Open warfare in South Ossetia

[August1991]

For those who don't know anything about what's going on here, the short form is this: Imperial Russia is highly peeved that most of its empire has drifted off. It wants it back. For the last ten years Emperor Putin has been trying, by hook and by crook (and by poison), to get places like Ukraine and Georgia back into the fold. Russian agents inspired the "independence" movement in this particular border region. They provided weapons and money, as well as logistics and mercenaries. Then they sent in what they call "peacekeeping forces" to protect them from "Georgian aggression" and handed out Russian passports to everybody. This is pretty much naked aggression in the old fashioned imperial way of seizing territory for the empire. With no free press the Russian government is now portraying this as "protecting" its "citizens" from the evil Georgians. However, the Georgian government, unlike the Russian government, is a representative democracy. The Russian government is a thugocracy, basically what you'd find if mafia dons were in all major political offices.

While I would most certainly not describe the situation this way, I have to agree with Argus' basic point.

I can only add that I'm almost inclined to say: let Russia have South Ossetia and Abkhazia. It's like Ontario invading Quebec to take Oka. "You want it? It's yours."

-----

I think the bigger test here is to see the western reaction and to consider recuperating eastern Ukraine. In Soviet times, Khruschev gave this Russian territory to the Ukraine and it has been a problem for even reasonable Russians since Yeltsin dissolved the Soviet Union.

Abkhazia is along the Black Sea and so is the (now Ukrainian) Crimea.

Edited August 12, 2008 by August1991

[blueblood]

This is an unfortunate incident. I don't see why we have to all of a sudden rush to the U.S. to stop the big russian menace, they have their hands full. Mind you that's typical of modern day European nations, useless as tits on a bull. I feel sorry for the Americans here, heads you win, tails the US loses.

This incident is scary, this would be exactly like if the U.S. invaded Canada. I don't see why people always bash the US foreign policy, the Russians are much worse. If the US had a foreign policy similar to Russia's we would be singing the Star Spangled Banner instead of O Canada.

[August1991]

To Oksana and anyone else on the pro-Russia side, I do think in this case Putin is showing his true colours. Nothing should surporise anyone. Russia feels Georgia is in their control zone. This is not about caring about Russian citizens-that is a pretense. Its about Russia trying to stop the spread the influence of the West in zones considered strategic to Russia and in particular US led political alliances because we all know what is going on-take a look-its a strategic oil area-Russia is protectingw hat it sees as its oil supplies and strategic zones of control to protect its oil supplies, the US and the Europian Union see Georgia as an opportunity to expand and get more influence over an area they want to control for oil resource reasons.

NATO will not fight Russia. Russia was tested by the US and NATO. This was a test to see how strong and ocmmitted Putin is to stopping Western expansion. Its a proxy war that has already started between the West and Russia.

...

Putin seized the opportunity precisely because Bush is a lameduck and the US is crippled from Iraq and Afghanistan and can not continue to think it can be a superpower globally. It can't run all the wars it thinks it can.

Is Georgia a democracy. Please. Its a proxy US state. Is it more democratic then Russia? Is the Ukraine? Well if you ask their people who feel liberated from the Russian tyranny of the Soviet era they will say yes in strong loud terms and they do have voting now. But who is kidding who. The former Soviet occupied socialist states that now have freedom, i.e., Ukraine, Bulgaria, Armenia, Georgia, etc., they have many economic problems because no one is really free in terms of being a member of the international monetary fund and world economic system that dictates all economic policies and so ultimately the lifestyles of us all.

Interesting post, rue.

To defeat the Imperial American Paper Tiger, I can understand Leftists taking the side of Osama. I cannot imagine them taking Putin's side. (IOW, Putin is a KGB agent without useful foreign idiots by his side. Unlike Osama, Putin is in this without any Western Leftist sympathy - excepy that Putin is standing up to America.)

