of this conflict. I just know that it will have major impact on the area if the fighting continues for more than a few weeks.

I know this is moral equivalence bullshit. But I honestly don't understand how a person on one hand can condemn the United States, a country with a fairly good human rights record, for invading Iraq (irregardless of the reasoning behind it) and then defend Russia (a country that has killed millions of people in its own country and committed atrocities on par with Hitler) for Invading Georgia. I'm not saying the USA is right for invading Iraq. But How can you compare that with an Invasion by Russia into Georgia and make that some sort of excuse for them to do it. Its sort of like saying because A took this action, which we don't believe was right, B, which we know will do more damage by degrees, is excused from its action.

[Shady]

Putin needs to end the charade. Re-open the gulags, bring back the hammer and sickle, and make it offical already.

[Oleg Bach]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080808/ap_on_...CwSd6Mh78pvaA8F

In case you dont know this Georgia is actively trying to join with NATO. The US trains Georgian troops who currently have about 2k in Iraq. This is getting beyond serious. Open warefare is a big deal. Especially when dealing with two kids on the block who historically dont flinch when it comes to games of chicken.

Remeber our old buddy Joe Stalin? Well he originated in Georgia....how can this be a potential break away region of Russia when old Joe the paranoid butcher of early sovietism spawned from there - I say punish the bastards and make them stay part of Russia - I would say that all of Stalins clan should pay tribute to the Russians that were slaughtered via atrition - in order to make Stalin the smartest guy on the block by killing all that could think - damn Georgia - as far as the thousand Jewish advisors acting as henchmen for the mob in Washington - well maybe it's time to nuke Israel the surrogate thief....the whole thing stinks...as per usual. Does no one see things for the way they are? If the Russian administration was not upper level mafia then they would have never notice the Americans muscling in on their turf using the damn Jews...and I can see it now - crocidile tears for the warish Judiac advisor trouble maker types when the Kremlin start killing the hire guns and creeped out interlopers......People should mind their own buisness---Putin and the boys will not tolerate the Jewish mob taking their oil...on behalf of the Anglo infidels in Washington - Infidels? Did I say that? Ha !

[jdobbin]

I highly doubt we will come to the aid of Georgia. If the Russians do infact stop short of a full invasion of Georgia. I could see the Georgians inviting us to set up a Base there. IE, Providing a stopping block for further russian agression down the road. It would also be a great spot strategically to have a military presence. Proximity to Middle east, Russia, dare i say China.

I am still waiting to hear the U.S. response and whether it will be a military one. So far they are using harsh diplomatic language. It must be a shock to Georgians who are one of Bush's closet allies in the war in Iraq.

When the nuclear powers get into it, it doesn't leave room for others to do much.

[jdobbin]

Georgia isn't important enough, and the US apparently feels it needs Russia to counterbalance Iran, though frankly, I don't see how they've been much help.

I would, however, funnel a lot of anti-aircraft and anti-tank missiles to the Georgians. They can't possibly stop the Russians, but if they kill enough Russians it would make holding the land too politically expensive for Emperor Putin.

If there is any part of Georgia left to resist.

Bush said he believes that Russia is trying to topple Georgia and he might be right. The Europeans are saying the only voice that counts with the Russians is the American one. Bush has being speaking harshly about the actions by Russia but it doesn't seem to have had much effect yet.

[Oleg Bach]

If there is any part of Georgia left to resist.

Bush said he believes that Russia is trying to topple Georgia and he might be right. The Europeans are saying the only voice that counts with the Russians is the American one. Bush has being speaking harshly about the actions by Russia but it doesn't seem to have had much effect yet.

"Topple Georgia" silly! Bush is acting in a revisionist manner - anyone who knows their recent history knows that Geogia has been a part of Russia for ages and never really existed as an independent place. It's like saying Washington is trying to topple West Virgina!

[jdobbin]

"Topple Georgia" silly! Bush is acting in a revisionist manner - anyone who knows their recent history knows that Geogia has been a part of Russia for ages and never really existed as an independent place. It's like saying Washington is trying to topple West Virgina!

I guess we should let the unify again. Silly Georgians for thinking they were a separate country.

[Black Dog]

"Topple Georgia" silly! Bush is acting in a revisionist manner - anyone who knows their recent history knows that Geogia has been a part of Russia for ages and never really existed as an independent place.

Georgia has existed as an independent state since 1991. What came before matters not a whit.

[bush_cheney2004]

I am still waiting to hear the U.S. response and whether it will be a military one. So far they are using harsh diplomatic language. It must be a shock to Georgians who are one of Bush's closet allies in the war in Iraq.

Interesting...I am waiting to see what Canada will do.

When the nuclear powers get into it, it doesn't leave room for others to do much.

Aww come on...what about the "honest broker" role and peacekeeping? I hear Georgia is nice this year!