I am still waiting to hear the U.S. response and whether it will be a military one. So far they are using harsh diplomatic language. It must be a shock to Georgians who are one of Bush's closet allies in the war in Iraq.

The US taxpayers are not charged with policing the world.

Dobbin, bad things, terrible injustices, happen every day in the world. The US federal government watches and does nothing.

[jdobbin]

The US taxpayers are not charged with policing the world.

Did I say they were? I said I was interested in seeing how the U.S. would respond and whether there would be a military component.

So far the military component has been flying Georgian soldiers home as per the agreement Georgia had that they would get an airlift if a crisis at home dictated it.

McCain has been pretty vocal thus far but it seems more focused on embarrassing Obama and distancing himself from Bush. It doesn't seem to offer solutions to the present problem.

In the end, it looks like the U.S. is impotent and can only promise future sanctions against the Russians such as tossing them out of the G8 or WTO problems.

Dobbin, bad things, terrible injustices, happen every day in the world. The US federal government watches and does nothing.

Well, they don't do anything when it looks like it could involve nukes.

Probably the same reason they treat Pakistan gingerly.

Edited August 12, 2008 by jdobbin

[bush_cheney2004]

To defeat the Imperial American Paper Tiger, I can understand Leftists taking the side of Osama. I cannot imagine them taking Putin's side. (IOW, Putin is a KGB agent without useful foreign idiots by his side. Unlike Osama, Putin is in this without any Western Leftist sympathy - excepy that Putin is standing up to America.)

Right...they was a counterbalance to the American hegemon, but should be careful what they wish for.

The US taxpayers are not charged with policing the world.

Dobbin, bad things, terrible injustices, happen every day in the world. The US federal government watches and does nothing.

Right again...US taxpayers are charged with looking out for their own interests.

[myata]

I'd wait with doomsday scenarios for a moment, till things clear out a bit. Here's my take on what could happen in the next couple of days; we'll see how it'll actually play out.

#1 There will be no attack on Georgia's capital, no invasion and no regime change; Russian troops will pull back into breakaway regions in the next couple of days; Russian generals were given a brief window to dismantle as much of Georgia's military as they could squeeze in that time.

#2 Russia will not sign the ceasefire agreement, not in its current formula (actually I'll bet 70/30 against them signing).

#3 Russia will maintain strong presence in the breakaway regions. If they play smart, they'll invest into reconstruction and economic development, encourage free elections, and should the elected government so decide, a free referendum on cessation from Georgia. But that's really too far. For now it's back to status quo with strengthened Russian position in the breakaway zones, and trust between Russia and the West at the lowest point since the end of cold war.

And here's why. They (russians) got extremely disappointed (to use a polite word) with Western (mostly American) double talk in the matter. They stood by their mission, against an all out onslaught, and all they got in return was condemnation and lecturing. Following West's failure to react to the initial attacks by Georgia in an impartial manner, they are now showing that Western talk means nothing to them and all further developments will be on their own terms. Which is sad, but predictable. Dealing under the table, double talk and meddling is hardly the way to lasting trust and understanding.

In conclusion, the sheer hypocrisy of American polemics is truly amazing. 3,000 of dead civilians in WTC resulted in two all out wars with uncounted further civilian deaths; that wasn't in any way "disproportionate"; rather, the right thing to do. Now, half of that count in South Osetia, with nowhere near same ferocity of response, and here we go. Oh well.

[bush_cheney2004]

In conclusion, the sheer hypocrisy of American polemics is truly amazing. 3,000 of dead civilians in WTC resulted in two all out wars with uncounted further civilian deaths; that wasn't in any way "disproportionate"; rather, the right thing to do. Now, half of that count in South Osetia, with nowhere near same ferocity of response, and here we go. Oh well.

Still waiting for the Canadian response after big talk about Ukraine and Georgia joining NATO:

....The Prime Minister also indicated that Canada would join any NATO consensus to admit the Republic of Georgia to NATO’s Membership Action Plan.

http://pm.gc.ca/eng/media.asp?id=2053

[August1991]

In conclusion, the sheer hypocrisy of American polemics is truly amazing. 3,000 of dead civilians in WTC resulted in two all out wars with uncounted further civilian deaths; that wasn't in any way "disproportionate"; rather, the right thing to do. Now, half of that count in South Osetia, with nowhere near same ferocity of response, and here we go. Oh well.

Sheer hypocrisy?

I suppose that you would also say that since German companies now dominate in Poland, the Nazis achieved their ultimate goal.

IOW myata, you don't see the difference between Soviet Russia in, say, Poland and America in, say, Iraq.

When Albert Einstein presented his idea of relativity, it was a solution to a problem of physics. He didn't mean everything was relative - for Heaven's sake. The speed of light is a limit like a horizon disappears. In my memory, the horizon in Saskatchewan is an absolute since everything appears to disappear to nothing.

[myata]

Nope, that has nothing to do with relativity; only the notion of justice. Which judges deeds on the basis of acts and facts, not who executed whem, and with what motivation.

Relative, on the contrary, are the morals of Mr Bush and the like; any questionable, illegal or atrocious act can be deemed "good" if its perpetrator happen to belong to a certain preselected group. As there's hardly anything new under this Sun, such an arrangement is usually known as "feodalism". You are free to add democratic adjectives if it would make any difference.

[August1991]

Nope, that has nothing to do with relativity; only the notion of justice. Which judges deeds on the basis of acts and facts, not who executed whem, and with what motivation.

Relative, on the contrary, are the morals of Mr Bush and the like; any questionable, illegal or atrocious act can be deemed "good" if its perpetrator happen to belong to a certain preselected group. As there's hardly anything new under this Sun, such an arrangement is usually known as "feodalism". You are free to add democratic adjectives if it would make any difference.

So, there is no difference between America's "invasion" of France in June 1944 and the German Nazi "invasion" of Poland in Setpember 1939.

After all, German Metro stores now operate in Poland and America's McDonalds now operate in Germany. It's all the same, no?

-----

I just spent the past few days in Poland, and I took the time to walk around the stones placed in the forest on the edge of Treblinka. I hope American liberals understand the difference between Bush, and true psychopaths.

[White Doors]

Russian Premier orders a halt to Russians advance.

[Argus]

And here's why. They (russians) got extremely disappointed (to use a polite word) with Western (mostly American) double talk in the matter.

What double talk? The Americans and the west have been pretty forthright in condemning Russia's illegal agression.

They stood by their mission, against an all out onslaught, and all they got in return was condemnation and lecturing.

They stood by their mission? To invade a foreign nation and steal it's land? And you feel they should have expected support in this matter?

In conclusion, the sheer hypocrisy of American polemics is truly amazing.

Really? I'm wondering why you continue to try and deflect everything to the Americans when they aren't even involved here. What about the sheer hypocrisy of a Russia, which slaughters thousands and thousands in Chechnia because they wanted to breakaway from Russia, and then sends troops to assist the South Ossetia people who want to break away from Georgia? What about your sheer hypocrisy, for that matter?

[myata]

So, there is no difference between America's "invasion" of France in June 1944 and the German Nazi "invasion" of Poland in Setpember 1939.

The example bears no relevance to the point that was made; too obvious to explain. It's really funny though to watch these high level leaders, versed and educated in countless legalities, struggling (or twisting) to grasp the very basics of any notion of justice: that is, a deed should be judged on its own merit, no matter who executed it, or what they were thinking. The democracy club still wants to make its own laws and morals, not to be applicable to, or questionnable by, other, lesser folk. And, as it appears, for some strange and unknown reason, them lesser folks, just aren't impressed.

[moderateamericain]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080812/ap_on_...gDaDB_sBboazJV4

Latest..

[myata]

Still waiting for the Canadian response after big talk about Ukraine and Georgia joining NATO:

....The Prime Minister also indicated that Canada would join any NATO consensus to admit the Republic of Georgia to NATO’s Membership Action Plan.

http://pm.gc.ca/eng/media.asp?id=2053

That btw happened back in April; some Europeans must have sensed coming trouble and prevented Ukraine and Georgia's ascendance plan. And now, following their recent atticks, Georgians would have to kiss goodbye to NATO for a while, till hotheads cool down a bit (I'd give it at least till the next election; or maybe longer and much longer, depending on how the situation around breakaway regions will develop). Ukraine, on the other hand, could (and probably, should) be accepted, if not in December, then maybe in the near future.

[GostHacked]

I know this is moral equivalence bullshit. But I honestly don't understand how a person on one hand can condemn the United States, a country with a fairly good human rights record, for invading Iraq (irregardless of the reasoning behind it)...

Yeah forget the reasons. The reasons don't matter right?

When the US invaded Iraq, it was for freedom right? Now on the news you hear about Russia's strategy. Georgia is a strategic point for controling the flow of resources like oil and gas. Two different reasons. But Russia does not seem to hide behind the 'freedom' thing. They want the resources. They are not shy about it.

and then defend Russia (a country that has killed millions of people in its own country and committed atrocities on par with Hitler) for Invading Georgia.

Russia has always had the stigma ingrained by the west as being a menace.

I'm not saying the USA is right for invading Iraq.

Then why compare?

But How can you compare that with an Invasion by Russia into Georgia and make that some sort of excuse for them to do it. Its sort of like saying because A took this action, which we don't believe was right, B, which we know will do more damage by degrees, is excused from its action.

I don't approve of the actions by Russia. Nothing I have said in this thread states that. You are making assumptions again. Which is ok, I don't mind.

If you defend the invasion of Iraq but denouce the invasion of Georgia, then you have a problem. Both are unwarranted. But I am still learning about the conflicts in Georgia. So I will claim ignorance untill I learn more.

[AngusThermopyle]

Russia has always had the stigma ingrained by the west as being a menace.

Russia has always born such a stigma because they were and are once again becoming a menace. You simply can not compare Russia with the US, apples and oranges. No matter how you may wish to condemn the US they simply are not a totalitarian state that has murdered up to 50 million of their own citizens.

[Rue]

Apparently there's nothing we can do about super-rogues either.

Hey Shady, where were you when I was suggesting we protest the super-rogues for their geopolitical transgressions by imposing economic sanctions against them?

I was in heaven telling YWH how righteous you are and to save a seat next to him for you. I am back now.

p.s. she says Canada should send Rita McNeil to your house to sing for you. You are worthy of such praise.

p.s.s. now these super-rogues are...oh I can't wait for the universal eye of truth to tell us all who is acceptable and who is not.

[Rue]

Oh Argus;

In response to your words;

"But he/she's not a Canadian. That's clear."

Uh not its not and even if she isn't she is most certainly entitled to her opinions. Remember its called freedom of speech.

You stated;

"And that's one of my problems with bringing in so many immigrants. Most of them are still fiercly attached to whatever ignorant beliefs and policies their craphole cultures and countries believed in, and I don't think we need to import those types of attitudes, especially in large numbers."

That is a sweeping, subjective negative stereotype and like I said it dettracts from your otherwise excellent discourse. You know full well this country is full of people, some sob's living here out of convenience and others who are genuinely proud to be here and loyal Canadians. You or I have no way of knowing who is what unless they say or do something disloyal to Canada. Until then all you do is hate monger when you make such comments. I prefer to focus on your comments when you present your political views, not the speculated idiocies of others.

You stated;

"Are you suggesting that other powers put Georgia up to trying to grab back their provinces?"

I think the European Union and the US led Georgia on and yes used it to probe Russia to see how Russia would react. Nothing suprising with that kind of analysis. Countries probe each other's positions using proxy third parties all the time. That is just my personal opinion. I have zero proof for such a theory and admit as much.

"It might be that Georgians were encouraged by friendly overtures from the West, and supportive noises, but they were foolish to provoke the Russians with a man like Putin in power, and I think anyone in the west would have predicted a strong response and would not have suggested to the Georgians that they do this."

I am not sure how much of Georgia's behaviour was deliberate and premeditated and manipulated by the Wes and how much is genuine. I suspect its a mix of both.

"I'm not sure what you're suggesting here; is it that freedom only comes with wealth?"

What I am suggesting is yes Georgia is certainly democratic in the sense of a free vote and certainly more freedom then it had under Russia and that is a great thing, don't get me wrong. All I am saying is Georgia however is a small and weak country who can never truly be free of the larger world market forces being played out for oil and natural resources.

You stated;

" Georgians are free in that they have a relatively free press, freedom of religion and association, and can elect or throw out the government of the day. Same for Ukraine."

Absolutely, but what I am saying is the countries that have come out from the control of the old Soviet Union, i.e., Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, the Ukraine, Georgia, they all have fragile economies and all these countries have been assured by the West they will be part of the "democractic" European Union.

The question now is how far is the European Union willing to go to stand with these nations for their independence?

Its one thing to talk the talk, its another thing when Russia is invading.

Just how long ago was it the West did nothingw hile the Soviets crushed Hungary, Poland, Cezchoslovakia.

Do any of us believe the so called democratic European Union will do anything?

No one can do a bloody thing and Putin knows it. He has been laughing at the West now for over 8 years. He has sent a clear signal he will do what the f..ck he wants in the part of the world he feels should be his to control and there is not a damn thing the West will do.

Putin has given the loudest message to the West yet about how weak we are because of our dependence on oil.

The US is a spent military force unable to respond and bankrupt. So who else does that leave to stand up to Putin?

If Putin sets up a puppet state in Georgia it simply repeats history and if you think the invasion sounds a lot like the Hitler going into Poland just wait. These proxy wars never end with one colony taken back. It spreads.

Its simply history repeating. The Bear declined and inhaled, now it it exhales and tries to expand again with an arrogance that comes from oil wealth.

Anyone who did not see Putin as a ruthless facist years ago is dreaming. He is quintessential KGB. He is trained to be a lethal soldier. It was only a matter of time and quite frankly I think Putin would have sat quite content to do nothing for another time period had Bush not been such a jack-ass and caused him to lose face in the macho world of posturing by showing what Putin felt was disrespect with missile placement in Czechoslovakia.

Its typical American ignorance. They have this moron for a President who is oblivious to how his comments and tactics are perceived by others. The Bush foreign policy is classic myopic John Wayne stupidity with zero subtlety.

This all could have been avoided with some diplomacy 2 years ago.

I see Putin as nothing more then another tyrant feeling horny in the light of Bush's pathetic lame duck idiocy for the last two years in regards to foreign policy.

Putin has basically signalled the Middle East to consider the US a joke. The only question is was it intentional or is he egging Iran on into confronting the US as well. If that does happen, its Russia that stands to make money. If Iran's oil wells are blown up, suddenly its Russian oil the West needs.

Putin is playing the US like the prize putz it is crippled by Bush's disasterous foreign policy.

All that said this does not change the fact Russia has acted illegally and like one would expect from a facist regime.

The people of Georgia are on their own and that is too bad. They should not be.

[myata]

.... Russia ... for Invading Georgia.

... But How can you compare that with an Invasion by Russia into Georgia ...

Just to make sure we use correct terminology here - and avoid any further confusion; prior to Georgian assault, Russian peackeepers were in the region legally (US State Dept):

The June 24, 1992 Sochi Agreement established a cease-fire between the Georgian and South Ossetian forces and defined both a zone of conflict around the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali and a security corridor along the border of South Ossetian territories

Georgia's attacks Thursday night violated both the ceasefire and peacekeeping agreement, so who's the agressor and invader?

The question whether Russian response was proportionate should be answered when investigation is complete and all facts are available. And most certainly, in the light of previous similar acts by the NATO and the US (like bombing of Serbia in Kosovo conflict, invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan).

Edited August 12, 2008 by myata

[HisSelf]

Ya know, I looked through this whole thread and found not a single refernce to the fact that Georgia has ambitions of joining NATO, that Bush has this idea about putting missiles all over any part of the world that is not already kissing his a$$ and that Georgia had 1,000 troops in Iraq (the coalition of the willing).

Hello? Cuban missile crisis anyone? Is it really so different because it's not OUR kids hiding under their desks when the sirens go off? George Bellicose Bush does it again.

So now Medvedev is playing nice. We've got a Russian god cop bad cop thing going here. Putin is the bad cop.

I think Bush now understands that he is in over his head. He's been there a bloody long time.

Say good-bye George.

[GostHacked]

Really? I'm wondering why you continue to try and deflect everything to the Americans when they aren't even involved here.

If you think the US is not involved, you really need to take a closer look.

The US helped Georgia become a soverign nation. Georgia has been strategicly important to the US. Georgia is also the 3rd largest military group in Iraq. They signed on to the war on terror.

Looking at Georgia's history, this place has been a source of violence and disputes for decades. Coups, Part of Russian, then not, then part of it again, then not. Couple civil wars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(country)

The growing US and European Union influence in Georgia, notably through the Train and Equip military assistance programme and the construction of the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline, have frequently strained Tbilisi’s relations with Moscow.

George W. Bush became the first sitting U.S. president to visit the country.[40] The street leading to Tbilisi International Airport has since been dubbed George W. Bush Avenue.[41]

[HisSelf]

If you think the US is not involved, you really need to take a closer look.

By George, I think he's got it!

[M.Dancer]

If you think the US is not involved, you really need to take a closer look.

If the US is involved then Canada and half of Europe must be involved. I think the difficulty you may be having is with the word involved....it has actually a real definition and that definition isn't tangential association.

Yes the US has a tangential association with Georgia...so so lots of nations.

This was is a menage a trois, russia, russian georgians and georgians. The same scenario was used before in the sudetenland...an invasion on the pretext to protect their citizens...

[WIP]

Just to make sure we use correct terminology here - and avoid any further confusion; prior to Georgian assault, Russian peackeepers were in the region legally (US State Dept):

Georgia's attacks Thursday night violated both the ceasefire and peacekeeping agreement, so who's the agressor and invader?

The question whether Russian response was proportionate should be answered when investigation is complete and all facts are available. And most certainly, in the light of previous similar acts by the NATO and the US (like bombing of Serbia in Kosovo conflict, invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan).

Right, but some people never want to let the facts get in the way of a good argument!

As has been pointed out already, the Republic of Georgia is part of the Bush Administration's naked ambition of becoming the controlling force in all of the former Soviet Republics. including the ones in Eastern Europe, Georgia, Ukraine, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan etc. -- encircling Russia with Nato allies armed with missiles, and ofcourse getting oil contracts and pipelines built to bring their oil to Western markets. Looking at the big picture, I don't blame the Russians for trying to project power and control countries that were formerly independent in name only during the Soviet Era.

And it's not surprising that the usual suspects here who determine what's good or bad by how it affects U.S. interests, are condemning Russia for invading Georgia, in spite of the undisputed fact that the Georgians started the war by bombing civilians (including Russians) living in Ossetia. And it should be noted that Russia has a case for promoting the independence movements in breakaway regions of Georgia and other republics because Nato set the precedent by supporting the breakup of Yugoslavia, followed by the breakup of Serbia, by supporting Kosovo's independence. And since the U.S. is tied up with Iraq and Afghanistan, they have nothing to offer, in the way of military assistance to their Georgian allies. Other allies who are trying to join Nato and the E.E.C., may be thinking that if they side with the West against Russia, they're on their own if a shooting war starts!